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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 18:48:51 GMT -5
Warning: Rant ahead!
I have noticed lately that many people are throwing the term bullying around when they really mean other poor behaviors such as teasing or insulting someone. I'm bothered by this because I think that we are diminishing the seriousness of bullying when we use the term improperly.
Merriam Webster defines bullying as a blustering browbeating person; especially : one habitually cruel to others who are weaker.
There are people make cruel statements on this forum but that does not necessarily mean that they are bullying. The other half of this definition is not applicable.
The overweight newscaster Jennifer Livingston called the viewer who wrote her a letter criticizing her weight a bully. Was he really habitually cruel? Was she weaker? I don't think so. She shouldn't have gone on the air and said she wouldn't be bullied. She wasn't. She was the recipient of a very rude and inappropriate letter.
As the parent of a child who had his leg broken by a bully, I ask you to be more careful of the labels you apply to people's behavior. I have seen people make inappropriate and/or rude comments to others on the boards but in my opinion I have not witnessed bullying.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Apr 9, 2013 19:06:55 GMT -5
I have noticed this as well (IRL - not going to talk about YM). My son is repeatedly ostracized by his peers (autism) and I would say they are disrespectful/mean in how they treat him, but I do not call it bullying. It's more like there are a lot of kids out there who are assholes. Telling him he sucks at a game and therefore he can't play with them isn't bullying. Regularly searching him out at recess to steal his money would be. There are a lot of parents who get horrified when their child's feelings get hurt and call it bullying, but I think that takes the power out of the word and then the kids who really are being bullied don't get the attention their situation deserves. I'm so sorry about your son. ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/hug.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 19:18:03 GMT -5
Thanks. It happened last year. He is at a new high school and is doing great. It was a horrible experience for him but I am happy to say that he has moved past it and doing very well.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 9, 2013 19:20:23 GMT -5
I don't have kids in school and I didn't grow up in US, so my thoughts are based on what I hear other people say and what I read.
It seems that parents like to use the term bc there is much higher chance that it will get their problem more attention. "my child is being bullied'" vs "my child is being teased" - since EVERYONE and their mother is on this bullying thing right now. How many times we have had people on YM asked if kids are now worse than last generation? How many times people complain about "kids now-days".
I don't think kids are worse, I don't think problems are worse, but now we have a label that you KNOW will get attention and all of a sudden there is bullying everywhere.
And of course, before, if little Johny got his ass kicked in some little town in Indiana - no one knew about it. Now - it's national news within 5 minutes.
So, unfortunately, I think the people will be using the term more and more and we'll be hearing about it more and more
ETA: I can't imagine what you and your son went through and I truly hope he is OK, mentally and physically. I am so sorry.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Apr 9, 2013 19:29:33 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about your son. It sounds like he was not just bullied but also assaulted. This is what they both mean to me (I copied the portions that apply).
bul·ly·ing [ bllee ing ] - intimidation of weaker person: the process of intimidating or mistreating somebody weaker or in a more vulnerable situation
Synonyms: intimidation, mistreatment, oppression, harassment, victimization, maltreatment, hounding. as·sault [ ə sáwlt ] - physical or verbal attack: a violent physical or verbal attack
- threat of bodily harm: an unlawful threat or attempt to do violence or harm to somebody else
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 19:44:04 GMT -5
You're right POM. My son was assaulted. He was also bullied afterward. The friends of the student who broke my son's leg started to systematically harass and intimidate my son. It was retaliation for telling about the assault.
My frustration is not just with parents in schools claiming that their children are bullied when they are just teased but in the adults who use this term about themselves. I was irritated by the newscaster I referenced above and I am frustrated that I have seen posters on the boards here claim to be bullied when they really mean that they received a rude comment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 19:45:20 GMT -5
I'm not comfortable with needing a pattern to emerge before we are willing to call something bullying - it implies that it is okay to do these things as long as you only do them once or once in a while.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 9, 2013 19:46:01 GMT -5
It has a lot more effect, Caynne, to say "bullied"......
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Apr 9, 2013 19:51:20 GMT -5
But just because somebody's bones weren't broken doesn't mean they were not bullied.
Your last paragraph - are you talking about today? If so, I concur that it didn't fit.
Again, I'm really sorry your son had to go through that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 20:01:37 GMT -5
But just because somebody's bones weren't broken doesn't mean they were not bullied. Your last paragraph - are you talking about today? If so, I concur that it didn't fit. Again, I'm really sorry your son had to go through that. I am with Peace of Mind on this one ; and I am sorry about your son. Bullying is not limited to physical harm; not in today's world where kids have access to text message/ Facebook/ twitter etc. You don't have to inflict physical harm to make someone life a living hell. "Teasing" is only fun when you are not on the receiving end of it and to a kid that their self esteem is fragile, still unsure of themselves it is more than that. Ask the kids that committed suicide because they were teased at school or on Facebook constantly and their life was a living hell. Sorry you can't because they are no longer here. As a future parent you can bet your last dollar that I will use everything in my power to put an end to the teasing before it turns into bullying; my job as a parent is to protect my kid(s) and I won't give a flying fuck what distinction other parents will want to make between the two.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 9, 2013 20:25:02 GMT -5
Cyanne didn't say you had to be physically attacked for it to be bullying. Just that it had to be habitual/systemic not just someone saying one rude/mean comment. While I agree that when it comes to kids it doesn't seem like a good line to take that "oh once or twice, it's no big deal", but I also don't see making a federal case out of one or two comments either and kids should be taught to be able to ignore rude comments - IF it's a one-off. Now, when you're talking about adults, I think it is banded about a lot and people should be more careful about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 20:37:23 GMT -5
Cyanne didn't say you had to be physically attacked for it to be bullying. Just that it had to be habitual/systemic not just someone saying one rude/mean comment. While I agree that when it comes to kids it doesn't seem like a good line to take that "oh once or twice, it's no big deal", but I also don't see making a federal case out of one or two comments either and kids should be taught to be able to ignore rude comments - IF it's a one-off. Now, when you're talking about adults, I think it is banded about a lot and people should be more careful about it. I don't care about her comments about adults or this board but she wrote and I quote: So tell me, where do you draw the line? Once or twice? A week? A month? How is a parent to make the difference when they are not there? Tell your kid to suck it up and deal with it till they stop telling you about it? Or when they shoot up a school while you thought everything was ok? Commit suicide? What you might feel is "teasing" might be someone else "bullying" and telling parents to just deal with it and not make a big deal out of it to me is not the right approach.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 20:47:03 GMT -5
Also using the case of the OP; some parent might feel it was a case of "boys will be boys" and it is to be expected, what are you going to do about it!
They play rough, pick on each other and hey in the process some bones might get broken. Oh well, no hard feelings.
To them what happened to her son would not be bullying; after all boys have been doing that to each other since the beginning of times. He should take it like a man; brush it off his shoulders. I know that is what my dad would say, he is old school like that. Heck if I lost the fight, I would have gotten an extra beating when I got home.
** see the slippery slope. ***
I left high school over a decade ago, the players may have changed but the game remain the same.
They did not just one day out of the blue broke his leg. They started to feel him out, make sure he was a weak link. A tease here or there, see how he handles it. Make him an outsider, get others to pick on him, make fun of him. Then they probably increased in frequency, braking him slowly but surely from maybe just a tease or a bad joke to a few shoves here and there to make sure he knew who was in charge.
And one day it got out of hand and they broke his legs. But I am willing to bet that it all started with a simple "tease".
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Apr 9, 2013 20:51:15 GMT -5
My daughter was bullied in middle school. It had been going on for some time before I even knew about it. She didn't want to tell anyone what was going on. She thought that she should be able to handle it herself. That was one of the things that I had to pry out of her. By the time I found out this had been going on for about 2 months. Fortunately it was not as bad as what Cyanne's son had to endure but it was on going and systematically directed at my daughter. The teacher sat my DD next to these girls because she knew that my DD would sit and do her work and not be distracted by or further distract these two girls. It started with them taking her books and not giving them back and then spitting on the books before they did give them back. Then her books would disappear and show up in classroom where DD didn't even have a class, but these other girls did. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) By the time I found out what was going on they were shoving her down in the hallway and threatening to beat her up on the way home from school. One girl even followed her home from school one day (DD walked too and from school). One day they took DD's picture during class, for facebook, but at the time we didn't have internet at home so I'm not sure what they did with that. We were fortunate that the teacher took this very seriously and once I called her moved her to another seat immediately. The bully girl was put on notice that she was going to be watched. This bully also seemed to be one who looked for opportunity and once the opportunity was removed from her vicinity she moved on to some other misdeed. This girl dropped out of school in 10th grade so that was the end of that problem.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 9, 2013 21:03:12 GMT -5
I'm not comfortable with needing a pattern to emerge before we are willing to call something bullying - it implies that it is okay to do these things as long as you only do them once or once in a while. When someone behaves badly occasionally it isn't "bullying" it's something else. It isn't OK to do. I don't think anyone is saying that it's OK. I think when someone is being rude or obnoxious or just behaving badly - when they are called on it - they may actually stop (and not go plot revenge). It's been my experience that when a bully has been told to stop - especially by the person being bullied - the bully just laughs it off and continues the bad behavior. Then there's the escalation of bullying that can occur... that's way more than the occasional 'button pushing' or 'teasing' or whatever else a person does that makes another person feel uncomfortable. Generally, a non-bully who has behaved badly and who has been called out on it - will atleast attempt to refrain from antagonizing the other person (no matter how fun the non-bully feels it it or how much they dislike the other person). Maybe we need some different words - like harassment in addition to bullying.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 9, 2013 21:03:34 GMT -5
Cyanne didn't say you had to be physically attacked for it to be bullying. Just that it had to be habitual/systemic not just someone saying one rude/mean comment. While I agree that when it comes to kids it doesn't seem like a good line to take that "oh once or twice, it's no big deal", but I also don't see making a federal case out of one or two comments either and kids should be taught to be able to ignore rude comments - IF it's a one-off. Now, when you're talking about adults, I think it is banded about a lot and people should be more careful about it. I don't care about her comments about adults or this board but she wrote and I quote: So tell me, where do you draw the line? Once or twice? A week? A month? How is a parent to make the difference when they are not there? Tell your kid to suck it up and deal with it till they stop telling you about it? Or when they shoot up a school while you thought everything was ok? Commit suicide? What you might feel is "teasing" might be someone else "bullying" and telling parents to just deal with it and not make a big deal out of it to me is not the right approach. To me I'd definitely draw it at anything more once a week - that falls under habitual for me, especially for a child at school. Probably even every other week. As I said it's a difficult line to draw when it comes to kids and what's habitual/frequent, but I think it's one parents must help their kids learn to draw the line between stupid people and cruel people. I know there's a ton of instances and a lot of the line drawing comes down to how the person the actions are directed at feels. Obviously parents need to act in a the way they see best, and again there's no hard and fast rule of what is or isn't bullying. But if my hypothetical kid came home upset because they walked out of the bathroom with toilet paper attached to their shoe and everyone laughs of them, that's not bullying. I'd probably even say that it's not if some said something the next day either. I'd talk to my kid about it and tell them that it's mean and to remember that the next time someone else makes a mistake, but I wouldn't go deafon 11 or whatever down to the school about it. Kids are stupid, they lack impulse control, they're going to say stupid hurtful things. To me it's bullying when it's consistently the same person/people or the kids group up like a mob on someone. Or if the parent is knowledgeable that one kid is rotating who he attacks. Of course, this all also has to be taken with WHAT exactly is being said. There's a difference between someone saying "hey, you have something attached to your shoe" the next day when they don't and someone saying, aw hell I can't think of a great example something like "I guess you remembered to wipe this time since you left the toilet paper behind" or something. I think people need to take into account the nature of the comments/actions and the frequency before they jump to bullying, but I'm also not saying a kid has to be driven to suicide before it's bullying either. When it comes to kids it's better to err on the cautious side.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:04:35 GMT -5
Also using the case of the OP; some parent might feel it was a case of "boys will be boys" and it is to be expected, what are you going to do about it! They play rough, pick on each other and hey in the process some bones might get broken. Oh well, no hard feelings. To them what happened to her son would not be bullying; after all boys have been doing that to each other since the beginning of times. He should take it like a man; brush it off his shoulders. I know that is what my dad would say, he is old school like that. Heck if I lost the fight, I would have gotten an extra beating when I got home. ** see the slippery slope. *** I left high school over a decade ago, the players may have changed but the game remain the same. They did not just one day out of the blue broke his leg. They started to feel him out, make sure he was a weak link. A tease here or there, see how he handles it. Make him an outsider, get others to pick on him, make fun of him. Then they probably increased in frequency, braking him slowly but surely from maybe just a tease or a bad joke to a few shoves here and there to make sure he knew who was in charge. And one day it got out of hand and they broke his legs. But I am willing to bet that it all started with a simple "tease". Great points! I agree that teasing is not okay. In my opinion one comment said one time does not equal bullying. Once you get past that point then it does get more complicated. My problem is with people who cry bullying when it clearly is not. My frustration is with people who complain about being bullied when someone says something they don't like. My example of the newscaster is what I am talking about. She received a rude and inconsiderate letter. One rude letter is not bullying. I am tired of people using the term bullied when the behavior isn't bullying. I think it minimizes bullying when the last thing we as a society should be doing is minimizing it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:09:47 GMT -5
The overweight newscaster Jennifer Livingston called the viewer who wrote her a letter criticizing her weight a bully. Was he really habitually cruel? Was she weaker? I don't think so. She shouldn't have gone on the air and said she wouldn't be bullied. She wasn't. She was the recipient of a very rude and inappropriate letter. I think Jennifer Livingston past experiences may be one who is habitually spoken to concerning her weight by others, and felt the weight of having "just one more person" (albeit a complete stranger) criticizing her, as being bullied- Perceptional-ly speaking.. I do agree with the probable rudeness having not read the letter. In my experiences, bullies are persistent with their victims and most are found to be great BIG cowards too. I dare anyone to stand their ground with one.. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:15:25 GMT -5
My daughter was bullied in middle school. It had been going on for some time before I even knew about it. She didn't want to tell anyone what was going on. She thought that she should be able to handle it herself. That was one of the things that I had to pry out of her. By the time I found out this had been going on for about 2 months. Fortunately it was not as bad as what Cyanne's son had to endure but it was on going and systematically directed at my daughter. The teacher sat my DD next to these girls because she knew that my DD would sit and do her work and not be distracted by or further distract these two girls. It started with them taking her books and not giving them back and then spitting on the books before they did give them back. Then her books would disappear and show up in classroom where DD didn't even have a class, but these other girls did. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) By the time I found out what was going on they were shoving her down in the hallway and threatening to beat her up on the way home from school. One girl even followed her home from school one day (DD walked too and from school). One day they took DD's picture during class, for facebook, but at the time we didn't have internet at home so I'm not sure what they did with that. We were fortunate that the teacher took this very seriously and once I called her moved her to another seat immediately. The bully girl was put on notice that she was going to be watched. This bully also seemed to be one who looked for opportunity and once the opportunity was removed from her vicinity she moved on to some other misdeed. This girl dropped out of school in 10th grade so that was the end of that problem. I'm very sorry your daughter had to go through that. I'm glad that her teacher took it seriously. My son's previous school did NOT take it seriously. They didn't do anything except have the bully write a lame apology letter. I think their approach sent the message to others that there were no real consequences and encouraged the bully's friends to start verbally harassing my son for reporting the incident. They would float paper airplanes to him at his desk and yell "assault-call the police". The teachers never did anything about it. The bully and his friends told everyone else at school that my son was lying-after all if they had really broken his leg wouldn't they have been suspended?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:20:19 GMT -5
I really didn't write my rant to turn this into a personal story about my son. My concern is that when we use the words bully and bullying to describe less serious situations such as rude comments or a one-off teasing incident we end up minimizing the seriousness of bullying. My complaint was with adults who should know better using the term bullying when they really mean a mean or hurtful comment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:30:19 GMT -5
I really didn't write my rant to turn this into a personal story about my son. My concern is that when we use the words bully and bullying to describe less serious situations such as rude comments or a one-off teasing incident we end up minimizing the seriousness of bullying. My complaint was with adults who should know better using the term bullying when they really mean a mean or hurtful comment. And how would you know? Where you on the receiving end of it? That poster may have felt that because their position was not the norm they were getting ganged up on and being forced to change their stand because it did not fit the mole. Just like the overweight person you mention. Being told over and over and over again your fat, that last comment may have pushed her over the edge and she may have felt she was being bullied to lose weight. Her comment was probably not directed at that one writer but was meant for everyone that ever told her she was fat and she needed to lose weight. He just happened the one that made her go: I have enough of this shit. Unless you are on the receiving end of it, I say you have no right in telling adults how they should feel about a situation they are dealing with. What might feel like normal sex to me might come off as rough sex to my wife. Should I tell her she is wrong since in my mind it is normal and to just deal with it or should I tone it down because she is the one on the receiving end?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:45:31 GMT -5
The internet is a dangerous place. People often dispatch with the fake pleasantries exchanged in person and often give the unfiltered truth. Some people can't handle this and take to the high road; e.g. start name calling from their perch high above. Their dialog is of course justified and, in their mind, not inflaming the situation at all. Their pontifying is enlightening the bullies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 21:58:23 GMT -5
A gay boy at our local high school killed himself two years ago... When is teasing too much? I guess you have to ask the kid bing teased...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 22:01:40 GMT -5
Soooooo sorry to hear that Oped..
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Apr 9, 2013 22:03:40 GMT -5
I'm a bit confused. Are we talking about bullying as it pertains to children, or adults? Kids can definitely be bullied on the internet. That's because they know each other off the internet, in schools and in their neighborhoods. Bullying the kid down the street, or the new kid in class via Facebook transfers itself quite quickly to face-to-face bullying and mistreatment. That's an issue that needs to be dealt with. It can be very harmful to the victims, who aren't equipped to deal with that sort of thing appropriately.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 22:06:46 GMT -5
I didn't know him, but it hit the community hard. Lots of anti bullying initiatives were started after that. Not sure how they are working? My kids don't go to school.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 9, 2013 22:10:14 GMT -5
I will most likely get a lot of crap for this, but here is the thing - I wonder about all those kids killing themselves bc of bullying - is it really the bullying that is the problem or those kids had certain issues?
When I was a kid, I was bullied a lot bc of one aspect of who I am. In 1st or 2nd grade (can't remember) one girl told the rest of the girls not to be friends with me bc "Lena is xxx". It wasn't an isolated incident. I had to deal with it in school and outside. I also have been wearing glasses since I was 4 yrs old - if you only knew all the jokes and teasing I got bc of that. Whether I was 7 or 17 - not only it never occurred to me to kill myself, it really didn't traumatize me for life either. And I am sure I am not the only one.
Some people can just handle things better than others and yes, we should remember that when dealing with people. But it seems, just as with many other things, this bullying thing is getting out of control and not in a sense that kids are getting to be too cruel, but in a sense that we are suppose to be all those nice robots who don't say the wrong thing, don't do the wrong thing - and evidently it's suppose to start the day you are born. Doesn't work like that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 22:42:56 GMT -5
I will most likely get a lot of crap for this, but here is the thing - I wonder about all those kids killing themselves bc of bullying - is it really the bullying that is the problem or those kids had certain issues? When I was a kid, I was bullied a lot bc of one aspect of who I am. In 1st or 2nd grade (can't remember) one girl told the rest of the girls not to be friends with me bc "Lena is xxx". It wasn't an isolated incident. I had to deal with it in school and outside. I also have been wearing glasses since I was 4 yrs old - if you only knew all the jokes and teasing I got bc of that. Whether I was 7 or 17 - not only it never occurred to me to kill myself, it really didn't traumatize me for life either. And I am sure I am not the only one. Some people can just handle things better than others and yes, we should remember that when dealing with people. But it seems, just as with many other things, this bullying thing is getting out of control and not in a sense that kids are getting to be too cruel, but in a sense that we are suppose to be all those nice robots who don't say the wrong thing, don't do the wrong thing - and evidently it's suppose to start the day you are born. Doesn't work like that. I lived in neighborhoods where you might get shot for looking at someone the wrong way or saying the wrong thing. The person may have an issue or issues but does that make it right to bully them? The kid that goes to school and shoot the kids that were bullying him, is he wrong? My mom taught me to play nice not because she was worried about the other kids but more so because she was worried for me; you never know how the other kids will react or take it. So just like you say bullying has always been around, losing your marbles and beating the crap out of someone or killing someone that has been giving you shit has also always been around. You never know what will make that someone lose it. Yes two wrongs don't make it right, but I never shed a tear for a bully that get the taste of their own medicine or worse. So when those parents go on TV and say how their sweet kid did not deserve such an ending, everyone forget how they mistreated the victim that finally fought back. So yes they may have issue or issues but can I blame them when instead of suicide they decide to kill the last jerk that pushed them over the edge?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 9, 2013 22:51:28 GMT -5
You can blame anyone you want, the thing is, they are not the ones dead. The kid who was bullied is. So, yes, we can write letters and make movies and post on message boards about the horrors of bullying and come up with 100 and 1 ways on how to make it stop and what words we should be using and what IS bullying and what it's not, or..... we can start concentrating on something a little more realistic - know your child, teach your child and help your child to deal with things that can happen in life.
We come up with the most ridiculous anti-bullying initiatives in schools - have they accomplished anything yet? And as you said - you never know how other kids/people are, so why are we spending all our time and resources on 'them"??
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 9, 2013 23:04:06 GMT -5
BTW Cawiau, didn't we have a few mass shooting where the shooter went off the deep end and did it bc he was bullied? So, did you just say that you are OK with that? Or did I misunderstand?
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