milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 9:23:54 GMT -5
Zander may or may not turn himself around, he may or may not turn out OK. He is certainly extremely troubled, to say the least. This is a good summary of how I feel. He is not a hopeless case. He shouldn't be thrown away like garbage or treated like nuclear waste. He is smart and could be a successful person in the future. I guess I'd say my concern is that he's extremely vulnerable right now. He was well on this path before his parents' divorce started and the divorce has added complications and risk. If both parents were together and both were on the same page that he needed some targeted help and guidance professionally and at home, there's a reasonable chance this would work out. His parents are actively at war with each other and the mom is both in denial and even if she weren't, wouldn't have the resources to get the help that IMHO he needs. So what does that leave? A 13 year old that is at high risk for getting into major trouble. Heck, these are vulnerable ages even for kids who don't have these issues.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 7, 2012 9:24:30 GMT -5
I have a funny feeling the folks have yet to see the worst of Zander. Wait until his teenage testosterone kicks in.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 9:29:45 GMT -5
Oh, and I should have added to that post about my son and school - last year, when my son took Zander into the group of nice kids that worked OK for a couple of weeks. Then the nice kids decided they didn't want to be around Zander and separated themselves, leaving my son to choose. He chose Zander. He still keeps in touch with the other group, but the other group doesn't want to hang around Zander.
This year, my son is trying to decide what to do. He feels guilt that he's all Zander has, but also doesn't want to be drawn into the fray. He's starting to move a little away from Zander and make other friends as well as reconnect with the original group. I'm hoping this will continue without my prodding.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 7, 2012 9:57:44 GMT -5
He sounds like my son. If there was one bad kid in the class, DS felt sorry for him and tried to be friends. When it would get DS in trouble, it finally stopped. Even his teachers would say he had a good heart, just aimed his friendship on the wrong person. That, thankfully, stopped.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 11:52:34 GMT -5
Rukh, I don't think it's necessarily true that no one cares to tell Zander's parents about their kid. He's been kicked out of several schools, a therapist has fired them because she didn't feel she could offer the level of help he needs, does that not say something to his parents? Even the kids are speaking up with their actions, by choosing not to be around Zander. The parents are refusing to see all this for what it is, that there's a problem with Zander. I think it's very clear.
If I were milee, I would not be willing to risk my own child's well-being trying to save another child that's on a bad path. Sorry, but I wouldn't.
I agree that if milee is good friends with Zander's Mom, she should at least try to talk to her about Zander, but I'm not sure what good it would do. If she's not getting the message from all the counselors and the schools, why would what milee says mean anything? And trying to talk to someone about their parenting or their kid is almost as bad as trying to tell them something bad about their spouse. YOU are likely to end up being the bad guy if they're deep in denial.
It definitely sounds like Zander needs help, more help than milee and her son can give him imo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 12:18:57 GMT -5
I don't know. I have a best friend I've had since high school. There is a chance I could be in denial about something and even my husband I might not listen to... but if she told me to sit down and listen up... I might not be happy about it, I might not even respond well right away... but I would not be able to ignore it. I know her too well and trust her too much. If they really have that type of relationship
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 12:43:49 GMT -5
I have a friend that values my opinion. I sat her down once to talk to her about what I'd noticed about how she interacted with her oldest child. She was often impatient and short with him, but not with her other two. I told her I didn't know what was going on, but I cautioned her that she didn't want him to think she treated him differently because of their family dynamics.
She listened, we talked about it, and she understood what I was saying. And that was that. I only said something because I knew she loved all her kids and wouldn't want to give her son the wrong message, and I figured she'd listen even if she thought I was way off base. I still gave it a lot of thought beforehand and tread carefully when I brought it up. I think honest-to-goodness friends try to help each other check themselves, even when it's difficult.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 17:48:36 GMT -5
Milee I really like the way you handle your kids. But I wouldn't want your DS to feel "pressured" to side with Zander.
The more you post about Zander, the more it looks like he's a walking time bomb.
I really hope your DS makes the right decisions before he gets caught up in any collateral damage. I get that you can't railroad your DS but maybe you need to (gently) push him a bit more?!
I truly appreciate your reply to me about what you like about your friend. I DO get that people have many facets, and that none of us are perfect. Frankly one of the reasons this thread intrigues me is that I had a similar (but not identical) issue with one of my very close friends. But, although our kids are the same age, even when they were younger, I was much more intent on keeping them apart than you seem to be. It helped that my two youngest couldn't stand her two, so that wasn't very difficult. Still, there was a certain degree of diplomacy involved. She'd say "come over and bring the kids!" Well, I didn't. I knew that if I didn't bring mine to her, she would be much more reticent about bringing hers to me. Which was FINE. She's very polite and correct, she definitely "got it". I know it hurt her. And for that I am sorry, because she is my dear friend. But I didn't make her kids, and I didn't raise them, and I didn't much want them around mine.
However, I have NEVER hesitated to tell my friend what I thought of her boys' behaviour (important: I never criticized her BOYS, only (sometimes) their BEHAVIOUR). I know she doesn't always hear it / sometimes tunes me out but from time to time I say it anyway.
The only time we ever fought about her sons is when they were all over for dinner one night (this was years ago, they were younger). I told her boys that NO children are allowed to sit in my antique rocking chair. Her older son did, rocked it so violently that it shattered.
I was fuming but I probably could have lived with that. But then he threatened MY DD to try to get her to say that SHE did it. My DD flat-out refused, came running to us adults to "squeal", and it caused a HUGE HUGE fight.
He has kept within the limits of the law, but only barely. He's a walking time bomb too. There was a period of two years when nobody could go to my friend's house because her son had punched too many holes in the doors and walls and she couldn't afford to repair them. Sometimes he seems like he's finally settling down, sometimes he still does things that are totally outrageous. Like with your friend, it's never his fault, it's always somebody else's.
I love my friend. She works very locally, so she pops in on her breaks, we talk on the phone, we have lunch. Sometimes she stops in for a drink on her way home. She's an eldercare nurse, if ever we have a medical issue she is there for us 24/7. I am there for her too, when her family implodes, as it does, often. But I avoid family get-togethers like the plague, and have done, for many years. We very rarely even dine as couples anymore because I don't much like her husband either anymore. Sometimes my friend wonders if there is a problem with her sons. Her husband thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and if she tries to bring something up with him about the boys, he calls his boys and they all gang up on her.
I guess a lot of it is just that I really feel really, really sorry for my friend. We have been friends for 15 years and it's very hard to write her off, despite the dysfunction. But, we always worked hard to keep our kids away from theirs.
By the way, our kids were all MUCH younger when the rocking chair incident happened. The kids were about 10, I can't remember exactly. Now her DS (the one that broke the chair) and DD are 20. Her younger DS is 18 and he has similar issues.
I sincerely hope that the worst damage that Zander causes when he grows up is breaking some lady's antique rocking chair. And that when he does whatever he may or may not do, your DS is nowhere on the horizon.
I was SO PROUD of my DD for refusing to be intimidated by his threats!!!
This said, Lord knows what is going to happen to this kid once his testosterone levels go up.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 19:20:32 GMT -5
Rukh, you have many good points and I know you care about the situation. Here's my best effort at clarification on some of the points.
...:::do they not have health insurance? Many places provide services on a sliding scale if no insurance. :::...
They do have insurance and that has been what has been paying for the counseling I mentioned in the earlier post.
...:::You say he shouldn't be thrown away like trash, but you won't be bothered to have an uncomfortable conversation with his mother? :::...
Ouch. Not sure if that hurts because it's close to the truth or because I'm hurt that you'd think I'm so uncaring. I have had some incredibly uncomfortable conversations about Zander with his mom in the past. None of them resulted in any change other than her not talking about that particular issue with me any more. Clearly she is not receptive or I am not doing a good job in my delivery. Don't know which. But I do know that if that's the result from conversations about individual issues, that's a fair indication to me about how a conversation about the overall issue would go - badly.
...::: You do all you can to keep your son away from zander. The more isolated zander is, the more he will have anger and act out. And the more isolated he will become because of that behavior. :::...
That may be true or it may not. I don't think it's fair to put that on me or on my son, though, even if it is. I'm sorry I can't be part of the solution, but that's an awful lot of risk you're asking me and my son to undertake in the hope that it might help another kid - who may or may not hurt or pull my son into bad situations.
...::: If he is bullying and hurting others, he was likely treated poorly at some point - and perhaps as his father is against counseling for him (and the mother so blind) - it's because he knows his behavior is up for inspection and maybe it ain't so nice. :::...
You may be right. I've never seen it, but am well aware nobody knows what goes on in a house unless they live there.
...::: Milee - if zanders behavior is such that you can not in good conscious have him around your own kid, you OWE your friend a frank accounting of that. And if they don't have insurance, offer up some sliding scale options, telling her you have researched this for her because you care about zander and his future. :::...
When Zander first started at the school my son attends and my friend asked about group outings, I did tell her that I didn't think it was a good idea because I felt they didn't make good choices when they were together. Although she thinks Zander is doing better and maybe that's why she's been asking again, I think the fact that I keep avoiding it or saying no is a pretty clear indication of my opinion. The idea of independently researching and offering recommendations on mental health services would be insulting and overreaching, IMHO.
...::: I would be beyond pissed if I had a friend who felt my kid was so off that they were going to the principal to have their kid distanced as far from mine as possible - and couldn't even be bothered to talk to me about it. I doubt I would consider that a friend. :::...
I will have to hope she is a little more understanding of my failings. To clarify, though, I did not have any discussions with the principal or make any statements about her child's behaviour. When filling out the parent survey and teacher team request form, I made a statement along the lines of, "Although [my son] is a Straight A student and following all the rules, he can still make bad choices in certain situations. His behaviour will be best if he is not in class with Zander."
...:::Because what I am seeing here is a troubled kid who needs help, the mother can't see it, the father won't see it, and no one cares to tell them about it. It is very sad, all the way around.:::...
I do care, I'm just not sure I have the skills to make the kind of difference you seem to think is my duty. It is sad and I'm sad, but I do care. His mom cares, too. She's just not able to objectively see what's going on and not receptive to outside opinion on the matter. Until she is, there's not much I can do but continue to be supportive and protect my own son as much as possible.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 19:39:22 GMT -5
Rukh,
Honestly, if I thought I had more than a 20% chance of reaching her on the idea that Zander needs serious help and that she needs to do WHATEVER it takes to get him that immediately, I would do it even if it cost the friendship.
But what I think would happen is that it will cost the friendship plus result in no change. Lose/lose. And selfishly I don't want to lose her, but I also think right now she needs the few good, supportive friends she has. She's feeling like a failure as a wife, she's feeling like a failure as a mother, she's worried she'll be soon living in the ghetto and cleaning toilets for a living, etc. She is lower than low. She is not ready to feel like and hear that one of her best friends thinks her son may have some serious mental health issues that she's not addressing.
I do discuss Zander's issues with her when she's receptive or when she asks, but the idea that I could call a meeting, lay out a recommendation for a specific type of mental health counseling that's different than what she's been doing, etc. is not a working solution. It might make me feel better but wouldn't achieve the goal.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 8, 2012 9:25:46 GMT -5
Happy Birthday, Rukh.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 8, 2012 11:25:17 GMT -5
It just says on the main page that it is your birthday. Hope you get all you wish for!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 8, 2012 11:31:14 GMT -5
I wonder why the therapist actually chose to stop treating the kid. I suspect it was because the parents wouldn't participate in any of the suggestions she made to help the kid. You can't "fix" a kid by going in to talk to some stranger for an hour a week. The therapist probably suggested changes to the daily life and the parents probably were unwilling to execute the changes.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Oct 8, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5
LOL. I think tinted windows in Fla. are necessary because of the sun and the heat. They are illegal here because it's an officer safety issue. It's dangerous to have an officer walk up to a car and not be able to see inside. Someone could roll down their window with a gun aimed and ready to fire and the officer would have no warning.
The minimal factory tint on windows is ok. The police actually have a little device that measures tint and says if it's an acceptable shade.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 8, 2012 16:05:49 GMT -5
You can be ticketed if the windows are too dark even in Florida. Most professional places know how to do it. Those that do it themselves may run the risk of being ticketed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 20:30:36 GMT -5
My stepfather said that as long as mine were factory done, then i'm fine.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 8, 2012 20:33:41 GMT -5
OK, it's official. You guys are killing me here.
I keep popping back in to see if Rukh's told me what an awful friend I am or anybody has added anything useful about the actual topic and you keep posting about the stupid window tint. Did you forget the whole wonderful revelation of FGI?
FGI, people, FGI.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 8, 2012 20:35:27 GMT -5
FGI?? Help me out here.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 20:37:23 GMT -5
F*cking Google It
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 8, 2012 20:38:59 GMT -5
F_cking Google It.
I mean, if you're gonna derail a topic, at least discuss something that's relatively interesting or something that can't be determined through a 10 second Google search. Otherwise, I'm going to start posting some ungodly boring stuff in all your future posts. Don't tempt me, people. I am a CPA, I know boring!!!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 8, 2012 20:39:21 GMT -5
Ah, thank you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 20:39:22 GMT -5
Only problem is, if you google tinted car windows in PA, the sources, legitimate ones, you will find right off the bat tell you that 1) the state has the worst written tint window law ever, 2) that even cops will disagree about what it means, and who they should ticket and 3) despite the fact that it seems like some tint is ok, some officers will write tickets and some courts have upheld them...
So, sometimes FGI... doesn't amount to anything useful...
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 8, 2012 20:41:32 GMT -5
AAAAAGHHHH! So take that boring stuff elsewhere. Seriously. Don't make me go all tax code on you. This is part of why I hate Off-Topic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 20:45:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much more there is to say on your OP, hon. Most of us have given the best advice we can already. Wish you luck.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 8, 2012 20:48:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. Being a parent stinks. Being a friend kinda stinks, too. You guys were all supposed to come up with some crazy creative solution that would give me an "ah ha" moment and enable me to actually change this situation for the better. Instead, it's become a discussion about esoteric motor vehicle regulations. Oh, well. Can't win them all.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Oct 8, 2012 21:07:55 GMT -5
I really didn't mean to derail your thread. I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 9, 2012 7:37:48 GMT -5
I wonder why the therapist actually chose to stop treating the kid. I suspect it was because the parents wouldn't participate in any of the suggestions she made to help the kid. You can't "fix" a kid by going in to talk to some stranger for an hour a week. The therapist probably suggested changes to the daily life and the parents probably were unwilling to execute the changes. DH was a counselor for a while, specializing in counseling 'troubled' kids, and he said a majority of the time it wasn't the kids that needed counseling, it was the parents. However, the parents would come in, tell the counselor 'fix this kid for me' and stand back and wait for DH to do it. Doesn't work that way. It does require both the parents and kids to co-operate. It requires effort and the desire to change from everyone involved. Unfortunately, many parents consider their kids problems just that - a problem with the kid, and only the kid.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 9, 2012 8:50:52 GMT -5
I really didn't mean to derail your thread. I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. I think you will just have to slowly navigate the situation as it evolves. There isn't a clear solution. At some point circumstances may change in some way where a solution does become clear, but until that time I think you just have to take it day by day.
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sunshinegal1981
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Post by sunshinegal1981 on Oct 9, 2012 10:08:39 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. Being a parent stinks. Being a friend kinda stinks, too. You guys were all supposed to come up with some crazy creative solution that would give me an "ah ha" moment and enable me to actually change this situation for the better. Instead, it's become a discussion about esoteric motor vehicle regulations. Oh, well. Can't win them all. I read all 12 (now 13) pages of this thread in bed yesterday over cocktails (don't judge), and I think the reason you're underwhelmed by the lack of apparent 'solutions' is that you are ALREADY doing the best thing you can possibly be doing, given the circumstances. I think the only thing we can contribute is to encourage you to continue: -keeping your own kidlet away from Zander's evil influence -supporting your friend -looking for opportunities to 'help' her see the light re: her own enabling of her son's sociopathy. You've tried to do this before with poor results, so no use pushing the issue, unless a clear opportunity presents itself. I think the chips will fall where they will fall, and there isn't much you can do about that from where you are standing. I do think, though, that with the divorce, and Zander's age (especially as he is approaching the age of experimentation with drugs/sex/etc) things will potentially get VERY hairy over the next few years. You will need to be extremely vigilant about protecting your own son from Z's influence. Your son's kind, inclusive, generous nature, coupled with the lack of judgement and common sense that 13-14-15 year olds from the BEST homes at the BEST of times tend to have, puts him at considerable risk, I'd say. So ... yeah. Not very satisfying, I know. But you are already doing all the right things. --- (Also... should Zander do anything particularly news-worthy over the coming months/years, we fully expect you to post with updates so that we may vicariously enjoy the drama.) (Oh my gosh, I am a terrible person for even thinking, let alone writing that.)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 9, 2012 10:23:57 GMT -5
I don't think it's that odd. If mom and dad fail to follow up on any suggestions, or even recognize there is a problem, the therapist should tell them they are wasting their time.
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