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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 14:45:24 GMT -5
::But in the context of a twelve-year-old boy who has just been chased by the police, it's an atypical (and - given the rest of Milee's info - troubling) reaction.:: Any reaction he has is going to be troubling though. The way he acted is troubling. If he reacted as most children would (crying and shaken) then it would be troubling because milee has pointed out he "acts" that way sometimes if he thinks it will get him out of trouble. There doesn't seem to be much in terms of non-troubling actions. That's what happens with troubled kids though, any action they take is seen as disturbing or troubled because the context of their actions already assumed "trouble". If the kid had just said "Yes sir/ma'am" and/or apologized or even asked for his parents, I think most people would consider that normal for a 12yo and wouldn't find it disturbing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 14:53:24 GMT -5
::If the kid had just said "Yes sir/ma'am" and/or apologized or even asked for his parents::
He was (apparently) smart enough not to apologize. And he shouldn't be saying "yes sir/maam" if they're asking him questions, he should be asking for his parents/lawyer. I do agree that's normal for a 12 year old. What he did is much smarter than what most 12 year olds would do. Most 12 year olds would admit guilt or apologize because they were too scared to protect their rights.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 14:54:26 GMT -5
It seems like you're inferring that we think it was WRONG for him to react that way... He was "correct" to assert his rights. But in the context of a twelve-year-old boy who has just been chased by the police, it's an atypical (and - given the rest of Milee's info - troubling) reaction.That just doesn't register with me. I've often been surprise when my kids suddenly acted maturely on their own. Milee is preceding from a probable dx of sociopathy - and if true - that is troubling and potentially a lot of bad news down the road. But if the kid is just garden variety troubled, then it is meaningless - and individual and family therapy is called for. I find it dangerous to be labeling this kid this way, and treating him like a pariah (rather than someone in need of help/role models) based on a label that may or may not be a fit for him. You're right. I do not have the background necessary to make a diagnosis like that and have tried not to use that phrase or a label. To be fair, though, I can't speak for why other parents and children have made their decision, but I'm not making the decision not to let the boys interact because of any perceived diagnosis. I'm making the decision because I think the interaction would be harmful to my son - there is a difference.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 14:54:52 GMT -5
It's probably just because I'm a sociopath myself, but if I could get my future kids to do this if they ran into the police at 12 I'd be a very happy father. Obviously I would rather they didn't run into the cops, and if they did not for this reason.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 14:55:35 GMT -5
Forget the kid, forget the context of who he is on a daily basis. If my child were in this situation, I would not fault him for asking for a parent/lawyer. But I damned sure wouldn't be calling up my friends to brag about his behavior. She wasn't. We're best friends. We talk a couple of times a day about just about everything. I just don't post on YM about when we talk about the grocery store, or walking the dog, or what boat we're going to race next week, or how we need to go get new eyeglasses, etc.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 5, 2012 14:57:32 GMT -5
He's damn lucky he didn't get shot, either by the neighbor or by the police. Keep your. Hill far away from him. Obviously the mother doesn't want to acknowledge why her child is having issues but when he's dead, she will be the first to whine about the mean people out there who hurt her baby. Not that she isn't doing her job as a parent. My DS was 16 and was stopped for no good reason. After he called me, he turned on the overhead light in the car and put his hands on the wheel and the window down just like I told him to. He also told the cop I was on my way and my eta was about 2 minutes. The cop left quickly. What DS had done was leave the 7-11 without turning on his headlights because the lot was so bright. When he turned onto the dark road, he turned them on but that wasn't good enough for the cop. Fast forward and I'm driving down the street the same way after my car was in for service. My lights are on automatic so I never think about it. Cop stops me and asks me if I know why he stopped me. Told him I hadn't a clue and he laughed and said my lights weren't on. But I wasnt a teenage boy driving a Prelude, either. I was an old lady in a Toyota. 4 door Toyota. Zib, I don't think your son was stopped for no good reason. He was driving at night without the lights on. Yes, he might have turned the lights on before he got pulled over, but he was observed driving without lights after dark. From the police officer's perspective, your son could have been under the influence or something. As part of his obligation to protect the rest of us, the police officer needed to find out what was going on and maybe remove a dangerous driver from the road. So he pulled your son over to check things out. I think that action was completely appropriate under the circumstances. On another note, teaching your child how to respond to a traffic stop after dark was a great idea. I've got to think that one of the scariest things a police officer can do is to approach a darkened car at night. You wouldn't have any idea what the occupants are doing. You don't know if the occupants are hiding things they don't want you to see, or if they digging under the seat for a gun. Turning on interior lights so the officer can see what is happening and keeping hands where they can be seen would certainly go a long way toward keeping the stress level of the situation under control. Turning off the car and telling the police officer what you are going to do is probably helpful, too. "My driver's license is in my back pocket." "The insurance card is above the visor." Explains in advance what you are doing as you reach for items the officer has requested. I'm convinced that doing things to reduce a police officer's anxiety level during a traffic stop is a good thing. I believe that I've gotten warnings instead of traffic tickets a couple of times simply because I turned off the car, turned on interior lights, and made sure that everyone in the car put their hands on seat backs, the dash, or the steering wheel so the hands could be seen.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 15:04:13 GMT -5
I would have been okay with it but the cop was also in the 7-11 parking lot and followed DS out the parking lot onto the dark road. DS realized his lights weren't on and immediately turned them on. Not like he drove a few miles weaving in and out. To me it just smacked of someone with nothing better to do than hassle a kid. If he'd been doing anything wrong, why would cop leave as soon as he knew an adult was on their way? Because he knew there was no reason to stop him. By the time he flashed his lights, DS had his lights on. But because DS knew what to do in a situation like that, it ended up okay.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:07:00 GMT -5
::If he'd been doing anything wrong, why would cop leave as soon as he knew an adult was on their way? Because he knew there was no reason to stop him.::
Because after he spoke with the kid he realized it was an honest mistake and not that he was operating while intoxicated? That takes about 10 seconds to figure out.
Though I can't figure out why a 16 year old would call their mommy for a traffic violation and then tell the officer how long it would be until she arrived.
::Not like he drove a few miles weaving in and out. To me it just smacked of someone with nothing better to do than hassle a kid.::
Yep, nothing better to do than hassle a kid who they've just watched get into a car, start it, and drive away...all at night, and all without turning their headlights on as they are required to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 15:13:10 GMT -5
Though I can't figure out why a 16 year old would call their mommy for a traffic violation and then tell the officer how long it would be until she arrived.
LOL I was 30something and called Mommy when I got pulled over by a police officer late at night. I told her where I was and that I'd gotten pulled over, then laid the phone down so she could hear what was going on. If that makes me a scary baby I'm ok with that.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:17:56 GMT -5
Though I can't figure out why a 16 year old would call their mommy for a traffic violation and then tell the officer how long it would be until she arrived.LOL I was 30something and called Mommy when I got pulled over by a police officer late at night. I told her where I was and that I'd gotten pulled over, then laid the phone down so she could hear what was going on. If that makes me a scary baby I'm ok with that. I think that's an abnormal reaction and find it very troubling.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 15:19:25 GMT -5
Because DS is mommas boy. Does that make you feel any better? He was 16 years old and I would think a cop would know from watching the kids walk out the door of the 7-11 that they weren't drunk. He pulled out of the brightly lit lot onto the dark street and immediately realized his lights weren't on. Not a crime. I've done it myself.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 15:21:20 GMT -5
I don't think it's abnormal at all. Not just because I'm a woman but cops have cameras on their cars for their protection, why shouldn't I have someone on the phone for mine?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:22:31 GMT -5
I don't think it's abnormal at all. Not just because I'm a woman but cops have cameras on their cars for their protection, why shouldn't I have someone on the phone for mine? There's a difference between a good idea and abnormal.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:24:13 GMT -5
::He pulled out of the brightly lit lot onto the dark street and immediately realized his lights weren't on. Not a crime. I've done it myself::
Your state must have special rules, in most states your headlights are required to be on from sunset to sunrise. Not just "when you think you need them" or "only on dark roads".
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 15:26:02 GMT -5
I almost failed my driving test because of that damn question. I answered "30 minutes before sunset and 30 minutes after sunrise." Apparently being overly cautious earns you a big red X
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:29:57 GMT -5
I almost failed my driving test because of that damn question. I answered "30 minutes before sunset and 30 minutes after sunrise." Apparently being overly cautious earns you a big red X Well, it makes a little sense if you think about it, otherwise the answer to "how much space do you leave when following a car" or "how short of an intersection do you have to stop" means a good answer would always just be the highest number lol.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 15:31:34 GMT -5
Wow, never heard of that law. Must vary by state.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Oct 5, 2012 15:35:08 GMT -5
I almost failed my driving test because of that damn question. I answered "30 minutes before sunset and 30 minutes after sunrise." Apparently being overly cautious earns you a big red X Mid, you're close. The law in MN is 30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 15:36:53 GMT -5
Forget the kid, forget the context of who he is on a daily basis. If my child were in this situation, I would not fault him for asking for a parent/lawyer. But I damned sure wouldn't be calling up my friends to brag about his behavior. She wasn't. We're best friends. We talk a couple of times a day about just about everything. I just don't post on YM about when we talk about the grocery store, or walking the dog, or what boat we're going to race next week, or how we need to go get new eyeglasses, etc. Well good ... Hard position for you to be in though... don't envy it...
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:38:34 GMT -5
Wow, never heard of that law. Must vary by state. For some reason I had it in my head that you were in Florida, which has that law.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 15:41:24 GMT -5
I go back and forth and believe me, no one follows that law unless it's dark or raining. So I guess cops could be ticketing left and right.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:47:25 GMT -5
I go back and forth and believe me, no one follows that law unless it's dark or raining. So I guess cops could be ticketing left and right. Wouldn't sunset to sunrise cover "dark"? I find it hard to believe that "no one" follows the law of having your headlights on from dusk till dawn. That's not only a common law, but super common practice across the entire country.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 15:49:43 GMT -5
Hoops, you seem to be just picking fights for the heck of it. You OK? Bored? Restless? How's work?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 15:51:51 GMT -5
Hoops is a master debater. Possibly also a cunning linguist.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 15:52:50 GMT -5
Just for fun?
Huh.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:54:10 GMT -5
Hoops, you seem to be just picking fights for the heck of it. You OK? Bored? Restless? How's work? Who am I picking a fight with? I saw someone lying about what the law is in their state and called them on it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 15:55:32 GMT -5
Hoops, you seem to be just picking fights for the heck of it. You OK? Bored? Restless? How's work? Who am I picking a fight with? I saw someone lying about what the law is in their state and called them on it. Well, to quote you, you've had an issue with "everybody" and called them on it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 15:58:47 GMT -5
Who am I picking a fight with? I saw someone lying about what the law is in their state and called them on it. Well, to quote you, you've had an issue with "everybody" and called them on it. To be fair, the only time I've used "everybody" is when I've said "everybody who says X". So I'm not sure who I'm picking a fight with by disagreeing. It's not as if I made a post asking what kind of shitty friend takes their private conversations with their friend about their troubled child and posts them on the internet lol j/k THAT'S picking a fight.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 5, 2012 16:00:02 GMT -5
I go back and forth and believe me, no one follows that law unless it's dark or raining. So I guess cops could be ticketing left and right. Wouldn't sunset to sunrise cover "dark"? I find it hard to believe that "no one" follows the law of having your headlights on from dusk till dawn. That's not only a common law, but super common practice across the entire country. I don't think it's usually "dark" right at official sunset time. Otherwise the rule would never need to read any nonsense about minutes before or after sunset or sunrise....it would just say when it's "dark", right?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:02:38 GMT -5
Wouldn't sunset to sunrise cover "dark"? I find it hard to believe that "no one" follows the law of having your headlights on from dusk till dawn. That's not only a common law, but super common practice across the entire country. I don't think it's usually "dark" right at official sunset time. Otherwise the rule would never need to read any nonsense about minutes before or after sunset or sunrise....it would just say when it's "dark", right? It could, though I think "dark" might be a great way for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to fight a ticket based on their own definition of dark. What's "dark"? It can be dark when I walk into the office even with lights on sporadically. So rather than just say "dark", the lawmakers have further defined when they consider it to be dark, or at least a close approximation.
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