Yet another last place finish for America- paid vacations

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 10:26:14 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

May 29, 2013 9:54:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no, i want you to feel sad for a working mother who has zero days of PAID maternity leave.

Ummm, OK, taking care of an infant is not exactly a vacation.  Two very different things and arguments

NO- but if you have paid leave, YOU CAN TAKE IT, right?

if you have NONE, you can't.

so, when a working class poor woman gets pregnant, she loses those wages, and THEN, she has to get back to work ASAP.  does that strike you as "family values" friendly?

you know what the system is like in France right?  it is something like SIX MONTHS OF PAID MATERNITY LEAVE, followed by SOMETHING LIKE ANOTHER YEAR OF IN HOME DAYCARE, all at state expense.  i don't know ANYONE here- rich or poor- that got that.  everyone gets that in France, as a birthright.

we have our priorities totally f(*ked up, if you ask me.  what could be more precious than spending time with your baby?  you can never get that time back.  and neither can your kids.

[whoisjohngalt]

Yeah and where I am from you get a year of maternity leave.  And my parents still couldn't wait to get out of that country.

So, I guess if we look at one aspect of the country - sure, it's all fucked up, but don't French pay like 300% tax or something?

There are a lot of things that I don't like in US - but mostly it boils down to the fact that people think that they are owed something.  Again, everyone is very well aware of their rights.  it's responsibility that they are fuzzy on. 

Having a kid is not your birth right.  It's a privilege.   If you can't afford 6wks of not getting paid, you have much bigger problems that un-paid maternity leave or unpaid vacation.

And one more thing - family values?  who are we kidding??  we lost family values ages ago.  we think it's perfectly fine to have a kid any time you want to, doesn't matter for a second if you can take care of it, doesn't matter of the environment that kid will be raised in, so ok, have a kid - why should anyone else have to pay for it?

[The Captain]

Sooo

The other thing I have to point out is that on the list of so called "rich" countries three have already been bailed-out by the IMF and at least 7 others are on the red hot "watch" list.

How's those socialist policies working out for them?

[Deleted]

In Canada most maternity leaves are paid through the Employment Insurance system. The company only pays if it has been specifically negotiated in the individual contract. That mainly happens with higher paying jobs as EI tops at $480 a week or so.

A couple of people have already mentioned it, you can't really compare benefit like this. You need to compare the value of the whole compensation packages between countries, then factor for the differances in COL.

[formerroomate99]

Yeah, if we're going to have more generous maternity leave policies, it would make sense to have it structured like unemployment insurance rather than forcing companies to pay for it directly, otherwise, it would make it nearly impossible for a woman of childbearing age to get a job at a small company. 

we have our priorities totally f(*ked up, if you ask me. what could be more precious than spending time with your baby? you can never get that time back. and neither can your kids.

No, this country doesn't have it's priorities messed  up, the individual people have their priorities messed up.  There is a reason that some of us make something of ourselves, get into a committed relationship with someone who isn't a leach, and save some money before having a baby, and it isn't because we're all materialistic and greedy.  It is wanting to be able to actually spend time with our children, and be relaxed and secure when we had them.  People who care about their future children get their ducks in a row before having them.  People who don't, don't. 

I would fully support baby daddies being required to pay much larger amounts of child support.  And even though I'm done with having kids, I wouldn't mind paying into a maternity leave insurance that was structured like unemployment insurance.  But the fact of the matter is that people can choose whether or not to have children, and people who actually care about what kind of lives their children will have look at the situation as it is and make decisions from there.  If a man and woman don't care enough about the child they are creating to get their ducks in a row procreating, the blame falls on them, not society. 

[Deleted]

May 29, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sooo

The other thing I have to point out is that on the list of so called "rich" countries three have already been bailed-out by the IMF and at least 7 others are on the red hot "watch" list.

How's those socialist policies working out for them?

Ya know, I'd be real careful with the gloating. Those socialist countries are a lot older than your country and have had their day in the sun. Your turn is coming and it's going to get here faster. Those countries are thousands of years old, you guys are only 200 or so and you pretty much owe your soul to China already.

[Deleted]

May 29, 2013 12:17:20 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

May 29, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sooo

The other thing I have to point out is that on the list of so called "rich" countries three have already been bailed-out by the IMF and at least 7 others are on the red hot "watch" list.

How's those socialist policies working out for them?

Ya know, I'd be real careful with the gloating. Those socialist countries are a lot older than your country and have had their day in the sun. Your turn is coming and it's going to get here faster. Those countries are thousands of years old, you guys are only 200 or so and you pretty much owe your soul to China already.

It's not because of me...

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Yeah and where I am from you get a year of maternity leave.  And my parents still couldn't wait to get out of that country.

anecdotal, unless you are from France.

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

So, I guess if we look at one aspect of the country - sure, it's all fucked up, but don't French pay like 300% tax or something?

hyperbole.  the effective tax rate in France is 43%

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

And one more thing - family values?  who are we kidding??  we lost family values ages ago. 

i was being ironic, whois.  aka "kidding".

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sooo

The other thing I have to point out is that on the list of so called "rich" countries three have already been bailed-out by the IMF and at least 7 others are on the red hot "watch" list.

How's those socialist policies working out for them?

you are cherry picking.  Norway is running a budget surplus, and it is about as "socialist" as you can get.  there are other factors at play that "socialism" doesn't account for.

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:13:19 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

In Canada most maternity leaves are paid through the Employment Insurance system. The company only pays if it has been specifically negotiated in the individual contract. That mainly happens with higher paying jobs as EI tops at $480 a week or so.

A couple of people have already mentioned it, you can't really compare benefit like this. You need to compare the value of the whole compensation packages between countries, then factor for the differances in COL.

i agree completely.  and the flip side of that argument is that you can't say that since France is paying 43% effective tax, and the US is about 15% lower, we are getting the better deal.  we pay over 15% for our healthcare HERE, and it is included in their taxes THERE.

[Deleted]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gross_government_debt


Country 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016

France 86.811 89.371 90.706 92.750 95.681 98.683


Italy 121.065 121.385 122.105 124.403 126.319 128.089

Japan 233.100 238.441 242.927 245.854 249.916 253.388



Mexico 42.897 43.637 43.518 43.430 43.269 43.182

Norway 55.420 57.420 59.420 61.420 63.420 65.420
Portugal 106.030 111.793 114.928 114.599 112.540 110.493

Singapore 93.470 90.062 87.799 85.286 83.133 81.704
Slovak Republic 44.941 46.938 47.112 46.869 46.110 45.387
Slovenia 43.638 47.160 49.216 50.798 52.117 53.497

Spain 67.423 70.151 72.805 76.866 80.130 85.416
Sweden 36.033 38.586 41.158 45.731 47.436 51.251
Switzerland 52.435 51.188 49.989 49.067 47.722 46.414

Taiwan 38.455 40.887 42.454 44.077 45.842 50.714

United Kingdom 80.762 86.810 91.700 97.101 103.060 115.386
United States 100.046 110.031 128.930 141.363 153.195 165.394

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:15:37 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Yeah, if we're going to have more generous maternity leave policies, it would make sense to have it structured like unemployment insurance rather than forcing companies to pay for it directly, otherwise, it would make it nearly impossible for a woman of childbearing age to get a job at a small company. 

we have our priorities totally f(*ked up, if you ask me. what could be more precious than spending time with your baby? you can never get that time back. and neither can your kids.

No, this country doesn't have it's priorities messed  up, the individual people have their priorities messed up.  There is a reason that some of us make something of ourselves, get into a committed relationship with someone who isn't a leach, and save some money before having a baby, and it isn't because we're all materialistic and greedy.  It is wanting to be able to actually spend time with our children, and be relaxed and secure when we had them.  People who care about their future children get their ducks in a row before having them. 

well, then we have 200M adults that have f(*ked up priorities, since we have sentenced our children to pay for $16T worth of our follies.

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:17:20 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

May 29, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sooo

The other thing I have to point out is that on the list of so called "rich" countries three have already been bailed-out by the IMF and at least 7 others are on the red hot "watch" list.

How's those socialist policies working out for them?

Ya know, I'd be real careful with the gloating. Those socialist countries are a lot older than your country and have had their day in the sun. Your turn is coming and it's going to get here faster. Those countries are thousands of years old, you guys are only 200 or so and you pretty much owe your soul to China already.

i think it is really funny that the former USSR has half the debt load we do.  i would be surprised if China didn't.  they are about as "socialist" as you get.

[Deleted]

May 29, 2013 12:42:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 29, 2013 12:17:20 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Ya know, I'd be real careful with the gloating. Those socialist countries are a lot older than your country and have had their day in the sun. Your turn is coming and it's going to get here faster. Those countries are thousands of years old, you guys are only 200 or so and you pretty much owe your soul to China already.

i think it is really funny that the former USSR has half the debt load we do.  i would be surprised if China didn't.  they are about as "socialist" as you get.

www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/01/28/is-china-next-to-suffer-a-debt-crisis/

Despite its high level of total government liabilities $23-46 trillion yuan – the government’s balance sheet remains healthy. China’s debt-to-GDP ratio is around 65 percent compared to over 100 percent for the U.S. and more than 200 percent for Japan, including all public debt and contingent liabilities.

The latest available Ministry of Finance data showed that in 2009, assets of state-owned enterprises (SOEs) totaled $53.3 trillion, of which $27.9 trillion belonged to the central government and $25.5 trillion belonged to local governments. In other words, right now, the central government’s assets are still sufficient to cover its liabilities.

Second, the Chinese government remains in a strong fiscal position, owing to rapid revenue growth from taxes and fees and Beijing’s prudent fiscal management. Fiscal revenue rose 25 percent to a record $10.4 trillion in 2011. The total budget deficit was just 1.1 percent of GDP, even after a 21 percent yearl increase in expenditures to $10.9 trillion, Barclays reported. Even including contingent liabilities, total public debt remains manageable. Using different assumptions of the country’s pension fund gap, the ratio of China’s national debt to its GDP ranges from 62 percent to a high 97 percent.

Lastly, China has several options available to finance its rising liabilities. Barclays sees the pension fund problem being the biggest long term drain on government resources. The one-child policy has led to less workers supporting more retirees.

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:40:26 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gross_government_debt


Country 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016

France 86.811 89.371 90.706 92.750 95.681 98.683


Italy 121.065 121.385 122.105 124.403 126.319 128.089

Japan 233.100 238.441 242.927 245.854 249.916 253.388



Mexico 42.897 43.637 43.518 43.430 43.269 43.182

Norway 55.420 57.420 59.420 61.420 63.420 65.420
Portugal 106.030 111.793 114.928 114.599 112.540 110.493

Singapore 93.470 90.062 87.799 85.286 83.133 81.704
Slovak Republic 44.941 46.938 47.112 46.869 46.110 45.387
Slovenia 43.638 47.160 49.216 50.798 52.117 53.497

Spain 67.423 70.151 72.805 76.866 80.130 85.416
Sweden 36.033 38.586 41.158 45.731 47.436 51.251
Switzerland 52.435 51.188 49.989 49.067 47.722 46.414

Taiwan 38.455 40.887 42.454 44.077 45.842 50.714

United Kingdom 80.762 86.810 91.700 97.101 103.060 115.386
United States 100.046 110.031 128.930 141.363 153.195 165.394

i downloaded that.  i think those projections are way off in a number of cases.  particularly ours.

[Deleted]

Lets wait and see.dj

I hope you are right!

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:48:10 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

May 29, 2013 12:42:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think it is really funny that the former USSR has half the debt load we do.  i would be surprised if China didn't.  they are about as "socialist" as you get.

www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/01/28/is-china-next-to-suffer-a-debt-crisis/

Despite its high level of total government liabilities $23-46 trillion yuan – the government’s balance sheet remains healthy. China’s debt-to-GDP ratio is around 65 percent compared to over 100 percent for the U.S. and more than 200 percent for Japan, including all public debt and contingent liabilities.

The latest available Ministry of Finance data showed that in 2009, assets of state-owned enterprises (SOEs) totaled $53.3 trillion, of which $27.9 trillion belonged to the central government and $25.5 trillion belonged to local governments. In other words, right now, the central government’s assets are still sufficient to cover its liabilities.

Second, the Chinese government remains in a strong fiscal position, owing to rapid revenue growth from taxes and fees and Beijing’s prudent fiscal management. Fiscal revenue rose 25 percent to a record $10.4 trillion in 2011. The total budget deficit was just 1.1 percent of GDP, even after a 21 percent yearl increase in expenditures to $10.9 trillion, Barclays reported. Even including contingent liabilities, total public debt remains manageable. Using different assumptions of the country’s pension fund gap, the ratio of China’s national debt to its GDP ranges from 62 percent to a high 97 percent.

Lastly, China has several options available to finance its rising liabilities. Barclays sees the pension fund problem being the biggest long term drain on government resources. The one-child policy has led to less workers supporting more retirees.

their high end is our low end.  they are doing fine.  and it might happen in their case.  they want a modern society.

[djAdvocate]

May 29, 2013 12:52:18 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Lets wait and see.dj

I hope you are right!

our projections are based on paying out 100% on SS and MC.  it is just not going to happen.

some would call that "opinion".  i call it fact.

[whoisjohngalt]

May 29, 2013 12:32:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Yeah and where I am from you get a year of maternity leave.  And my parents still couldn't wait to get out of that country.

anecdotal, unless you are from France.

Nope, not from France, I guess it doesn't count then.   Too bad, bc not only you get a year once you pop a kid, you actually get a few weeks BEFORE you due date, so you don't have to work until the second you go into labor. 

[whoisjohngalt]

May 29, 2013 12:42:33 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 29, 2013 12:17:20 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

Ya know, I'd be real careful with the gloating. Those socialist countries are a lot older than your country and have had their day in the sun. Your turn is coming and it's going to get here faster. Those countries are thousands of years old, you guys are only 200 or so and you pretty much owe your soul to China already.

i think it is really funny that the former USSR has half the debt load we do.  i would be surprised if China didn't.  they are about as "socialist" as you get.

See, that 1 yr maternity leave did them wonders

[Deleted]

May 29, 2013 12:53:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 29, 2013 12:52:18 GMT -5 @snowbird said:

Lets wait and see.dj

I hope you are right!

our projections are based on paying out 100% on SS and MC.  it is just not going to happen.

some would call that "opinion".  i call it fact.

I understand what you are saying. dj

Whose winding up paying the consequence of mismanagement it will mostly fall on bottom of the society.  Also it's not fair to 99% of population,  law abiding, tax paying citizen of this country. Too many promises and  mismanagements is dragging us all down. 

[Angel!]

May 28, 2013 21:11:01 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

do you know of someone who doesnt get a vacation at their current job?

it may not be in the law....but i know of no company that doesnt give them

Seriously?  I have worked so many jobs where I didn't get vacation or sick time.  I had 3 jobs between 24-27.  The first offered neither & I got let go for taking 2 unpaid sick days.  I was literally too sick to work & had a doctors note & everything, although in retrospect it was a blessing because that was a crappy job & I would not have left on my own. 

The second job I was a manager, again got neither & was working 40-50 hrs/wk.  I left because I was going through a divorce & needed a job with insurance.  I was bummed because that was the most fun job I ever had & I was making major OT pay, but I have health issues & pre-existing conditions & need insurance. 

The third I was again a manager working 60+ hrs/wk.  I don't recall their sick policy, although taking a sick day would have been near impossible because you needed someone to cover the store.  I do remember I would get 3 vacation days after working there for a whole year.  I didn't last a year, I was exhausted & couldn't cut the 65 hours/wk ad infinitum & left the company.  At least they offered insurance though .

I am not even counting all the jobs I worked as a teen where most workers were part time & you would expect no sick or vacation time.  These were jobs I worked full-time as an adult, with other adults.

[The Captain]

May 29, 2013 13:05:50 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 28, 2013 21:11:01 GMT -5 @gdgyva said:

do you know of someone who doesnt get a vacation at their current job?

it may not be in the law....but i know of no company that doesnt give them

Seriously?  I have worked so many jobs where I didn't get vacation or sick time.  I had 3 jobs between 24-27.  The first offered neither & I got let go for taking 2 unpaid sick days.  I was literally too sick to work & had a doctors note & everything, although in retrospect it was a blessing because that was a crappy job & I would not have left on my own. 

The second job I was a manager, again got neither & was working 40-50 hrs/wk.  I left because I was going through a divorce & needed a job with insurance.  I was bummed because that was the most fun job I ever had & I was making major OT pay, but I have health issues & pre-existing conditions & need insurance. 

The third I was again a manager working 60+ hrs/wk.  I don't recall their sick policy, although taking a sick day would have been near impossible because you needed someone to cover the store.  I do remember I would get 3 vacation days after working there for a whole year.  I didn't last a year, I was exhausted & couldn't cut the 65 hours/wk ad infinitum & left the company.  At least they offered insurance though .

I am not even counting all the jobs I worked as a teen where most workers were part time & you would expect no sick or vacation time.  These were jobs I worked full-time as an adult, with other adults.

Angel - if you don't mind my asking, what were the jobs/industries you were working in?

Apparently my experience of full time employment = sick and vacation time is not always the norm and I'd curious as to what industries have it.

[Deleted]

small mom and pop business or part of a larger corporation

let me guess

small mom and pop retail stores in like a mall setting.....

total employees at or near 10

other guess would be a mom and pop gas/service station convenience store

what most would call on this board...low skill jobs

please correct me if i am wrong.....

and yes...there are places like that that do not cater to their employees

they dont have to......too many people willing to work under those pay/hours/conditions because they have zero alternatives

[Angel!]

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Having a kid is not your birth right.  It's a privilege.  

I disagree. Since we are biologically programmed to want children (in general) & have the natural ability, then I think it is a birth right. 

Having a driver's license is a privilege.  Having children I can do without seeking approval from anyone or needing any help (other than some guy willing to have sex).  I think that ability makes it a birth right.

Now there are a lot of laws about taking care of kids, so I suppose the abiilty to legally keep my kids is not a birth right, but rather a privilege.  But, the ability to reproduce - I think the laws against forced sterilization & forced abortion prove that it is a birth right no one can take away.

[Angel!]

May 29, 2013 13:14:33 GMT -5 The Captain said:

May 29, 2013 13:05:50 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Seriously?  I have worked so many jobs where I didn't get vacation or sick time.  I had 3 jobs between 24-27.  The first offered neither & I got let go for taking 2 unpaid sick days.  I was literally too sick to work & had a doctors note & everything, although in retrospect it was a blessing because that was a crappy job & I would not have left on my own. 

The second job I was a manager, again got neither & was working 40-50 hrs/wk.  I left because I was going through a divorce & needed a job with insurance.  I was bummed because that was the most fun job I ever had & I was making major OT pay, but I have health issues & pre-existing conditions & need insurance. 

The third I was again a manager working 60+ hrs/wk.  I don't recall their sick policy, although taking a sick day would have been near impossible because you needed someone to cover the store.  I do remember I would get 3 vacation days after working there for a whole year.  I didn't last a year, I was exhausted & couldn't cut the 65 hours/wk ad infinitum & left the company.  At least they offered insurance though .

I am not even counting all the jobs I worked as a teen where most workers were part time & you would expect no sick or vacation time.  These were jobs I worked full-time as an adult, with other adults.

Angel - if you don't mind my asking, what were the jobs/industries you were working in?

Apparently my experience of full time employment = sick and vacation time is not always the norm and I'd curious as to what industries have it.

Sure, the first job was a Sallie Mae call center that employed around 500 people at that single location. I was a nobody that just answered phones, so not a huge surprise I wasn't eligible for sick/vacation/insurance, but it was a full time job. It was a surprise when they let me go for taking 2 sick days though, because I was one of their better employees in the area that I was in & had been trained for multiple schools, whereas most people only took calls for 1 school.  But, then they seemed more worried about little shit than anything.  That was the only time in my life where I had been lectured for returning from my 10 minute break one (yes one) minute late - only did that once . 

The second was WIS international - a nationwide inventory company.  I was a manager & driver & ran inventories for several of their stores.  That job had a lot of travel & was a blast & you made major OT.   I seriously loved that job, although most people hated it.

The third was Family Dollar - a nationwide dollar store chain.  I was a store manager.  The pay wasn't too bad considering - $30K/yr & they had decent insurance.  But when you realized you were expected to put in massive hours in order to meet payroll & the $30K was salary, then it wasn't so great.  I believe I was told the minimum hours/wk was 55 when hired, but in reality I was working closer to 65 hours/wk because you needed the store minimally covered at all times & you had to be able to cover truck day & they wouldn't give me the payroll to give the other employees more hours.  I couldn't cut it, it wore me down quickly & I am amazed at the managers that had been running their stores for years.  If I had vacation time at that job I might have lasted, but 60+ hrs/wk with no foreseeable break in the future was too much for me.

Oh, and linking this to another thread - I got the Family Dollar job because of who I knew & networking.  I often ran the inventories for Family Dollars & ended up working with the DM for that area many times & he was impressed with me.  So when they needed a new store manager - I was in - he knew I was looking for a job that offered insurance.  I kind of feel bad that I majorly failed at that job & didn't last, but such is life I guess.  

[Deleted]

Sallie Mae recognizes the importance of balancing your
work life and your personal life. Employees will accrue paid
time off (PTO) based on length of service with Sallie Mae.
PTO for part-time employees is pro-rated based on hours
worked.
Full-time employees are eligible to use PTO after the
completion of 90 days of employment and accrue PTO
hours each pay period as follows:
PTO Schedule
Years of Service
Grades     3-6
Grades     7-9
Grades    10-14 
Up to 1 Year Anniversary 15 20 25
                    1-4 Years 20 20 25
                    5-9 Years 25 25 25
                   10+ Years 30 30 30

www.salliemae.com/assets/about/BenefitsGuide2013.pdf

seems Sallie Mae changed their policies majorly....even part timers get PTO


apparently family dollar has some major employment issues

see attached     ctemployeerightsblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/23/connecticut-judge-allows-family-dollar-store-managers-to-go-to-trial/


Connecticut judge allows Family Dollar store managers to go to trial!

Posted on May 23, 2013 by Richard Hayber


A judge in Connecticut today denied a motion by Family Dollar Stores to dismiss an overtime lawsuit against it brought by store managers. The store managers claim that they are not primarily managers – a requirement to deny them overtime. Instead, they claim that they are primarily engaged in non-exempt work such as unloading trucks, stocking shelves and ringing the cash register.

Family Dollar filed a motion arguing that their status as managers made the managers despite how they spent their time. The judge rejected this argument and ruled that a jury gets to decide the facts.

This ruling could have repercussions around the country since there are many more store manager lawsuits like this one in other states including Pennsylvania, Colorado, Missouri and Massachusetts. Recently, Family Dollar settled a similar lawsuit in New York for $15,000,000.

The Connecticut store managers are represented by the Hayber Law FIrm in Hartford, Connecticut.


never heard of the other....

so my % may be slightly off.....

i know in today's world, in order to attract and RETAIN the top people, you must offer a competitive pay and benefit package

there is very little loyalty.....people will change if they arent getting what they think they are worth, or if they perceive the grass is greener elsewhere

[whoisjohngalt]

May 29, 2013 13:18:17 GMT -5 Angel! said:

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Having a kid is not your birth right.  It's a privilege.  

I disagree. Since we are biologically programmed to want children (in general) & have the natural ability, then I think it is a birth right. 

Having a driver's license is a privilege.  Having children I can do without seeking approval from anyone or needing any help (other than some guy willing to have sex).  I think that ability makes it a birth right.

Now there are a lot of laws about taking care of kids, so I suppose the abiilty to legally keep my kids is not a birth right, but rather a privilege.  But, the ability to reproduce - I think the laws against forced sterilization & forced abortion prove that it is a birth right no one can take away.

See, again - rights rights rights.  What about the flip side of rights - responsibility?  So, we can't force you to abort and we can't force you to tie your tubes and evidently - we can't force you to take care of your kid either.  Yep, everyone knows all about rights.

Bc if you have the right to pop out a kid anytime you want, shouldn't we have the right to refuse to take care of him?  But OMG, that would be too inhumane, wouldn't it?