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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 23:37:54 GMT -5
BTW Cawiau, didn't we have a few mass shooting where the shooter went off the deep end and did it bc he was bullied? So, did you just say that you are OK with that? Or did I misunderstand? I am saying for every action there is a re-action and people need to understand that. You seem to be putting the blame on the person getting bullied : grow a tougher skin, learn how to deal with things, etc. I am saying the "bullies" should also understand that the person getting bullied will not always follow the script and will just deal with it; sometimes they reach a point where they lose it. We love our dog, he has been with us for 3 years now. The other day I was trying to pull something that got stuck in his paws and was hurting him. He felt threatened; the more I held him and the tighter my gripe got trying to have him stay put so I can pull it out the more he felt threatened. So he reacted like a dog; Started growling, showing his teeth and maybe I should have stopped but I didn't. I just told him to cut it out and kept on trying to remove the thing and guess what: he bite me. Should I tell my dog that he needs to behave/he should know better or was it his instincts, feeling defenseless and threatened so he attacked his own master? Why is it ok to tell parents to know their kids and tell them how to deal with it yet you are saying bullying is ok vs telling those parents they need to tell their kids that you need to behave and respect others. Great, let your kids bully others thinking it is ok. But don't be shocked when they get knocked out or worse. That is all I am saying. Just as you expect parents to tell their kids to learn how to deal with it; I would say to also tell your kids to be mindful: that kid they are smacking around might be the one doing the smacking tomorrow. We are on different side of the discussion and we will never see eye to eye so let's agree to disagree. You feel the victim should adjust and just deal with it, I feel the bullies should be warned because in those days where kids can get their hands on anything and feel justified rebelling/fighting back you might want to be more careful next time you slam that kid into a locker. For every action there is a re-action, that is all; And sometimes it is not pretty.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 9, 2013 23:42:55 GMT -5
I hope this is true. Once on this board someone told me I was a bully. I had never really considered myself a bully. I know I'm mean, rude, disrespectful and an asshole - but I don't recall ever following someone around and picking at them. I tried to become a kinder, gentler thyme after that. Meh - a leopard and spots and whatever. My son refused to wear his favorite t-shirt one day. He said the last time he wore it "Joe" made fun of it. I said "Tell Joe to..." and stopped myself 5 seconds before telling my 8 year old to tell a classmate to f**k himself. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/shucks2.png) I quickly came up with something more acceptable - pound sand or shut up or something. Best part was I heard my son retell the story to my husband and my DH said "If Joe says something, just tell him to ...uh, uh, tell him to mind his own business." LOL - my husband and I both need a grandmother to wash our mouths out with soap. Luckily, my son wore the shirt and Joe said nothing to him. My son wasn't bullied. Whatever was up Joe's butt that day seemed to have pass. [/span]
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 0:04:51 GMT -5
Anyway, the best lesson my mom ever taught me was the following: I always had a defensive lineman built (big and bulky) and can be quite intimidating.
One day in high school I thought I playing with my neighbor (boys will be boys) and would just throw him around, make fun of him, his size etc. I had a good 75 lbs on the kid and it was all good humor (at least to me).
My mom told me one day: you need to back off X, I don't think he likes it much. My smart ass answer: what is he gonna do about it.
My mom: you might think your the shits and got it going on. But put him behind a gun and he is the big man on campus, he is suddenly taller and bigger than you.
My mom while she liked X, was not telling me to play nice because she was afraid for him, she was afraid for what he might do to me if I was indeed bullying him and he wanted to take actions.
Everyone seems to forget how they were in high school or maybe all of you were secure and knew everything by then. But we are talking kids that barely know who they are and school being their whole universe. Being traumatized, picked on and bullied by everyone you know is hard to deal with.
But hey let's blame the victim, they should have learned how to cope better.
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Queen of Interesting Nuts
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Post by Queen of Interesting Nuts on Apr 10, 2013 5:11:27 GMT -5
I am sure it means other things to other people. When you have people or a few people take away your enjoyment of something and THEY know they are doing that AND get enjoyment out of it then that to me is bullying.
It is exactly the same as when I was bullied in school, so it is NOT being insulting or whatever you said but the enjoyment and delight of making another person feel like shit that is bullying to me, just how I felt in school.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 10, 2013 6:28:48 GMT -5
I actually find that yelling "Bully" is a way to BULLY other people. By calling someone a bully, you label them and discount anything they have to say. This is often used by people now simply when someone disagrees with their positions or arguments.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 6:34:12 GMT -5
I agree with Naggie, intent and enjoyment in the process seem like indicators to me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 7:13:25 GMT -5
I'm not comfortable with needing a pattern to emerge before we are willing to call something bullying - it implies that it is okay to do these things as long as you only do them once or once in a while. When someone behaves badly occasionally it isn't "bullying" it's something else. It isn't OK to do. I don't think anyone is saying that it's OK. I think when someone is being rude or obnoxious or just behaving badly - when they are called on it - they may actually stop (and not go plot revenge). It's been my experience that when a bully has been told to stop - especially by the person being bullied - the bully just laughs it off and continues the bad behavior. Then there's the escalation of bullying that can occur... that's way more than the occasional 'button pushing' or 'teasing' or whatever else a person does that makes another person feel uncomfortable. Generally, a non-bully who has behaved badly and who has been called out on it - will atleast attempt to refrain from antagonizing the other person (no matter how fun the non-bully feels it it or how much they dislike the other person). Maybe we need some different words - like harassment in addition to bullying. I think the key criteria for bullying is power, not frequency. A bully uses their power - be that their physical strength, their popularity, or whatever - to attack someone they perceive as weaker. With children, the problem with the "pattern of behavior" argument is that authorities will rarely see the whole pattern. If a parent or teacher witnesses or is notified of one event, it is a safe bet that there have been other incidents that they didn't know about. With grown-ups on the internet, we have enough threads and borderline comments and things going on that a pattern may be similarly hard to detect. And regardless of what is witnessed, I believe that the first incident in a pattern is as much bullying as the 45th. There is no reason to wait to intervene when we see/hear something.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 7:23:41 GMT -5
I actually find that yelling "Bully" is a way to BULLY other people. By calling someone a bully, you label them and discount anything they have to say. This is often used by people now simply when someone disagrees with their positions or arguments. And I can say starting a thread telling someone how they should feel about a giving situation and articulating for them that what they feel is bullying is indeed not; to me in itself it is a form of "bullying". You are telling others how they should feel about a given situation, somewhat lecturing them and trying to force them into submission; taking the stand that because "you" say so that is the way it is when you are not the one on the receiving end. Yep to me that in itself is "bullying"; The OP is being a bully.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 10, 2013 7:30:00 GMT -5
No, actually I am not. I am simply saying that there is a big hoopla going on about kids killing themselves bc of bullying, but may be we should be looking at underlying reasons of all those suicides and addressing those instead of declaring the "war on bullying".
And another thing I am saying that the word bullying is "in" right now and the second anyone says it - it gets a lot of attention, again, without actually figuring out what really is going on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 7:39:32 GMT -5
I was chronically bullied from 1st grade until I got to Middle School. I did not tell any adults what was going on and I didn't commit suicide over it either (though it did cross my mind by 5th grade but it was never really an option for me). I am with Lena that we should be looking at what we can do so that other kids don't consider it an option as well. Yes, bullies should be taught some compassion, but the kids getting bullied need tools to help them cope as well. I don't know what I have inside of me that helped me deal with it for 7 years. But if I could figure THAT out I'd "spread the word". ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 8:07:10 GMT -5
The letter to the newscaster was posted very publicly. The newscaster did not respond until it was getting a lot of public attention already. I think she did the right thing both for herself and as an example to younger women that have the same experience of someone trying to publicly humiliate them. Saying she would not be bullied was more of a warning that she would address any attempts on further intimidation.
LGW has an overbite and spaces with her front teeth. When everything is grown in she will be getting braces. She is also the new kid in class having just changed schools in January. There have been a couple of incidents at school when she has been reprimanded for telling kids she would "f them up" or yelled at them. When I asked her about it one group had been trying to take over a fort she and her friends had made in the school yard and another had called her "Buck Tooth Barney". The school ended up chatting with LGW and giving her excercises designed to teach her to tell a teacher instead and as far as I know the instigators were not treated as instigators. Personally I am glad she stood up to the kids right off the bat and cut off the possibility of it becoming a bullying situation. I think her reaction discouraged further mistreatment and I am not convinced the school would have acted on those first few incidents.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 10, 2013 8:12:29 GMT -5
That's another thing that pisses me off - we don't allow our kids how to stand up for themselves.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 10, 2013 8:42:35 GMT -5
I don't know. It would seem to be that "bullying" should be defined more on how the victim is feeling rather than what the "bully" is doing. It's hard to put into words what I'm thinking here, but the feelings of the victim are what should be taken into consideration rather than the number of instances, etc.
I guess what I mean is that I wouldn't be an easy target for a bully. More than likely, their attempts at intimidation or whatever aren't going to have much, if any, affect on me (unless it's a physical assault, of course). But the next person in line might be highly intimidated, hurt or offended. You can't bully someone who refuses to be bullied. And I'm not saying it's a choice always. Not at all. We are all wired differently. What bothers others may not bother me and what seems horrible to me may not cause another to even bat an eye.
I think "bullying" is defined by the affect it has on the victim. Not by the actions of the bully. And we all know you don't have to experience a broken bone to be highly affected. Mental anguish can be just as painful.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 8:43:09 GMT -5
I agree. Since the school only talked to her and encouraged her to tell an adult I did not contradict them. But I also did not impose any additional repurcussions like I do about not having homework done.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 8:47:35 GMT -5
how long do you have the girls for?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 10, 2013 8:49:17 GMT -5
At first, I was going to disagree with you bc if we go by victim's feelings - it will become a complete and total mess. ANYONE can say they felt bullied by ANYTHING else another person might do. We already have too much PC, this just would be crazy.
But then I remembered the conversation my DH and I have been having for years. If he does/says something that upsets me/makes me feel bad - should he apologize even if he didn't intend it the way it came out. My position has been "yes" - you hurt my feelings, it's not up to you to decide WHAT hurts my feelings. His position has been "no" - if there was no intent and I just took it badly - why should he apologize.
Needless to say, we figured out how to handle our disagreements/hurt feelings, etc. But on a larger scale - I think it's almost impossible bc you NEVER know how the other person will interpret your actions.
Of course I am not talking about very obvious harassment actions
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 8:50:32 GMT -5
how long do you have the girls for? LGW is 9. Unless she goes crazy and leaves care at 16 she will be with me until she finishes highschool. GW has 2 1/2 years left of HS. Both of them could stay with me in University if they choose.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 9:02:21 GMT -5
That's another thing that pisses me off - we don't allow our kids how to stand up for themselves. Why does it pisses you off? They are not your kids, raise yours as you see fit and they will raise theirs as they see fit. You version of standing up for yourself might be the kid answering back, and my version might be to tell my kid to go to school with a baseball bat and beat the crap out of the other kid. Wrong? Maybe but he is still standing up for himself. To each parent their own, no one hold the reign on what is right or wrong when it comes to parenting.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 10, 2013 9:17:18 GMT -5
That's another thing that pisses me off - we don't allow our kids how to stand up for themselves. Why does it pisses you off? They are not your kids, raise yours as you see fit and they will raise theirs as they see fit. You version of standing up for yourself might be the kid answering back, and my version might be to tell my kid to go to school with a baseball bat and beat the crap out of the other kid. Wrong? Maybe but he is still standing up for himself. To each parent their own, no one hold the reign on what is right or wrong when it comes to parenting. What are you talking about ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) ? I can't raise my kids the way I want to. My way is not an acceptable way anymore. I have 3 boys and I would love to teach them that if anyone puts their hands on you, you can beat them up. But!!! I am not allowed to anymore, bc if they do that - THEY are going to be the ones expelled or we are going to be sued or whatever else. I think the whole "zero tolerance policy" is ludicrous, bc as we are seeing, kids still find plenty of ways to abuse each other, but now it's just more creative, where before, you dish it out on a playground and move on with your life.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Apr 10, 2013 9:22:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree.
When DS was in pre-school he was quiet and polite and there was this bossy pants little boy who always shoved his way to the front of the line, etc. Once, on the playground, DS was trying to save a place on the wall for his best friend, and bossy pants came over and tried to sit there. DS said he was saving the spot, Bossy pants got rude and shoved DS, DS punched him - in the nose- drawing blood.
My little polite child was a thug.
I was upset and wanted to talk to our son about 'using his words.' DH wouldn't let me, he said boys have to learn how to stand up to the bossy pants kids, or they become victims. He told DS it was ok that he punched that kid, because the kid started it.
I talked to the teachers at the school, thinking they would agree with me, but they agreed with DH - they said there are always some bossy pants kids that push the other kids around, and they need to be put in their place by the other kids, so they learn they can't act like a terrorist all the time. DS did NOT get in trouble at the day care for punching bossy pants - in fact they were proud of him for standing up for himself.
DS never again punched a kid in school - but he also was never bullied, either. He knew how to back a bossy pants kid down. I did too - although I was a girl, I never had to punch anyone, but I learned how to verbally fend off nasty talk (having two older sisters helped with that) and I never got picked on. The kids that did get picked on were the ones that melted and cried when another girl made fun of them - that's like catnip to the mean kids.
Yes we should discipline the bossy pants kids and teach them it isn't proper to bully- but we need to do a better job teaching the meek kids how to be aggressive and back the bullies up to get them to shut up and leave.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 9:24:50 GMT -5
The key part of that sentance is "if anyone puts their hands on you". With the condition that the response is appropriate to the transgression I agree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 9:30:08 GMT -5
Why does it pisses you off? They are not your kids, raise yours as you see fit and they will raise theirs as they see fit. You version of standing up for yourself might be the kid answering back, and my version might be to tell my kid to go to school with a baseball bat and beat the crap out of the other kid. Wrong? Maybe but he is still standing up for himself. To each parent their own, no one hold the reign on what is right or wrong when it comes to parenting. What are you talking about ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/huh.gif) ? I can't raise my kids the way I want to. My way is not an acceptable way anymore. I have 3 boys and I would love to teach them that if anyone puts their hands on you, you can beat them up. But!!! I am not allowed to anymore, bc if they do that - THEY are going to be the ones expelled or we are going to be sued or whatever else. I think the whole "zero tolerance policy" is ludicrous, bc as we are seeing, kids still find plenty of ways to abuse each other, but now it's just more creative, where before, you dish it out on a playground and move on with your life. Who said so? I fully plan to raise my kids the same way my parents raised me: you do not start a fight but you better damn well finish it. And they made sure I knew how to protect myself from karate lessons to boxing. See Message above about my dad giving me an extra beating if I lost the fight. But that does not mean they or I condone bullying. It is actually the opposite: we believe in learning how to protect ourselves so we are not victim of bullying. My kid might be the next victim, my message is to the parents of those bullies: don't come crying to me when my kids knocks your kid out or worse.
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swamp
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Bullying
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Post by swamp on Apr 10, 2013 9:39:41 GMT -5
I've told my kids that if someone hits them on purpose, they can smack them back. But I know I'm a bad mom.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 9:52:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree. When DS was in pre-school he was quiet and polite and there was this bossy pants little boy who always shoved his way to the front of the line, etc. Once, on the playground, DS was trying to save a place on the wall for his best friend, and bossy pants came over and tried to sit there. DS said he was saving the spot, Bossy pants got rude and shoved DS, DS punched him - in the nose- drawing blood. My little polite child was a thug. I was upset and wanted to talk to our son about 'using his words.' DH wouldn't let me, he said boys have to learn how to stand up to the bossy pants kids, or they become victims. He told DS it was ok that he punched that kid, because the kid started it. I talked to the teachers at the school, thinking they would agree with me, but they agreed with DH - they said there are always some bossy pants kids that push the other kids around, and they need to be put in their place by the other kids, so they learn they can't act like a terrorist all the time. DS did NOT get in trouble at the day care for punching bossy pants - in fact they were proud of him for standing up for himself. DS never again punched a kid in school - but he also was never bullied, either. He knew how to back a bossy pants kid down. I did too - although I was a girl, I never had to punch anyone, but I learned how to verbally fend off nasty talk (having two older sisters helped with that) and I never got picked on. The kids that did get picked on were the ones that melted and cried when another girl made fun of them - that's like catnip to the mean kids. Yes we should discipline the bossy pants kids and teach them it isn't proper to bully- but we need to do a better job teaching the meek kids how to be aggressive and back the bullies up to get them to shut up and leave. I have never been a cryer, but I guess I was meek. At first I didn't understand why people picked on me, but it helped me to learn early on that not everyone is going to like you for whatever reason and I knew I was a good person so I just let it go. Maybe my not reacting to their taunts ticked them off and that is why they continued; they were trying to get a rise out of me. I have to say it did culminate in a fight. The "ring leader" and I were the two finalists for the Presidential Physical Fitness Challenge in 5th or 6th grade and had to spend the day competing against each other (talk about an after school special ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png) ). She didn't like that I scored higher than her on some of the things and so the next gym class her and her cronies tried to pull me out of the locker room while I was in my underwear. I fended them off, got dressed and her and I got into a fight when I came out of the locker room (I took out years of aggression on her, so even though my form wasn't great, I made up for it in enthusiasm! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png)   ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) . We were both sent to the Principal's office and she got suspended and I was sent back to class. They'd make comments to me in the hall but nothing like they did before the fight. It's kind of sad that it took a physical altercation to get them to stop. Well, that and the "ring leader" moved out of state the next year. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 10, 2013 10:08:14 GMT -5
I think a very important lesson to learn is that you can't control other people. By society changing the focus to "the bully" or even the more vague problem of "bullying" in general, we have told kids that their problems will go away if someone else changes their behavior. In reality, everyone has to learn to deal with their own crap, and things that are outside their control. This isn't to say that I think bullying should be allowed - but focusing on it being a defect with someone else is one link in our chain of lack of personal responsibility.[/span]
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 10, 2013 10:12:01 GMT -5
DS schools here in town really do take the whole concept of bullying seriously. When they say zero tolerance they mean it. When DS was in 7th grade a boy snapped a girl's bra strap and they suspended the kid for 3 days. Right before spring break a kid got hauled out of class by the cops because he had threatened to beat up another kid and that kid went to the principal and told on him.
They are on high alert now because we had a student commit suicide a few weeks ago. No reports that he was bullied but they are being cautious.
We always tell DS that if other kids are bullying someone that him standing there saying nothing makes him nearly as bad as the bully.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 10, 2013 10:16:57 GMT -5
DS schools here in town really do take the whole concept of bullying seriously. When they say zero tolerance they mean it. When DS was in 7th grade a boy snapped a girl's bra strap and they suspended the kid for 3 days. Right before spring break a kid got hauled out of class by the cops because he had threatened to beat up another kid and that kid went to the principal and told on him. They are on high alert now because we had a student commit suicide a few weeks ago. No reports that he was bullied but they are being cautious. We always tell DS that if other kids are bullying someone that him standing there saying nothing makes him nearly as bad as the bully. Sounds like you could use that system to really mess up someone's life - even if they have never spoken to or touched you.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 10:23:23 GMT -5
In the 7th grade I started "going with" (words we used back then) this boy and another girl became very jealous and upset because she liked him. She and 2 of her friends waited for me at my locker every single day and called me a bitch, slut, whore, every name in the book. They would tell me not to be caught in the bathroom alone because they were going to kick my ass. They called me at home to harass me. This went on for about 4 months. It was a bad time for me but it really made me grow some thick skin and learn to stick up for myself. It also allowed me to develop empathy for other people and by the time I got to high school I was the one standing up for other people who were being bullied. I was extremely popular in high school but I never teased or picked on anyone because I knew what that felt like (and my mother taught me better - ha). People say kids haven't changed but I'm not so sure. In today's world I am not so sure those girls wouldn't have beat me up and put it all over the internet or made some sort internet page devoted to hating me.
There have always been and always will be bullies but I think the way we handle them is actually the bigger issue and I do agree that sometimes the term gets overused but then again we have entered the "everyone gets a trophy" generation. I sometimes think kids are being hurt more by being sheltered and never learning the feeling of disappointment than they are by bullying.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 10, 2013 10:24:22 GMT -5
We always tell DS that if other kids are bullying someone that him standing there saying nothing makes him nearly as bad as the bully.
![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 10, 2013 10:32:38 GMT -5
People say kids haven't changed but I'm not so sure. In today's world I am not so sure those girls wouldn't have beat me up and put it all over the internet or made some sort internet page devoted to hating me.
Honestly I don't think kids have changed, technology/availability has changed. When I was a kid you used to write on the bathroom wall (prefeably the boys bathroom) "for a good time call X and then their phone number" If you could do it in a public bathroom even better.
Now instead of scribbling on a toilet stall they'll do the same thing on a facebook page/twitter account. Then whereas only people who used that stall could find the telephone number, people from all over can see the facebook crap.
Kids nowadays bully with the tools that are availble to them, just as kids did when I was younger. I don't think they've changed at all, I think we adults have been too slow to catch up with them and address the issue.
It's why when Gwen is on whatever passes for social media at the time, DH and I will have accounts and know how to use them. We'll also discuss the permenance of what you say on the internet and that what you say on screen is just as hurtful as in person and it's not okay just because you're hidden behind a screen.
Toilet stall was easy to handle. You complained and the janitor cleaned the wall off. Twitter and facebook are much more tricky.
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