milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2013 21:02:35 GMT -5
Jordan doesn't sound like an easy kid, but he also doesn't sound like he's got any issues that are not fixable. If this kid were just a casual acquaintence from school or another setting in which you could gently encourage your kids to find other friends, that would be a quick, easy fix. But that's not the case here. This kid lives nearby and your kids enjoy playing with him. From your description, my guess is that his parents are either crappy parents or maybe even downright neglectful. They're not spending time with him and they haven't taught him manners. He's little - that's their fault not his. If you can look at it like this, it might make it easier for you to be empathetic. He would probably respond to your firm guidance; he's not getting it at home. It's like adopting an older dog that has never been housebroken. He wants to please you but doesn't have the skills. If you can find it in your heart to be patient and teach him the skills, you might find he's a good kid. Might be worth trying since unless this family moves, you're going to be dealing with him for a while. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/undecided.png)
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Mar 28, 2013 22:58:47 GMT -5
Personally, I would go and meet Jordan's parents as soon as possible. I also think that it's possible that your son may start modeling Jordan's behaviors if you are very unlucky, and you don't make it clear to Jordan that any type of misbehavior or rudeness is not acceptable in your family circle.
Jordan is trouble and is going to get worse instead of better. I'd just forget about Mr. Jordan. Sorry, but I would rule out Jordan as a friend for my nice nine-year old son.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 29, 2013 0:22:09 GMT -5
Unless you're ready to ban the kid forever I would go with milee's approach. Coach the kid the same way you would your own, and take him home if/when he can't correct his behavior.
I think it would help your kids learn about setting healthy boundaries, and not that Jordan is your responsibility but it would help him in future social interactions as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 7:38:52 GMT -5
I understand the advice to coach and mentor the other kid, but me personally, I would have a hard time with another kid, rather thn mine, in my personal space all the time, esp. If he required more work from me. Maybe tht is selfish, but there it is....
it does sound like he has good qualities, I'd be concerned about the interactions with the mom... I can't understand someone ho would not want to know who their child was spending so much time with...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 7:45:51 GMT -5
I'd be calling CPS, frankly.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 29, 2013 8:04:01 GMT -5
The ones who tell their kid he can't come home until the car is in the driveway, how old is he? They want free babysitting it sounds like.
But like a famous person (can't remember who it is) once said 'no one can take advantage of you without your permission', don't let the kid in the door. Sounds cruel, but when he goes back home because he doesn't have anyone to play with, maybe the parents will get a clue.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 29, 2013 8:06:22 GMT -5
A couple of questions: What was your kids' reaction to the friend's behavior in the restaurant? Have you ever asked this little fellow why he doesn't seem to want to go home?
When my kids were that age, our house was Kid Central. My two were only two years apart, so they could get along with the same group pretty well. Some of the kids that came around had problems at home, for various reasons. We lived abroad at the time, so things weren't like they are here in North America. Nevertheless, the kids were still just kids. I found the troubled kids benefited by having an adult who would talk to them straight-up. For some, that's why they came and wanted to stay. They didn't have that at home. That may be what Jordan is trying to find ... adults who'll treat him like a person and teach him. Someone who'll talk to him like he's not a piece of furniture.
That said, boundaries have to be set. Visiting times need to be clearly stated, as do times when visitors aren't welcome. Your house rules need to be made clear and enforced when Jordan is visiting. A lot of things might be clarified by a nice, quiet talk with this boy about why he doesn't want to go home. If a child learns to trust you, it's surprising what they'll share. From what you've said, Jordan doesn't sound like a bad kid. He just sounds like a kid who has absolutely no guidance. He's a free-range kid, and they have a problem developing social skills. It's not their fault, sadly.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 8:30:30 GMT -5
I'm sorry for your dilemma. There's been a lot of good advice given here. I hope some of it works for you.
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bookkeeper
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Post by bookkeeper on Mar 29, 2013 8:36:18 GMT -5
You can train a neighbor's son the same way you trained your own, or a golden retreiver for that matter.
Good behavior earns him more time in your home. Bad behavior earns him less. Boundries must be set and rules enforced.
Guests do not get away with behavior you would not tolerate from your own children. I would have made him apologize to the waitress instead of being embarassed in that instance.
Seriously, I have had experience with many children that misbehaved in my home. Most of them were looking for some discipline and boundries because they didn't have any at home. The misbehavior is the way a child tests your boundries. He is searching for a direction, give him one. Some times the direction leads back to his own home, but that's ok. Start with limits to his time visiting your house and go from there.
It's not your job to parent someone else's child, but if you choose to, you may have a much happier home life.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 8:57:41 GMT -5
I'm in the same situation but not as much as you are. DFs step grandchildren are horribly behaved. I don't want to be around them, let alone in public with them. They aren't allowed to our house anymore. They haven't been allowed to bio grandmas house for some time. We are renting a place in FL for the winter and DF wants to invite them down. I have told him, our place, our rules, and to make sure the parents are aware of this as well as the kids. I won't have those terrors misbehaving under my roof and I will speak up if I have to. That won't go over well, I'm sure.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Mar 29, 2013 17:59:49 GMT -5
Wrongside - that was probably the single best thing that could have happened to the boy. He needs to learn respect and boundaries. If he doesn't learn it from home, the world will teach him and it doesn't do it nicely like a parent is supposed to do. When/if your DH (and you) ever calm down enough to allow the child back into your house, I would attempt to do the following: - Allow child to come in, but only to talk to BOTH your DH and you (send the kids to their room for this) - no sense embarrassing the child in front of his friends if possible (even if they are your boys, they'll have some idea of what's going on and it's serious).
- Both you and DH should talk to him in low, calm, serious voices. If either of you begin to raise your voice, the conversation needs to stop right then and there and the child leave. The child probably has never had a "serious" talking to and talking to him in this way will get through to him faster than raising your voice.
- Explain to the boy how his behavior is unacceptable and why. If you have to make a list, keep it at only 3 items - he'll get overwhelmed and shut down, possibly thinking "he can't do anything right so why try at all". The point of this is to help educate and "train" him on how polite society is expected to behave.
- Have a written list of your house rules and explain to him that these are rules your boys follow as well. At this point, I would also limit this list to maybe 10 things. The reason for this is he probably has never seen a list of rules before and anything longer will also probably overwhelm him. Make sure you explain the list to him, make sure he understands what each thing actually means (I'm serious here - he may not actually understand), have him give you examples of each behavior so you know he knows what they mean.
- The last thing on the list should be the consequences of not following the rules. Spell them out exactly (how long he will not be allowed to come over if he doesn't behave). First time, x happens, second time, xx happens, etc. Explain to him that if the behavior is severe enough, he might not get the first and second consequence - it may jump right to the last, so he needs to be on his best behavior.
ETA - forgot to mention the last, most important part - once the child understands everything, have him both verbally agree and sign his name on a list of rules that you keep (not posted - but posting the list somewhere in the house for the boy to reference might be helpful to him) that he will follow your rules while he is with you (no matter where you are). Also have him shake hands with both you and your DH, explaining to him what his word is supposed to mean (when you agree to something, you follow through). The signed list may help to really show him how serious this is and how you expect him to behave. This list of items should be something you and your DH work out together and are on the same page as to what will be enforced. I think at this point, DH will not allow something that you didn't (unless you two aren't communicating - which you should be!).
When new items pop up (which we all know they probably will - kids like this just seem to have more issues that don't present in one fell swoop - as you've discovered), rinse and repeat the above, explaining completely to the child each time. He sounds smart enough to "get it" - he just hasn't been given the opportunity to learn "what" he's supposed to get.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 18:34:28 GMT -5
I doubt I'd go through all that effort. I'd keep it simple. When/if he did something inappropriate I'd tell him "We don't do that here. If you want to visit, you can't do that/behave that way". If he's working my nerves, I'd tell him "It's time for you to go home. You can come back tomorrow". Or Saturday, or next Tuesday, or whatever. I wouldn't be rude to him because he's a child, but I'd be clear that if he's rude or behaves badly, he won't be allowed to visit. And you shouldn't feel bad about not letting him come over when you want some time just for your family either. "The boys can't have company right now" works for that.
The idea of your kids having a close friend that lives nearby is great, but it's not so great when the friend requires so much that it starts to feel like more work than you want to do.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Mar 30, 2013 12:48:10 GMT -5
I'm glad that Jordan faced some consequences for his behavior and that he got booted. I agree with Pink's programme for his "training" because you have two kids of your own, and really, you're not Jordan's parent. You would be assuming too much responsiblity for him in some ways, and his parents might him on you even more.
Your boys sound pretty cool and I think that they are strong enough not to be unduly influenced by Jordan's bad behavior and mouth.
They might start avoiding him if he keeps screwing up in their home or out in public.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Mar 30, 2013 14:35:24 GMT -5
While I agree with both Pink and Nasgul - to a point - here is further explanation of why I would do the above:
If the boy is just not being raised with social tact or rules, but is smart and capable in other ways, how much is telling him to leave because he's behaving inappropriately going to actually help him? If he doesn't know HOW to act appropriately, telling him he's doing it "wrong" isn't going to help him at all if it isn't coupled with how to do it "right". He's going to be left adrift to figure it out on his own - which may or may not correct his behavior.
Look, I'm not talking about raising the child - I'm talking about spending a whole 20 minutes explaining to the boy exactly what he did wrong and exactly how he's expected to behave while in Wrong's house. Maybe longer if he has questions - but I doubt it will be much more than that. Maybe the list is over-kill, but from my own experience, it's not.
The simple act of explaining to the child how to behave may make more of an impact on his life than you will ever know. If he choses not to behave the way you've requested him to act, then be done with him. But based on what I've read, this is a chance to possibly help a child with very little effort other than a talk and following through on consequences.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 30, 2013 15:08:01 GMT -5
the friend got his first boot out the door today. dh was playing xbox and the friend walked into the room and shut it off. he told dh -"that's connor"s xbox, we're gonna play." i don't know when dh is going to let him come back. he was pissed. O.M.G! Seriously, that kid would not be welcome back into my home
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 15:16:48 GMT -5
the friend got his first boot out the door today. dh was playing xbox and the friend walked into the room and shut it off. he told dh -"that's connor"s xbox, we're gonna play." i don't know when dh is going to let him come back. he was pissed. O.M.G! Seriously, that kid would not be welcome back into my home you're such a party pooper ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 18:57:50 GMT -5
karaboo, I'm not disagreeing with you, except that I think a 9yo probably doesn't have the attention span for a 20 minute conversation on appropriate behavior lol. I just don't think *I* would put that much effort into teaching my neighbor's kid how to act. I'm not that nice. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/sad.png) It's worth noting that Wrong's kids seem to be trying to correct him on some things. They told him not to yell in the restaurant, they told him not to say "pee pee" in public, the scold him about not flushing the toilet, if I remember all that correctly. Coaching him on proper behavior isn't Wrong's kids' job either, but them speaking up says good things about them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 20:14:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry Wrong but I can't help think it's funny that you couldn't convince your DH to take a stance, but the kid finally did. ;-)
Kudos to you for your boys telling him what's appropriate and what isn't!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 9, 2013 12:42:05 GMT -5
CPS should have been called a long time ago. This kid is seriously raising himself. Your mom needs to either not answer his knock or open the door and ask WTF to his face!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2013 12:43:09 GMT -5
If your kids had a pet rabbit, I would be worried that one day soon you would see it boiling in a pot on the stove.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 9, 2013 12:45:18 GMT -5
Homeschooling IS sending your kids to school...they just have a shorter commute. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) That'd be like saying someone who works from home isn't working because they don't go to an office. So you're not a hypocrite.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2013 12:46:42 GMT -5
Ok, more help needed...
We've been trying to set limits on the amount of time this kid is over our house. It's going just "ok". My kids haven't been giving me too hard of a time, but the friend is. Because I only allow the friend to stay until 7pm on week nights, he was upset because that only gives him less than 3 hours to play with the boys (because he doesn't get home from school until a little after 4). He told my kids yesterday that he's going to start missing school, so they can play during the day (my kids are homeschooled). I overheard him tell my kids that he can skip school whenever he wants to. I just assumed he was full of crap. Well, sure enough he didn't go to school today. My kids are at my parents house for a few hours while I'm at work and the friend knows where my parents live, so he just walked over there to play. My mom just called me. I'm speechless. I can't believe his mom didn't make him go to school. I know I sound like a hypocrite because I don't send my kids to school, but I feel like she's not sending her kid because she doesn't gives a shit. Am I wrong? Doesn't this sound messed up?
Add a start time to go with your ending time. He can't play with your kids till after 4PM and still has to go home at 7. I would also make your Mom's house off limits. He isn't going to like it but seriously you need to set limits and stick to them with this kid. Personall I would set a number of days a week too. Even if I loved the friend I wouldn't want them at my house every single day from 4-7 and then coming over on the weekends. It would start to feel less like having a friend over and more like unpaid babysitting. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/wte.png)
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 9, 2013 12:49:21 GMT -5
Ok, more help needed...
We've been trying to set limits on the amount of time this kid is over our house. It's going just "ok". My kids haven't been giving me too hard of a time, but the friend is. Because I only allow the friend to stay until 7pm on week nights, he was upset because that only gives him less than 3 hours to play with the boys (because he doesn't get home from school until a little after 4). He told my kids yesterday that he's going to start missing school, so they can play during the day (my kids are homeschooled). I overheard him tell my kids that he can skip school whenever he wants to. I just assumed he was full of crap. Well, sure enough he didn't go to school today. My kids are at my parents house for a few hours while I'm at work and the friend knows where my parents live, so he just walked over there to play. My mom just called me. I'm speechless. I can't believe his mom didn't make him go to school. I know I sound like a hypocrite because I don't send my kids to school, but I feel like she's not sending her kid because she doesn't gives a shit. Am I wrong? Doesn't this sound messed up?
If the kid is skipping and the parents are OK with that, this is a problem. But until you know that, probably not yet time to go to DEFCON 18. Here's how I'd approach it. Call the mom and in a friendly way try to gather some information. You're trying to help and solve a problem, not hunt witches. Something like this, "Hey mom, I noticed Jordan was over today. Since we homeschool, I wasn't sure if it's a school holiday or if he's sick, so I thought I'd check with you." Wait for response. School holiday = OK. Sick = "Oh, no. I hope he feels better soon. When he's sick, it's best he stay home and rest. For his sake and also so he doesn't spread anything around. Thanks." Skipping = See how mom is responding. If she thinks it's no big deal, time to increase efforts to distance yourself and your children without causing a war. If she thinks the skipping is a big deal and just doesn't know what to do, "That is so tough! I'll be glad to help by making sure that if it's a school day and it's before 4 PM, Jordan isn't allowed over to my or my parent's house. That way he won't be tempted."
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 9, 2013 12:49:22 GMT -5
4-7? Every day? No way.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 9, 2013 12:51:48 GMT -5
Ok, more help needed...
We've been trying to set limits on the amount of time this kid is over our house. It's going just "ok". My kids haven't been giving me too hard of a time, but the friend is. Because I only allow the friend to stay until 7pm on week nights, he was upset because that only gives him less than 3 hours to play with the boys (because he doesn't get home from school until a little after 4). He told my kids yesterday that he's going to start missing school, so they can play during the day (my kids are homeschooled). I overheard him tell my kids that he can skip school whenever he wants to. I just assumed he was full of crap. Well, sure enough he didn't go to school today. My kids are at my parents house for a few hours while I'm at work and the friend knows where my parents live, so he just walked over there to play. My mom just called me. I'm speechless. I can't believe his mom didn't make him go to school. I know I sound like a hypocrite because I don't send my kids to school, but I feel like she's not sending her kid because she doesn't gives a shit. Am I wrong? Doesn't this sound messed up?
I have had similar problems with some of my sons' friends. You just need to set boundaries and stick to them. That's all. If you want him to leave at 7 pm, then at 7 pm, you say "Johnny, it is time for your to go home now". If he comes over during the day, you answer the door and say "I am sorry, this is school time for my kids and they cannot have playmates". Just be blunt and to the point. That's it. I had a boy who was here ALL THE TIME. And it was annoying for my daughter to constantly come home to another boy in the house (besides her brothers) and we would stay late. Finally, i told him he could come over from X to Y and that's it. If he came early, i told him he could come back at X time. If he was her late, i said, it is time to leave now.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Apr 9, 2013 12:55:41 GMT -5
His parents don't seem to care where he is as long as he's not home. That poor kid. No wonder he likes being at your house. I know he is rude & has no manners or boundaries but I can't help feeling a little sorry for him. It sounds like he is getting no guidance at home. It sounds like he is desparate to spend time with your boys. Maybe it is the only time he feels accepted & part of something.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 9, 2013 13:00:59 GMT -5
If you want to include him more in your life because you believe he has a crappy home life, then you may. There is a boy who is always welcome at our house, who constantly comes here to eat and he is a great kid. I feed him and drive him around because i think he needs it and as i said, he is a great kid. But, i cannot take on the whole world. There are some other kids who probably need it too but i can't "adopt" them all. So, for the other boys, sorry, but they cannot be my problem. I don't mean that to be harsh, but that is just reality. If i thought there were being abused, i would call CPS, but they just have disinterested parents. That isn't a crime. But, i can only spread my home and self so thin. You cannot take on the problems of the world.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 9, 2013 13:05:34 GMT -5
Ever thought about catching him when your kids aren't around and saying "So, what's going on at your house?" See if he starts the emotional blurting of his problems. Maybe he needs a friendly ear. Or even when he comes over this afternoon, call him into the kitchen, put a plate of snacks in front of him and say "I want to talk about yesterday. You can't skip school to play with my kids. Actually, you shouldn't be skipping school at all. What is going on with you and school?" See if he talks.
I suspect one of two things will happen - either he will open up to you and tell you some nonsensical things about the troubles in his life, and you can start piecing it together and figure out if he needs help. Or, if you keep picking, he will back away from your house because you are being too nosy.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 9, 2013 13:06:39 GMT -5
But is there food in the house? I can't imagine my kids just hanging around gettin hungrier and hungrier and not going in the kitchen to get something themselves. It might just be crackers or a PB&J sandwich but they would get something.
If this child was told he wasn't allowed to eat though I would seriously think of calling CPS. I know she doesn't have to be mother of the year but not feeding your child, on purpose, to me is black letter abuse.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Apr 9, 2013 13:06:51 GMT -5
His parents don't seem to care where he is as long as he's not home. That poor kid. No wonder he likes being at your house. I know he is rude & has no manners or boundaries but I can't help feeling a little sorry for him. It sounds like he is getting no guidance at home. It sounds like he is desparate to spend time with your boys. Maybe it is the only time he feels accepted & part of something. I know! I feel so bad too. There was one day last week when he wanted to come over, but we were having dinner at my moms. My oldest son called over to Jordan's and talked to his mom. He said he was having dinner at his grandma's and we could pick Jordan up after dinner. We picked him up and brought him to my house and he was starving. He said he hadn't eaten since breakfast. His mom knew we were having dinner before picking him up, and yet she sent him unfed. I'm not sure where my post went. Anyway. His Mom is a crappy mother. Is the Dad in the picture?
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