milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 7:57:17 GMT -5
One of my best friends is having a tough time with her son, who will be 13 in a few months. He's always been a tough kid to be around and his behaviour often causes him problems. Although he's at a new school now and behaving there, his behaviour outside school is growing worse.
Here's a paraphrase of a recent phone conversation I had with her:
- Zander just had his first run in with the police. - What happened? - He and 5 other neighborhood kids were roaming the neighborhood with their Air Soft rifles and I guess they happened to run through the yard of a neighbor who was holding an Open House. The neighbor was a jackass and instead of just calling me or one of the other parents, called the police and told the police there were kids with guns. The police responded as if it were a serious threat. I'm really proud of Zander, though. He handled it really well. He wasn't snippy, but he told the officers that he was a citizen, that he had rights and that he wanted to see his lawyer and then his mother immediately. - Is everyone OK? - Yeah, I just don't know why the neighbor was such a jerk. But I'm so proud Zander handled himself well.
I really didn't know what to say, because my take on the situation was so different. Plus, my feelings were mixed. Yes, you want to teach your children that it's a bad idea to talk to the police - especially if you're a suspect - without a lawyer; so it's good that Zander was smart and present enough to remember that. On the other hand, I also think it's important to teach your children to be respectful of police and that it is shameful when you've done something wrong, so I would expect that a 12 year old boy caught doing something wrong by the police would at least be apologetic and possibly even a little scared, not immediately puffing up and asserting his "rights". I surely wouldn't ever let my kid know I thought the neighbor was at fault for calling the police - calling the police when a bunch of kids run through your yard with what appear to be rifles is not unreasonable. IMHO, the kids (and their parents) were in the wrong here, not the neighbor.
For a long time, I think one of the biggest problems she's had with him is that he's very manipulative. Unfortunately for both of them, he's also very smart and aware of her predisposition to view him as an innocent. So he uses that to full advantage. Combine the manipulation with his reaction to the police at age 12 and I'd be very concerned, not proud.
But I can be pretty tough as a parent, so wondered what you thought.
If your 12 year old were questioned by police, what reaction would you find reasonable? What would you want him/her to do? How would you handle it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 7:59:44 GMT -5
I think your neighbors are aresholes. I wouldn't worry about Zander. Hopefully, the open house means these doofuses are moving.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:00:50 GMT -5
Does he have a lawyer at 12?
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:04:21 GMT -5
They're not my neighbors and I haven't met them, so don't know if they're aresholes or not, but yeah, I'd think the Open House is a good clue they're looking to move.
No idea if the kid has a lawyer. My guess is it's just a phrase he knows.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 8:12:28 GMT -5
I'm on your side - yes, it's good to know your rights, and if you're a suspect, keep your damn mouth shut til you see a lawyer (and if I have kids this will be drilled into their heads from day 1!) But I think the appropriate reaction from a 12yo detained by police for running around with an airsoft gun is tears + please let me go home. Hell, that's probably how I'd react today. And - as the parent - EVEN IF I thought the neighbors were in the wrong, I wouldn't let my kid know I thought that. And I don't see how calling the police when you have a bunch of teens running around your yard with guns is an inappropriate reaction. Most 12-13 year-olds are taller than me, I'm not cutting them a break just because they're kids! It sounds like your friend has a tough road ahead of her. I wish her strength.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:16:34 GMT -5
JUST fyi, my kids have "Airsoft Wars". And, we take them out to the woods to play because if people see teens dressed in camo walking around with heavy duty machine guns, it does kind of freak them out. And, these guns are metal and very realistic. Some of them actually cost more than a real gun which is stupid but that is what they are.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:18:42 GMT -5
Of course, running through people's yards, not a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:23:30 GMT -5
I have no problem with what the kid said, its what I would advise. There is no reason to be 'snippy' though.... just state your rights and your intention to exercise them. Why were 12 year olds running around the neighborhood with air soft rifles though ? .... The yard, the woods, ok... but the neighborhood? ... last time they were here at the house with them I lost several panes of glass in the shed window.... maybe you'll think me a 'helicoter' ... but this is one reason why i think kids need parents home after school more as growing people than as infants/toddlers... I think 12-13 year olds are a little impulsive and wouldn't feel all that great about a gang of them running through neighborhoods, cutting through yards playing rifle games... Just me maybe
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 8:24:05 GMT -5
Your friend might want to impress upon Zander the fact that many people could mistake an airsoft gun for a real gun - and in states with owner-friendly trespassing/retreat laws, it's not inconceivable he could be shot if he's trespassing on others' property.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 5, 2012 8:27:09 GMT -5
If a cop came up to question my son (14) and his friends they would be quaking in their boots. There would be a lot of "yes sir" "Sorry sir" etc. They are smart kids and know their rights but I honestly think in the thick of the situation they'd be too scared to do much more than apologize and try to get out of there as soon as possible.
I'm going out on a limb here but I kind of doubt that the kids running through his yard with air soft guns was their first offense regarding the neighbor. Plus if you are desperate to sell your house you really don't want prospective buyers to think there is a gang problem in your neighborhood.
We had a case in our town in which someone called the cops on a neighborhood kid that was shooting an Air Soft gun off in his backyard. Cops showed up and are considering charging him with discharge of a firearm within city limits. Most residents think that's overkill and I tend to agree.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Oct 5, 2012 8:31:23 GMT -5
I'm on your side - yes, it's good to know your rights, and if you're a suspect, keep your damn mouth shut til you see a lawyer (and if I have kids this will be drilled into their heads from day 1!) But I think the appropriate reaction from a 12yo detained by police for running around with an airsoft gun is tears + please let me go home. Hell, that's probably how I'd react today. And - as the parent - EVEN IF I thought the neighbors were in the wrong, I wouldn't let my kid know I thought that. And I don't see how calling the police when you have a bunch of teens running around your yard with guns is an inappropriate reaction. Most 12-13 year-olds are taller than me, I'm not cutting them a break just because they're kids! It sounds like your friend has a tough road ahead of her. I wish her strength.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:35:26 GMT -5
Good thoughts.
Mid - You're right. This kid is 5'4" (taller than me and taller than his mom). No idea how big the other kids are, but he at least is adult size.
Rukh - You're right. His prior behaviour does color my judgment. I'm worried about him, so probably very sensitive to what he does. And - SELFISH ALERT - he is similar age to my son and honestly, I'm not thrilled with them playing together. That's not all about Zander, some of it is that my son also has his own self-control issues that he's been working through. It just seems that whatever group or other kids Zander is with ends up getting into trouble and my kid has been doing so well with not getting into trouble that I'm hesitant to put him in a situation that is likely to end with a bad choice. Not that I'll always be there, but I think if he can have a solid track record of making good choices over a long period of time that it will become habit and influence his future decisions. My kid is well on the right path now and I worry that letting him play with Zander provides a strong detour from the path. But that makes me feel like a really awful friend to my friend and also a bit of a horrible human being to be so judgmental of another kid. I want good things for Zander, I just don't want to mess my kid up while Zander works his issues out. So I keep an eye on what Zander is up to and it does influence my decisions on how often to let my kid be around him.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 5, 2012 8:37:27 GMT -5
If a cop came up to question my son (14) and his friends they would be quaking in their boots. There would be a lot of "yes sir" "Sorry sir" etc. They are smart kids and know their rights but I honestly think in the thick of the situation they'd be too scared to do much more than apologize and try to get out of there as soon as possible. I'm going out on a limb here but I kind of doubt that the kids running through his yard with air soft guns was their first offense regarding the neighbor. Plus if you are desperate to sell your house you really don't want prospective buyers to think there is a gang problem in your neighborhood. Honestly, I don't know how I feel about a 12 year old who is too comfortable being stopped by the police. At this age, and if it's really the first time, shouldn't it reasonably cause alarm and nervousness? And I would be really pissed if I was having an open house and a bunch of neighborhood kids were running through my yard at all, much less with any type of weapon. It's not exactly the impression I would want to give prospective buyers. I'm not sure that I would call the police, but the fact that that's the course of action they chose to take does not make them jerks or assholes.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:38:28 GMT -5
oped - when my kids were little, I couldn't have pictured that they could possibly need me more when they were older, but I'm starting to agree with you on that. No more butt wiping, but much more high level guidance. And yes, it's a neighborhood. No big yards. Houses around 20' apart from each other. shooby and mid - yes, the "airsoft" guns are incredibly realistic. Very, very easy to mistake for a real gun and IMHO, dangerous in a neighborhood for exactly that reason.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:43:16 GMT -5
As a kid I used to "shoot" cars that went by with my fake guns. I would hide behind the garbage cans, pop up from behind the guard rails, etc.
One time I shot a car, which them stopped about 15 feet away and reversed backed to where we were. The driver said he was an off duty cop (no idea if that was true or not, at the time it didn't matter) and that we could be arrested for what we were doing. And how dangerous it was, etc.. As soon as he left we ran straight home, all worried (my sister, esp. she was a scaredy cat.)
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:43:25 GMT -5
sheila and imawino - exactly. I would expect a little fear and lots of "yes, sirs" out of a 12 year old. The reaction Zander had seems very off to me and that's what worried me. Also, heck yes it's reasonable that a person holding an Open House wants to avoid potential buyers getting the impression that the neighborhood is overrun with hoodlums. I don't think these kids are necessarily hoodlums, but it would be easy for a potential buyer to draw that impression. I remember one house we looked at years ago that DH and I still joke about; the house was gorgeous and right on nice, boatable water... but to get to it you drove through an awful neighborhood. On our drive to the house, we passed two separate little "gangs" of kids, both walking pit bulls. One of the pit bulls didn't have a collar and leash, they had simply looped a big chain around its neck. So we always refer to that gorgeous house as the "pit bull on a chain million dollar house." Yeah, we didn't buy that one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 8:43:37 GMT -5
I have a friend with a similar son... he's a few years older than mine. Its hard to look at her, when she is saying "why can't my kid find 'good' kids to hang out with" ... and not say, because maybe he's the 'bad' influence.... I felt the same way, I did not want our kids to hang out together. Luckily they did not have similar interests.
His issues have only escalated though. And he would be a kid who would stand off with the police I think... This summer he had a party at a neighbor's pool house when they were out of town... did a fair amount of damage.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 8:45:53 GMT -5
I don't think that's selfish. Or - if it is - it's OK. You are responsible for your kids' well-being and also responsible for molding them into productive members of society. That means you HAVE to be selfish sometimes, to ensure the best outcome for your own kids. I know my mom's biggest parenting struggle was trying to balance her desire to keep my brother away from certain bad influences and knowing that if she did forbid him from seeing them, it would just make them that much more attractive. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that eventually, a smart kid will see that their delinquent friends' paths are going nowhere good - but keeping them safe in the meantime can be hairy. My mom did always have very open lines of communication with my brother - even if she hated what she was hearing, at least she knew what was going on. Other than that, I've got nothing, except that this is probably one of the hardest problems parents face.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:46:25 GMT -5
Your friend might want to impress upon Zander the fact that many people could mistake an airsoft gun for a real gun - and in states with owner-friendly trespassing/retreat laws, it's not inconceivable he could be shot if he's trespassing on others' property. Yeah, we're in Florida so...
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 8:56:24 GMT -5
I have a friend with a similar son... he's a few years older than mine. Its hard to look at her, when she is saying "why can't my kid find 'good' kids to hang out with" ... and not say, because maybe he's the 'bad' influence.... I felt the same way, I did not want our kids to hang out together. Luckily they did not have similar interests. His issues have only escalated though. And he would be a kid who would stand off with the police I think... This summer he had a party at a neighbor's pool house when they were out of town... did a fair amount of damage. This exactly. She always wants to set up things for the boys to do together because she thinks my son would be a good influence and Zander also considers my son one of his best friends. Zander has very few friends mostly because the other parents don't let him play with their kids. He did have one close friend for years, but when they both transferred to this new school last year, the close friend was very upfront with Zander and explained that although he would always like Zander that he wasn't going to play with him at school any more because he wanted to make sure he didn't get caught up in Zander's trouble any more. I know both Zander and his mom were devastated by that, but I understood where the friend was coming from. It's tough because I am hurting for my friend and Zander, but not willing to put my own son in harm's way to make things better for them. For a long time, she kept suggesting outings and I just made sure my son was busy with something else during those times so as to gently avoid a confrontation. She's kind of gotten the message and asks less frequently but is also now more sneaky about how she sets things up so it's tougher to avoid. I understand, it's hard.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 9:03:12 GMT -5
He's damn lucky he didn't get shot, either by the neighbor or by the police. Keep your. Hill far away from him. Obviously the mother doesn't want to acknowledge why her child is having issues but when he's dead, she will be the first to whine about the mean people out there who hurt her baby. Not that she isn't doing her job as a parent. My DS was 16 and was stopped for no good reason. After he called me, he turned on the overhead light in the car and put his hands on the wheel and the window down just like I told him to. He also told the cop I was on my way and my eta was about 2 minutes. The cop left quickly. What DS had done was leave the 7-11 without turning on his headlights because the lot was so bright. When he turned onto the dark road, he turned them on but that wasn't good enough for the cop. Fast forward and I'm driving down the street the same way after my car was in for service. My lights are on automatic so I never think about it. Cop stops me and asks me if I know why he stopped me. Told him I hadn't a clue and he laughed and said my lights weren't on. But I wasnt a teenage boy driving a Prelude, either. I was an old lady in a Toyota. 4 door Toyota.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 9:04:03 GMT -5
Child. Keep your child away from him.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 9:05:01 GMT -5
She knows why but wants to be in denial. That's her choice. A bad one for her son but a good one for her it seems.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 5, 2012 9:07:59 GMT -5
Your friend might want to impress upon Zander the fact that many people could mistake an airsoft gun for a real gun - and in states with owner-friendly trespassing/retreat laws, it's not inconceivable he could be shot if he's trespassing on others' property. Yeah, we're in Florida so... I'm impressed and not in a good way. He handled himself better than most of the career criminals I deal with. Lets hope he uses his powers for good instead of evil.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 9:09:11 GMT -5
He's going to smart mouth off to the wrong person someday and not end up the winner.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 9:15:43 GMT -5
I'm impressed and not in a good way. He handled himself better than most of the career criminals I deal with. Lets hope he uses his powers for good instead of evil. Take it with a grain of salt, but that's exactly my concern. I think he's incredibly cold and calculating. I don't think he's having behaviour issues because of lack of self control - I think he knows exactly what he's doing and is doing it for a very good reason. Before you conclude he'll end up as the next Ted Bundy, I don't think that's a foregone conclusion... but it's a possibility. I think if she has a chance of really helping him to use his powers for good, she needs to first be realistic about what she's dealing with.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 9:24:39 GMT -5
I had mixed reactions but in general this kid seems a little too arrogant and over confident in dealing with authority figures. If he is this way at the age of 12 what is he going to be like in 4-5 yrs. I have a feeling he will be too much for her to handle. Also, considering that he did in fact trespass on someone's property the kids were in the wrong. Perhaps the neighbors overreacted or perhaps this kid has done other things before and they decided to teach him a lesson. The history here is something we don't really know.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 9:26:06 GMT -5
Milee, is this the same kid you mentioned in the "We Need to Talk About Kevin" thread?
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 9:33:04 GMT -5
When I was little i used to have bb gun fights. I used everyone's yard just the same as mine. I had a friend, Bucky Wooten, who once shot me in the neck with his double barrel bb gun. Bucky's mom was a big Porter Wagoner fan. Boys will get into some trouble. I think that is a good thing. You want a little boundary pushing. It seems lime you have an eye on the situation. I would just watch and decide as the situation changes. Is zanier and your son old enough that drugs and alcohol my be involved? That would change my thinking. I would separate more if that was an issue. Yes, boys will be boys and I'm OK with my son getting into some trouble. It's normal and expected. But there are degrees and types of trouble that are more serious than others. It's funny you bring up that concern of drugs and alcohol, because DH and I were talking about exactly that last night. We both think Zander is at huge risk for both those things. He has a fairly large amount of unsupervised time (which, by itself isn't necessarily a problem and many kids do fine with that), has shown he has difficulty making good choices, is having family issues right now (divorce, fighting), lives in a neighborhood with both drugs and alcohol are readily available, always has pocket money and has parents who think he is as innocent as a newborn babe. That, IMHO, is a recipe for trouble. Last Memorial Day, we were all at a family event and there was an issue where some of the 14 year olds snuck into a cooler and downed jello shots containing Vodka. Neither of our kids did this but if they had, I wouldn't be happy but would use it as a teaching moment and also know this is pretty normal behaviour for young boys. When we talked to our kids after the event, my friend initiates the talk with Zander in her usual manner with high-pitched tone and simple language like she's addressing a toddler: "Honey, you didn't drink any of the red jello, did you? No, of course not. You don't even know those had alcohol, did you?" And he immediately responded by morphing his face into a fair impression of the soulful, begging Puss in Boots in the Shrek movie, widening his big blue eyes and innocently stating with almost a lisp, "No, mommy! No." As she hugged him, I could see the mental eye roll he did behind her back. When I talked to my son later, he readily admitted that the kids knew exactly what was in the jello. I asked why he didn't drink any and he shrugged and said it was alcohol. So we talked a bit about experimenting and alcohol. I'm not naive enough to think he won't eventually experiment or that he doesn't know what alcohol is.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 9:33:24 GMT -5
Milee, is this the same kid you mentioned in the "We Need to Talk About Kevin" thread? Yes.
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