Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 14:05:59 GMT -5
That book is on my list. Haven't gotten there yet...
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 14:18:20 GMT -5
And as far as your foot analogy - yes, it might be "their" responsibility to stop, but while they are taking their time doing "their responsibility", you should know how to get them off your foot or find someone who can help you to get them off.
So again, if you're not strong enough to get them off your foot on your own and you don't think you're supposed to ask for help, this can be a sticky situation for a kid.
That is not at all how I interpreted what she said. Not saying you are right or wrong FB. I just find it interesting how 2 different people can read the same thing and have a completely different interpretation.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 10, 2013 14:26:55 GMT -5
So, is there a way to teach children to attempt to solve their own problems, but call in reinforcements if they can't get it done? I don't know, Thyme. You probably would know much better than me since your kids are older and you must have dealt with this at some point. I think the way I'll play it with Babybird is to encourage her to share her problems with me and/or DH, and tell us how *she* plans to deal with them. That way, she knows that we encourage her to solve her own problems but she feels free to tell us about them anyway. We can be there for her to vent or talk through potential ways to deal with issues, plus we can intervene if a situation is serious enough to warrant it. Communication is key, I think... as it is with most things. I'm going to try not to teach her that solving her own problems means never talking to other people about them. Heck, even as adults we ask for advice all the time. We may not take it, but we rely on other people for feedback frequently. Just look at this board. @craftysarah, I really like that Ted Talk ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 10, 2013 14:27:42 GMT -5
That is not at all how I interpreted what she said. Not saying you are right or wrong FB. I just find it interesting how 2 different people can read the same thing and have a completely different interpretation.
I wasn't attempting to interpret or paraphrase what she said, movingforward. I was pointing out what I saw as a potential problem with what she said. Kind of a subtle difference sometimes...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 10, 2013 14:29:19 GMT -5
There are times to let your child figure things out for themselves and solve their problems and times to intervene. As i said when my son was being picked on during his bus rides, that is one i had to intervene. There have been other times though when my kids will say "So and so said this" and i tell them "why do you care what they think" and don't let them influence what you think, do or like. You will know as parent which situations are which. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Queen of Interesting Nuts
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Post by Queen of Interesting Nuts on Apr 10, 2013 14:32:59 GMT -5
I never did find out why this particular girl went after me and even managed to get others that had been my friends before to bully me (the gang mentality) I thought about sucicide, it was that bad. I never told my parents and it was only when my older sister called her out in a crowded cafeteria did she stop, so "I" didn't even stop it.
It stays with you, doesn't mean that I am meek now but I do recognise bullying. I am not unaware of the FB page either, talk about gang mentality.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 10, 2013 14:46:19 GMT -5
I haven't read all the responses, but I agree with the OP that the term "bullying" in recent years has been applied far to liberally.
Name calling and teasing is not bullying. Kids being immature asshats is not bullying.
To me, bullying means one kid specifically targets another kid on a long running and consistent basis. I also think there has to be a physical component to it. So I would think that it would have to either involve getting beat up or the threat of getting beat up.
I was made fun of in elementary school. But I would never say I was bullied. But some of that might have had to do with the fact I was always bigger than the vast majority of other kids.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:06:51 GMT -5
That is not at all how I interpreted what she said. Not saying you are right or wrong FB. I just find it interesting how 2 different people can read the same thing and have a completely different interpretation.
I wasn't attempting to interpret or paraphrase what she said, movingforward. I was pointing out what I saw as a potential problem with what she said. Kind of a subtle difference sometimes... I probably didn't say it right, but what I meant is my mind just didn't go there... I didn't mean that you were trying to paraphrase what she said, I just meant that my mind didn't go to a child interpreting that "as they can't ask for help." I am probably still saying it wrong ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:08:31 GMT -5
I never did find out why this particular girl went after me and even managed to get others that had been my friends before to bully me (the gang mentality) I thought about sucicide, it was that bad. I never told my parents and it was only when my older sister called her out in a crowded cafeteria did she stop, so "I" didn't even stop it. It stays with you, doesn't mean that I am meek now but I do recognise bullying. I am not unaware of the FB page either, talk about gang mentality. I have found that a lot of bullying, especially from females, seems to stem from jealousy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 15:12:49 GMT -5
I never did find out why this particular girl went after me and even managed to get others that had been my friends before to bully me (the gang mentality) I thought about sucicide, it was that bad. I never told my parents and it was only when my older sister called her out in a crowded cafeteria did she stop, so "I" didn't even stop it. It stays with you, doesn't mean that I am meek now but I do recognise bullying. I am not unaware of the FB page either, talk about gang mentality. I have found that a lot of bullying, especially from females, seems to stem from jealousy. I have never seen that. The kids that get bullied have good qualities, but not the kind that bullies are smart enough to value.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 10, 2013 15:14:11 GMT -5
I just meant that my mind didn't go to a child interpreting that "as they can't ask for help." I am probably still saying it wron
I get it because that's not where my brain went either. I knew my parents would intervene when needed and I could always come to them, but I was also expected to figure out how to solve problems on my own. I think it has to do with the kid's personality. My parents raised me the same way and I never once interalized it to mean I could never come to them for help. My BROTHER on the other hand, good lord. How we could grow up in the same household yet have totally different views/memories of the exact same events is beyond me. When he's bitching sometimes I have no idea how he comes to that conclusion because I was there. It's all in how he interpets it. That's not something you can predict. My mom's admitted she has no clue what she did wrong or what she should have done different with my brother. As far as I remember they were much more coddling/nuturing with my brother, he was a bigger handful than I was. He's not the only one that has a different interpretation of things. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 10, 2013 15:16:13 GMT -5
I haven't read all the responses, but I agree with the OP that the term "bullying" in recent years has been applied far to liberally. Name calling and teasing is not bullying. Kids being immature asshats is not bullying. To me, bullying means one kid specifically targets another kid on a long running and consistent basis. I also think there has to be a physical component to it. So I would think that it would have to either involve getting beat up or the threat of getting beat up. I was made fun of in elementary school. But I would never say I was bullied. But some of that might have had to do with the fact I was always bigger than the vast majority of other kids. So since kids making fun of you didn't bother you, that means making fun of other kids doesn't count as bullying? That's basically what I'm taking from your post, have I got it right?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:20:31 GMT -5
I have found that a lot of bullying, especially from females, seems to stem from jealousy. I have never seen that. The kids that get bullied have good qualities, but not the kind that bullies are smart enough to value. I guess it depends. Every time I witnessed a female bullied while I was growing up was because she dated some stupid boy that another girl wanted to date or something else as equally insignificant.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 10, 2013 15:24:43 GMT -5
I disagree. Bad behavior is bad behavior and needs to be dealt with. There is a huge difference between one instance of bad behavior and a pattern of systematic abuse, especially when the abuse is being dished out by a group. When the boys walked up to me giggling and asked me how my dad was a week after he had died, it wasn't an isolated incident. It was routine behavior, and I would have been truely shocked if they had missed the opportunity to tease me about my dead father. I was accustomed to being told several hundred times a day what a dork I was. It was just another day, not even a particularly bad day. When I went to my father's funeral, I sat there stonefaced. I wasn't in shock. I had known for 9 months that he was going to die. I had just gotten very good at holding back the tears. So, in your experience, when did these boys become bullies? After a day? After a week? After your father's death? And when, in your mom's experience, or your teacher's, or your friend's experience did the things happening to you become bullying? How much had you endured before they knew what was going on? I wouldn't presume to know what you went through, but in my experiences, it is bullying from the start. IMHO, it becomes bullying when it becomes an established pattern. How long that takes, I can't say. If a group of kids gangs up on you one day and are your best friends the next, I'm not that inclined to call it bullying. When it goes on for years, (8 in my case), then it's definitely crossed the line into bullying.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 10, 2013 15:25:19 GMT -5
I remember at a school dance this chick and her cronies cornered me and my BFF coming back from the bathroom. She accused my friend of dancing with her date. She demanded to know what grade my friend was and she responded she was a senior. Girl in all seriousness announces "Well I'm a 7th grader and you better not mess with my man!" I laughed so hard I nearly peed. I grabbed my friend by the arm and told her that this is so not worth our time, let's get out of here. The group didn't follow us. To this day I don't get t why a 7th grader was at a HS homecoming dance. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:26:23 GMT -5
8 years ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/shocked.gif)
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:27:37 GMT -5
I remember at a school dance this chick and her cronies cornered me and my BFF coming back from the bathroom. She accused my friend of dancing with her date. She demanded to know what grade my friend was and she responded she was a senior. Girl in all seriousness announces "Well I'm a 7th grader and you better not mess with my man!" I laughed so hard I nearly peed. I grabbed my friend by the arm and told her that this is so not worth our time, let's get out of here. The group didn't follow us. To this day I don't get t why a 7th grader was at a HS homecoming dance. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rofl.gif)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 15:33:02 GMT -5
My BROTHER on the other hand, good lord. How we could grow up in the same household yet have totally different views/memories of the exact same events is beyond me. When he's bitching sometimes I have no idea how he comes to that conclusion because I was there. It's all in how he interpets it.
. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) My sister too. It's scary how different we see/ remember things sometimes...
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 15:35:29 GMT -5
My BROTHER on the other hand, good lord. How we could grow up in the same household yet have totally different views/memories of the exact same events is beyond me. When he's bitching sometimes I have no idea how he comes to that conclusion because I was there. It's all in how he interpets it.
. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) My sister too. It's scary how different we see/ remember things sometimes... I am convinced my brother was switched at birth ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) He doesn't necessarily remember things differently but he is the polar opposite of everyone else in the family
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 10, 2013 15:41:28 GMT -5
Well, one way around this is to actually communicate with your kids, and when they bring home a tale of woe, say something along the lines of 'Wow that sucks. What are YOU going to do about it?' That way, you're validating their feelings and still communicating, while still encouraging them to deal with their problems.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 10, 2013 15:48:12 GMT -5
I think you are taking two things he said and adding a causal link.
Maybe I am, that's why I asked him if I had it right. I don't want to go on a ranty rant if I misunderstood ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 10, 2013 15:49:10 GMT -5
Well, one way around this is to actually communicate with your kids, and when they bring home a tale of woe, say something along the lines of 'Wow that sucks. What are YOU going to do about it?' That way, you're validating their feelings and still communicating, while still encouraging them to deal with their problems.
Agreed - like I said in post #122, that's pretty much how I intend to play it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 18:25:12 GMT -5
I actually find that yelling "Bully" is a way to BULLY other people. By calling someone a bully, you label them and discount anything they have to say. This is often used by people now simply when someone disagrees with their positions or arguments. And I can say starting a thread telling someone how they should feel about a giving situation and articulating for them that what they feel is bullying is indeed not; to me in itself it is a form of "bullying". You are telling others how they should feel about a given situation, somewhat lecturing them and trying to force them into submission; taking the stand that because "you" say so that is the way it is when you are not the one on the receiving end. Yep to me that in itself is "bullying"; The OP is being a bully. Where did I try to force anyone into submission in my OP? I was just venting and stating my opinion. I know I used the phase "I ask" but I never considered that to be forcing people into submission.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 18:37:22 GMT -5
My concern is that when we use the words bully and bullying to describe less serious situations such as rude comments or a one-off teasing incident we end up minimizing the seriousness of bullying.
I see your point - words DO matter, and if something that has a specific meaning is used to describe something entirely different, that can definitely have a minimizing effect. But I think arbitrarily declaring what is and what is not bullying can also have a minimizing effect on harmful behavior that is technically "not" bullying and therefore not taken as seriously.
Does that make sense?
Even though bullying has a specific definition, some behaviors fall into a gray area. For example, a "pattern" of mean comments directed at someone has to start somewhere, right? So is the first example of those mean comments not bullying and all the ones that come after it are, since they're then part of a pattern?
I really wasn't trying to arbitrarily declare what is and isn't bullying. I am more concerned that the term is used to describe behaviors that aren't actually bullying (and after reading everyone's responses I understand that there is no consensus on what bullying is). I have appreciated everyone's comments so far. I have a much better understanding on why we are so unsuccessful in stopping bullying. If we can't even agree on what it is, how can we agree on how to stop it?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 11, 2013 4:16:39 GMT -5
Well, we can't agree on what it is. In my opinion, bullying is attacking someone's person. Your too fat, too skinny, too ugly, have glasses, blah, blah. Some people think "bullying" is any type of disagreement or dissent. Disagreeing with and dissecting arguments is not bullying. And, it used to be that grown ups could engage in that. But, if you do not acquiesce to someone else's point of view, then you are "mean". And, like you said, when we label EVERYTHING as bullying, then nobody even knows what it is and it minimizes what it really is.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 11, 2013 10:39:06 GMT -5
If we can't even agree on what it is, how can we agree on how to stop it?Welcome to my world Any activist's world, actually. This is a HUGE issue for anyone trying to solve anything. It's what makes people who are good at clear and succinct communication so valuable. Disagreeing with and dissecting arguments is not bullying. And, it used to be that grown ups could engage in that. But, if you do not acquiesce to someone else's point of view, then you are "mean".
I agree with the first sentence and disagree with the second and third. I'm not sure if you're specifically referring to this board or not, but in my experience this is *usually* a place where peaceful dissent is engaged in with enthusiasm. Just take you and me - how often have we knocked heads over this or that? But I still like you, and I've never thought of you as mean. In fact, I like almost everyone on this board, even the ones with whom I've gotten into nasty, screaming arguments. They tend to be the posters who consistently challenge me, which I value highly. That being said, I do believe that YM (as a group) can be bullies from time to time, and engage in a pack mentality that ends up really hurting people. I include myself in that statement. I can think of three specific threads right off the top of my head that ended up really, really hurting someone. All of which happened within the last year. And I feel quite confident in saying that there were many more than three. Over the entire history of this YM community, we're probably talking about dozens. Lots of us share very personal stuff on here, and because of that, most of us have the ability to badly hurt other posters by poking at their particular vulnerabilities or sore subjects. That's how community works. You get to know one another and you become a kind of family, which also means you know how to push each other's buttons. Most of the time, I don't believe that most of us try to hurt each other, the same way your family doesn't generally intend to hurt you. But sometimes people go too far, cross the line, and use personal knowledge of a poster's life to discredit his/her opinion about something. It happens fairly frequently and to me that is bullying, especially when other people chime in and gang up against the one poster. That's not the normal way we engage with each other - if it was, I'd have been gone a long time ago. It happens too frequently and I hope we improve over time, but it's not the norm.
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