Yet another last place finish for America- paid vacations

[Deleted]

May 30, 2013 21:25:33 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

But really, Europe, Korea and Japan have all had their national defense paid for on America's dime, so while they may do some things better than we do, and we probably have much to learn from them, you can't really say they are doing things on thier own.

You didn't do that out of the goodness of your heart. You wanted control of their foreign policy. Besides, how would you employ all those young men if you didn't have a vibrant military?

Again, zero basis in fact. Please read up on global history starting with the end of WWII

[djAdvocate]

May 30, 2013 20:54:21 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

It's a lot easier to do when they are free-riders on global security (not talking about active wars) and medical research. And that in turn makes it a heck of a lot harder on us. Why so few people care is beyond me.

totally true.  we should stop that.  now.  like, today.  and i care to an almost painful degree.  it frustrates me more than most would imagine.

[djAdvocate]

May 31, 2013 5:42:43 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

May 30, 2013 21:25:33 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

You didn't do that out of the goodness of your heart. You wanted control of their foreign policy. Besides, how would you employ all those young men if you didn't have a vibrant military?

Again, zero basis in fact. Please read up on global history starting with the end of WWII

agree with ib, here.  we were the in the post war period.  right up until the Cold War.  we did many many things for the benefit of OTHERS.

[formerroomate99]

May 30, 2013 21:25:33 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

But really, Europe, Korea and Japan have all had their national defense paid for on America's dime, so while they may do some things better than we do, and we probably have much to learn from them, you can't really say they are doing things on thier own.

You didn't do that out of the goodness of your heart. You wanted control of their foreign policy. Besides, how would you employ all those young men if you didn't have a vibrant military?

I'm not talking about motivations, I'm talking about paying the bills.  Europe, Japan and Korea have not been paying all of their own bills, and because of this, it is much easier for them to provide extras to their citizens. 

If my kids go to private school and get a free ride through college because my family is paying my mortgage, while my coworker's kids go to public school and end up with student loans from college because he has to pay his own mortgage, you can't really say that I'm the better parent or the better money manager because somebody else is paying my bills.   

[Deleted]

Even when you count private landowners most of them are not 1%ers, and I doubt more that 10% goes to the 1%. There is far mor govt land/water for producing energy that there is private. And the govt by far receives the biggest chunk of what you pay at the pump. Probably 40-50% to the govt, and most of the rest goes to direct and indirect labor, followed by royalties and lastly profits. And most of the dividends and cap gains go to the middle class.

We tax fuel higher here than you do and it's only ~30%; counting labour and other production costs is disingenuous, we are talking about profits here that could be spent on social programs; oil is not the only natural resource you have; and finally the dividend and cap gain arguement goes back to a debate about who makes money in the stock market and we are going to have to agree to disagree about that.

[Deleted]

agree with ib, here. we were the in the post war period. right up until the Cold War. we did many many things for the benefit of OTHERS

No, you paid for the military to gain control and further your own agenda. Namely to perpetuate your preferred economic and political systems, to gain control of the oil you need to run your country and to secure markets for your goods. Any benefit to others was incidental and almost unavoidable on your part.

[Deleted]

Please read up on global history starting with the end of WWII

Or you could read some not written by American propagandists. 

[djAdvocate]

two things very clear from this thread:

1) we don't take criticism well
2) we seem to be mistaking "industriousness" with "cheapness".

reason being that nobody holds a gun to your head and forces you to take vacation.  if you choose not to take it, then it ONLY makes you industrious if you were offered it in the first place.  the whole point of the OP is that it is not offered.  therefore, the argument that we are industrious cannot be shown based on the OP.  only that our businesses are stingy in terms of benefits.

[Deleted]

We tax fuel higher here than you do and it's only ~30%; counting labour and other production costs is disingenuous, we are talking about profits here that could be spent on social programs

You said revenue, not profit.  If it's profit, you can't even count royalties, which is an expense that reduces profit.  You're still confused.  And like I said, even if you just look at profits, nowhere near 99% of the profit goes to the 1%.  Only a small % of oil company stock is held by the rich.  Most is held by pensions, mutual funds, etc.  Those primarily benefit those who are not rich.

And lastly, you have gasoline taxes of about 15%, you have business income taxes of something like 39%, you have sales taxes, you have royalties to governments, etc.  It's at or near 50%.  If you include foreign oil and payments to foreign gov'ts, it's more than 50%. 

You're still not even close to understanding how things actually work.

[Deleted]

Or you could read some not written by American propagandists.

I'd rather you explain your position.

[Deleted]

May 31, 2013 14:04:17 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Or you could read some not written by American propagandists.

I'd rather you explain your position.

LOL what's to explain? Each place that you choose to impose your military has an advantage to you to further your own agenda. For a long time that agenda was to limit Russia's power in the world and stunt the growth of communism world wide. Actually that is why you ended up with as many social programs as you have, the powers that be did not want the peons to get unhappy enough to look at communisma as a serious option. It is not coincidental that the social programs have been stripped back so dramatically since the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Deleted]

Oh ya, I almost forgot about the military employing all those young men. Seriously, how would you have kept them gainfully employed otherwise? One of the biggest contributors to unemplyment, which so few people want to really, truly think about, is that we have a larger labour force world wide than we need to produce goods and toys for ourselves in a industrialised/computerised age. People say "create jobs" without thinking through what that implies the problem is. If all of your military suddenly became unemployed what would happen?

[Deleted]

You're meandering into different topics.  Take Japan, for instance.  They were prohibited from having their own military for a very good reason.  And after WWII, the US was the only Ally country that was not decimated.  We became the lone superpower in large part because Europe simply could not do it themselves.  And we maintained a global presence because without it, some hypothetical future world war could not be won without it.

Let's go back to your 99% to 1% comment about oil.  The issue is much more clear cut.

[Deleted]

You're meandering into different topics. Take Japan, for instance. They were prohibited from having their own military for a very good reason. And after WWII, the US was the only Ally country that was not decimated. We became the lone superpower in large part because Europe simply could not do it themselves. And we maintained a global presence because without it, some hypothetical future world war could not be won without it.

That is a diplomatic way af admitting exactly what I said. All those other ally countries were decimated because of proximity to the actual fighting and the fact that had been fighting for a few years before you guys decided it was in your best interests if the Nazi's didn't run the world.

Let's go back to your 99% to 1% comment about oil. The issue is much more clear cut.

I didn't make the comment about oil in specific. I had generalised it to natural resources as oil might be the main natural resource of the countries you were talking about, the legitimate comparison is to all natural resources. Most of the resources are privately owned and the profits mostly end up with the very rich. I didn't literally mean 99% and 1%, I was in a hurry and unfortunately used the first numbers that came to mind. I contend that the middle class only feed on the table scraps of the stock market and eventually there is always a "market correction" that strangely enough ends up in the middle class losing large chunks of their earnings and the big boys making money. Just enough middle class folks actually make money at it to keep the myth alive.

[Deleted]

I didn't make the comment about oil in specific.

Yes, you did.

I didn't literally mean 99% and 1%, I was in a hurry and unfortunately used the first numbers that came to mind.

That's fine, but to make your comment accurate, you have to change the 1% to probably close to 100%.  So even not taken literally, your comment didn't make sense.

and eventually there is always a "market correction" that strangely enough ends up in the middle class losing large chunks of their earnings and the big boys making money

It's not strange.  It's the logical result of the masses doing things they don't understand.  They always wait until the end to pile on.  They are almost always the ones that create the unsustainable bubbles, and the people who do know what they are doing are smart enough to get out before they lose their shirt.

[Queen of Interesting Nuts]

I don't have much to add to this as I haven't read everything but bringing Europe into it and specifically the UK makes me want to comment.

We really in the end do not want to be like England, I guarantee it that people here do not know what they are in for if that is what we are going after. Add to that, everyone in England is miserable and not just about the weather.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 1, 2013 21:04:04 GMT -5 Queen of Interesting Nuts said:

I don't have much to add to this as I haven't read everything but bringing Europe into it and specifically the UK makes me want to comment.

We really in the end do not want to be like England, I guarantee it that people here do not know what they are in for if that is what we are going after. Add to that, everyone in England is miserable and not just about the weather.

England is more like the US than it is like Europe in many ways.  and not just in terms of language.

[Queen of Interesting Nuts]

Oh no, I don't think so AT ALL.

[justme]

I contend that the middle class only feed on the table scraps of the stock market and eventually there is always a "market correction" that strangely enough ends up in the middle class losing large chunks of their earnings and the big boys making money. Just enough middle class folks actually make money at it to keep the myth alive.

Because just enough middle class folks have an interest to do research and take a long view while the rest listen to their cabbie and news stories and buy high - making prices go even higher creating a bubble - and then when the market correction inevitably comes they freak out and sell low thinking the stock market is suddenly going to be 0 the next day. I mean, really, the stock market isn't some huge conspiracy of the rich - it's well documented that it has highs and lows but overall goes up and if there's a sudden run up a correction is around the corner, but then it will recover. Too much of the middle class manage money with emotions.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 28, 2013 19:21:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/05/28/18473813-no-paid-vacation-you-must-be-an-american?lite

" The United States is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation....The researchers found that every country they examined, except the United States, had laws requiring employers to offer somewhere between 10 and 30 paid vacation days a year"

Nuff said- but no surprise considering we feel the same way about providing health care. Do we just collectively not give a shit about each other or what? Or I should say- collectively not give a shit about the low wage workers that do the things we would rather not do- since they are the ones getting hammered on things like this. When did we become this way? At one point workers had some power- and now it is worker against worker for the benefit of neither.

"'I don’t know of any compelling reason why the government has to decide for people in what way they want to get paid,'said Andrew Biggs, a resident scholar the the conservative-leaning American Enterprise Institute."

Way to spin that one- the big bad government interfering with one lowly employee trying to negotiate time off with some behemoth corporation. It isn't like those jobs are take it or leave it- oh wait- they are. Negotiation and employment contracts are for the C suite and a few unions. IMO any employer that doesn't allow vacation time is a scuzzball. Why not add a clause to the min. wage law requiring a min. time off allottment? We mandate holidays- can't we just give them a week? That too much to ask?

Vacations, like paychecks, are earned.  Why would anyone work for something that's guaranteed?  And why would anyone else work to provide a vacation to someone else who won't work and plan and save for one?  This is yet another stupid left wing Utopian pipe dream.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 29, 2013 12:33:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 29, 2013 11:52:18 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

So, I guess if we look at one aspect of the country - sure, it's all fucked up, but don't French pay like 300% tax or something?

hyperbole.  the effective tax rate in France is 43%

Link?

[chiver78]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I will say that my American start-up that was purchased by a French company just over 2 years ago allows me 5 weeks* of vacation, 3 personal days, 2 floating holidays, and a week's company shutdown between Christmas and New Year's.....not to mention 7 paid sick days. My current manager - in one of many ways he's a breath of fresh air in the 5 months he's been my boss - insists that we take all of our allotment, and will move heaven and earth if it's within his power in order for us to do so.

*5 weeks because I've been with the company 12 years next month. if I make it another 8, I'll pick up another week.

that said, before the corporate purchase, I still had 4 weeks vacation, and a couple floaters and personal days, plus the same sick time (I think.....I've used all of it exactly once - the year my Nana passed, I'd chalk up a couple hours to sick time if I didn't feel like making up the time for my long lunches to visit her at the hospital in the same town where I work. nobody had a problem with it.)

[Deleted]

I do admit it would probably do us all good to take a little more time off.  Oddly, I feel guilty sometimes when I take vacation.  Not that it stops me.  I only have 3 weeks, but I've never used it all.  I always want to build up my bank.  But I make a lot more money here than I would in Europe, I have a much better standard of living, and I'm on track to retire at 50.  So I think it's a decent tradeoff.

At my previous job, I had just hit 4 weeks and my bank was full.  Had I stayed, I don't know what I would have done with myself.  As crazy as it sounds, I almost wouldn't know what to do with 4 weeks.  I think I'd rather take a bunch of Fridays off than take long vacations.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 31, 2013 9:46:19 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 30, 2013 20:54:21 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

It's a lot easier to do when they are free-riders on global security (not talking about active wars) and medical research. And that in turn makes it a heck of a lot harder on us. Why so few people care is beyond me.

totally true.  we should stop that.  now.  like, today.  and i care to an almost painful degree.  it frustrates me more than most would imagine.

Totally in agreement here.  America's European Defense Welfare program had the same effect as any other welfare program- it made the recipients soft and lazy.  It allowed for Europe's 60 year failed social welfare experiment.  We basically subsidized a European socialist lecture that we've had to endure for half a century- (of which the OP is an all-too-common example).

[mmhmm]

This really belongs in Current Events.  I'm going to move it there.

mmhmm, P&M Moderator

[NastyWoman]

May 29, 2013 6:41:23 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Way to spin that one-

Yes, as usual, you did do a great job spinning a great story.

Speaking of, we were also just voted the 6th happiest country in the industrialized world.  Considering there's not a huge difference from one country to the next, I guess we're not doing all that bad.

I don't feel like reading 5 pages on this subject, however the above statement is only true if we are all Dutch.  The USA didn't even make it into the top ten...again!

[Deleted]

May 31, 2013 16:29:36 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

I didn't make the comment about oil in specific.

Yes, you did. I repeat, I had generalised to include all natural resources since the US does not have as much oil as other countries but does have as much in natural resources.

I didn't literally mean 99% and 1%, I was in a hurry and unfortunately used the first numbers that came to mind.

That's fine, but to make your comment accurate, you have to change the 1% to probably close to 100%.  So even not taken literally, your comment didn't make sense. Do you write off of talking points for the oil company or what? It is a small percentage of the population that makes money off of the American Oil.

and eventually there is always a "market correction" that strangely enough ends up in the middle class losing large chunks of their earnings and the big boys making money

It's not strange.  It's the logical result of the masses doing things they don't understand.  They always wait until the end to pile on.  They are almost always the ones that create the unsustainable bubbles, and the people who do know what they are doing are smart enough to get out before they lose their shirt.

Change masses to middle class and the people that know what they are doing to the big boys and we said the same thing.

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2013 16:33:12 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 29, 2013 6:41:23 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

Yes, as usual, you did do a great job spinning a great story.

Speaking of, we were also just voted the 6th happiest country in the industrialized world.  Considering there's not a huge difference from one country to the next, I guess we're not doing all that bad.

I don't feel like reading 5 pages on this subject, however the above statement is only true if we are all Dutch.  The USA didn't even make it into the top ten...again!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings

1 Costa Rica 64.0 7.3 79.3 2.5
2 Vietnam 60.4 5.8 75.2 1.4
3 Colombia 59.8 6.4 73.7 1.8
4 Belize 59.3 6.5 76.1 2.1
5 El Salvador 58.9 6.7 72.2 2.0
6 Jamaica 58.5 6.2 73.1 1.7
7 Panama 57.8 7.3 76.1 3.0
8 Nicaragua 57.1 5.7 74.0 1.6
9 Venezuela 56.9 7.5 74.4 3.0
10 Guatemala 56.9 6.3 71.2 1.8


50 France 46.5 6.8 81.5 4.9

[Deleted]

Just for fun, some of the oil barons you are claiming don't exist

www.forbes.com/2010/06/17/koch-hamm-bass-kaiser-business-energy-oil-billionaires.html

ETA - Here's another interesting article

Each worth more than a billion dollars, America's richest oilmen reign supreme in the United States gas and oil industry as well as among all people in the country. It is no coincidence that the richest oilmen are also some of the richest people in the United States, with many ranking on other top lists from Forbes magazine such as the Forbes 400 as the 400 richest people in America.

Read more at www.ranker.com/list/america_s-richest-oilmen/worlds-richest-people-lists#gSSt7SbmTkuAP3Bc.99

[djAdvocate]

Jun 2, 2013 13:11:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 29, 2013 12:33:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

hyperbole.  the effective tax rate in France is 43%

Link?

www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/10/focus-4

the economist is right of center.  they have no reason to understate France's tax rate.