Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 5, 2012 16:03:20 GMT -5
I turn on my headlights every time I'm driving - I just think it's safer.
DH's Subaru's headlights turn on automatically when he starts the car.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:04:20 GMT -5
I turn on my headlights every time I'm driving - I just think it's safer. DH's Subaru's headlights turn on automatically when he starts the car. I turn my brights on anytime I drive. I think people appreciate it because they keep flashing their headlights at me in solidarity.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 16:04:59 GMT -5
at the current discussion - talk about digressing
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 16:05:32 GMT -5
Well, to quote you, you've had an issue with "everybody" and called them on it. To be fair, the only time I've used "everybody" is when I've said "everybody who says X". So I'm not sure who I'm picking a fight with by disagreeing. It's not as if I made a post asking what kind of shitty friend takes their private conversations with their friend about their troubled child and posts them on the internet lol j/k THAT'S picking a fight. Not only is that not fair, it's blatantly untrue. Re-read your post #119 and 193. In both of those you refer to "everyone" without any other qualifying language and in each case you misquote what many people were actually saying, including me so the term "everyone" wasn't fair or factual. Are you the type of person who, when called on it yells, "I AM NOT YELLING!!!" ?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 5, 2012 16:05:55 GMT -5
I don't think it's usually "dark" right at official sunset time. Otherwise the rule would never need to read any nonsense about minutes before or after sunset or sunrise....it would just say when it's "dark", right? It could, though I think "dark" might be a great way for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to fight a ticket based on their own definition of dark. What's "dark"? It can be dark when I walk into the office even with lights on sporadically. So rather than just say "dark", the lawmakers have further defined when they consider it to be dark, or at least a close approximation. No, they defined when to have your lights on, they didn't define dark. So, I think your argument that that's when it's "dark" so any idiot should have their lights on is incorrect.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:10:40 GMT -5
It could, though I think "dark" might be a great way for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to fight a ticket based on their own definition of dark. What's "dark"? It can be dark when I walk into the office even with lights on sporadically. So rather than just say "dark", the lawmakers have further defined when they consider it to be dark, or at least a close approximation. No, they defined when to have your lights on, they didn't define dark. So, I think your argument that that's when it's "dark" so any idiot should have their lights on is incorrect. Why do YOU think they say you have to have your lights on from sunset to sunrise, the time where the sun is not out? I agree they haven't defined dark, because defining "dark" opens up all kinds of issues of people debating that. So instead they define when you have to have your lights on, and the time they give around having your lights on is the time when it's dark out. It's not like they said you have to have your lights on from noon to 3pm.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 16:11:57 GMT -5
I go back and forth and believe me, no one follows that law unless it's dark or raining. So I guess cops could be ticketing left and right. But, did they ticket your son? Most of the time they don't ticket for this stuff. Just use it as a chance to give a reminder & check on things. I've been pulled over for the same thing. In fact I was even pulling out of a gas station parking lot. No big deal & no ticket. ETA - I just remember when my brother was around 16 he got pulled over for making a right turn too fast. LOL. No ticket there either & he was rather confused as to why he was even getting pulled over. You just answer the questions, play nice, & they let you go - unless you have a warrant or something.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:14:30 GMT -5
To be fair, the only time I've used "everybody" is when I've said "everybody who says X". So I'm not sure who I'm picking a fight with by disagreeing. It's not as if I made a post asking what kind of shitty friend takes their private conversations with their friend about their troubled child and posts them on the internet lol j/k THAT'S picking a fight. Not only is that not fair, it's blatantly untrue. Re-read your post #119 and 193. In both of those you refer to "everyone" without any other qualifying language and in each case you misquote what many people were actually saying, including me so the term "everyone" wasn't fair or factual. Are you the type of person who, when called on it yells, "I AM NOT YELLING!!!" ? Yeah, in #119 I actually wasn't trying to refer to "everyone" as everyone in this thread, but more "everyone" in general, as I think it's pretty common people think it's ok for cops to "scare kids straight". I guess I should have said "a large percentage of American society" or something. "Everyone" was a lazy way out. I agree on #193, I should have qualified.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 16:14:47 GMT -5
Dusk is a more dangerous time to drive than full dark.
I miss the automatic lights... i try to remember to turn them on all the time, but this one is manual lights, one of the two things I don't like about new car.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:15:42 GMT -5
I go back and forth and believe me, no one follows that law unless it's dark or raining. So I guess cops could be ticketing left and right. But, did they ticket your son? Most of the time they don't ticket for this stuff. Just use it as a chance to give a reminder & check on things. I've been pulled over for the same thing. In fact I was even pulling out of a gas station parking lot. No big deal & no ticket. That's why I don't find it to be some kind of conspiracy or ill-will that the cop left quickly...and not necessarily because the kid announced his mommy was coming to intervene.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:17:12 GMT -5
Dusk is a more dangerous time to drive than full dark. I miss the automatic lights... i try to remember to turn them on all the time, but this one is manual lights, one of the two things I don't like about new car. The only problem I've had with auto lights is that sometimes they don't kick in when you want them to (like storms when it's not quite dark enough for the sensor to kick them on, but it's dark enough everyone else has them on). In those situations it's sometimes SUPER hard to remember to turn the lights back off after you turn them on manually since you're not used to it. You'd think the dinging sound would do the trick...nope, just ignore that.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Oct 5, 2012 16:19:20 GMT -5
No, they defined when to have your lights on, they didn't define dark. So, I think your argument that that's when it's "dark" so any idiot should have their lights on is incorrect. Why do YOU think they say you have to have your lights on from sunset to sunrise, the time where the sun is not out? I agree they haven't defined dark, because defining "dark" opens up all kinds of issues of people debating that. So instead they define when you have to have your lights on, and the time they give around having your lights on is the time when it's dark out. It's not like they said you have to have your lights on from noon to 3pm. Oh, I think it's a reasonable enough rule. I'd like to say that most of us have the good sense to know when it's dark enough that you need your lights on, but based on a lot of cars I see on the road that's not true. I'm just saying that it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to not know that the rule of their state is sunset to sunrise, or x minutes before sunrise to x minutes before/after sunset. I just thought you picking a fight over it was silly. Quite frankly, I have no idea what time official sunset or sunrise is most days, but I know when I need to put my lights on to be safe: when it's dark and/or when I need to use my wipers.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 16:20:49 GMT -5
I wish Hoops wife posted here. I imagine she is either a really good sport, or even more obstinate.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:22:04 GMT -5
::I'm just saying that it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to not know that the rule of their state is sunset to sunrise, or x minutes before sunrise to x minutes before/after sunset. I just thought you picking a fight over it was silly. ::
The actual situation wasn't a distinction between that though, it was "it's dark out, but the parking lot seems well enough lit so I won't turn them on." It wasn't an issue of dark "outside", it was an issue of "it's dark here so I'll turn them on, it's not dark here so I don't need them on".
I guess I don't know how to pass up "I do this, it's not illegal" when I know it's absolutely illegal and someone's just making things up and I know they're jsut making it up.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 16:25:27 GMT -5
I wish Hoops wife posted here. I imagine she is either a really good sport, or even more obstinate. She's a really good sport. She's got the "uh huh" and the eye roll down pretty good.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 5, 2012 16:48:47 GMT -5
Milee-I have written to the Vatican nominating your for sainthood. No cannonized saint has ever had to rpeatedly explain themselves and their position as much as you have in this thread.
kudos.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 17:05:09 GMT -5
I turn on my headlights every time I'm driving - I just think it's safer. DH's Subaru's headlights turn on automatically when he starts the car. I turn my brights on anytime I drive. I think people appreciate it because they keep flashing their headlights at me in solidarity.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 17:05:10 GMT -5
I wish Hoops wife posted here. I imagine she is either a really good sport, or even more obstinate. She's a really good sport. She's got the "uh huh" and the eye roll down pretty good. I can see that.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 5, 2012 17:58:10 GMT -5
I like the automatic lights. It is weird though when they turn on in your garage as youre pulling in when it's broad daylight outside!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 20:04:25 GMT -5
Milee I've read most of this thread but admittedly not all of it. This said, I had this question last time you brought Zander up (and I'm hoping that you make up a fake name.)
I'm really not sure what you're getting from your friendship with this woman. I get that you care about Zander, but not enough to be willing to try to make YOUR kids change HIM, rather than the other way around.
I'm certainly NOT criticizing you for that! Zander may or may not turn himself around, he may or may not turn out OK. He is certainly extremely troubled, to say the least. I certainly wouldn't sacrifice my kids in the process of finding out. Frankly, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my kids on a regular basis, even a few times a year. He may or may not create too much collateral damage as the years go by. Yet you are still willing to keep your kids in his vicinity, because (for now) you can still control their movements. In a few years, you will certainly be much less able to control all their movements. Yes, you'll know them, and trust them, yada yada yada.
Has Zander ever shown himself to be a positive influence on anybody? Either you, his mom, your kids? If not, why are you still allowing your kids to be in his presence?
I have four kids and I WELL know that we cannot always control the people they associate with. But if there are people I disapprove of, well, I don't expect my young kids to learn to "compose" with them. That's something we may need to do later in life, but not at your kids' ages.
Above all, I'm really, really curious about why this woman's friendship is so precious to you. She doesn't seem to be very intelligent, nor accomplished. (I could be wrong of course). She's visibly in total denial about her son. Her marriage is falling apart, and she antagonizes neighbors.
So, I'm intrigued ... just what is it you see in her, and are so attached to, that this friendship is so important to you?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 20:19:58 GMT -5
Milee I'm sorry I am going to bed now. Of course you don't have to answer at all, but if you do choose to, please don't feel to need the rush. I have wondered this for a while, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. You are wealthy, intelligent, compassionate, sporty, successful, with two great and funky kids. I just don't see the affinity with the woman you describe as Zander's mom: ie negligent and deluded. I'm sure there must be a reason for this friendship, but I am very curious as to what it is.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Oct 6, 2012 21:14:11 GMT -5
I also haven't read the whole thread.
Two things:
Yeah. I'm married to a cop, and the last time I got pulled over for speeding I was so nervous. I had a knot in my stomach. It turned out it was a friend of ours who pulled me over. I was still embarrassed.
Driving without lights. I can only speak for PA, but there are classifications of offenses. There are things that are a primary violations and reason for a cop to pull you over just for that violation. Then there are secondary violations. You can be cited for those if you are pulled over for a primary violation, but you can't be stopped just for a secondary violation.
For example, it is illegal to have tinted car windows in PA. That is consider a primary violation. Drug dealers/runners are so stupid. Most of them have tinted windows, and it just gives the cops a reason to pull them over.
Not driving with your lights on when it's raining is a secondary violation. You can't be pulled over just for that. But if you're stopped for speeding, you could be cited for the headlights too.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 6, 2012 22:02:26 GMT -5
Wow, remind me not to drive in PA. In Florida most cars have their Windows tinted and mine most certainly are!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 22:22:01 GMT -5
What do you mean tinted windows are illegal? You mean on the front seats and windsheild? ... My back ones are tinted...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 7, 2012 7:09:55 GMT -5
Side and back windows are darker than front. Front has a tint but much lighter due to laws on tinting.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 8:04:23 GMT -5
Oh, yes, "Zander" is definitely a fake name, debthaven.
...:::I'm really not sure what you're getting from your friendship with this woman.:::... ...:::Above all, I'm really, really curious about why this woman's friendship is so precious to you. She doesn't seem to be very intelligent, nor accomplished. (I could be wrong of course). She's visibly in total denial about her son. Her marriage is falling apart, and she antagonizes neighbors.:::... ...:::just what is it you see in her, and are so attached to, that this friendship is so important to you?! :::...
A message board doesn't present a very complete view of a person. Glimpses are by necessity brief and directed at the issue at hand, not all the other qualities and actions of the person, which are irrelvant to the discussion topic, but still part of what makes them a person. While I would agree with the assessment that she's making some major mistakes as a parent, some of the other impressions I must have given are not accurate - she's a very sweet person and a good friend to others. She's incredibly generous and kind (which may be part of the problem here, as she's always looking to see the best in everybody including a son who sometimes needs discipline instead of kindness), she's fun, she's hard working and always looking to see how she can contribute to making things better. If someone was cold, she'd give them her jacket and shiver quietly. She's the kind of friend that would be there for you if you needed to call her at midnight with a problem. I suspect that some of the problem she's having with Zander is that Zander knows all this very well and takes full advantage of it in a manipulative way. While that's not really unusual - kids aren't known for being terribly appreciative of their parents at all times - it is very telling that he uses his charms to work her on one hand but then five minutes later talks about her in very dismissive, disrespectful ways as if she is a tool to be used, not a loved parent whose kindness he values.
She actually doesn't generally antagonize the neighbors. Other than being blind about her son and expecting others to be as well, she's a good neighbor. She volunteers in the neighborhood, knows and is friendly with neighbors and keeps her house nicely. She's the kind of neighbor that other neighbors could call to check on something or to bring something to the bake sale.
Back to why I value her friendship, though. I'm not all that and a bag of chips. I have some good things going on in my life and some things that I'm not doing well at all. I'm human. So is she. It's unfortunate that the area in which she's struggling - parenting a difficult child - is creating such obvious and disastrous results, but not being a good parent doesn't mean you're a horrible human being with which no others should ever associate. We're friends and have been for a long time. When we first met, we didn't do many things with the kids so I didn't really know much about her son. I'm not going to her as a friend because she's screwing this up. I'll protect my own family, but I'm sure as heck not dumping her at a time when she really needs friends. I will continue to provide emotional support and when she asks, honest advice.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 8:26:24 GMT -5
...::: Frankly, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my kids on a regular basis, even a few times a year. He may or may not create too much collateral damage as the years go by. Yet you are still willing to keep your kids in his vicinity, because (for now) you can still control their movements. In a few years, you will certainly be much less able to control all their movements. :::...
Yes, I'm worried about that. Although I've controlled things so far, that won't be possible when the boys are older. Unfortunately, last year my friend transferred Zander to the same school as my son and because they live around 4 miles away, they ride the same bus. Whether or not we're friends, these are things I do not have any control over, but I did specifically request with the school that my son not be in the same classes as Zander. They're in 2 - language and lunch. Again, that and the bus are things that I will not control unless I remove my son from the school, which I'm reluctant to do. That situation may work itself out, though, since if Zander doesn't start getting much better grades, the school will turf him next year. Honestly, though, observing what and how he's done at school is part of what has increased my anxiety level about this kid.
Up until last year at the new school, she had him at a series of charter or other alternative schools. A series because he'd either get kicked out of each or she'd withdraw him because she didn't think they were treating him fairly, providing the right environment, etc. I think he went to 3 different ones between K and 5th grade. At each of them, his behaviour was way outside the norm, but it was very consistent with how he was behaving at home, so I thought the primary issue might be just lack of self-control, self-regulation, etc. However, it's been a marked difference how he's behaved at the new school. The first two weeks he acted as he normally did. At the end of two weeks, the principal called Zander and his mom in and explained that they simply weren't going to deal with this behaviour and that if there were any more incidents, Zander would be expelled and go to his district school. The incidents stopped.
It's good that the incidents stopped, but two facts give me pause: 1) My son says that Zander's attitude is still exactly the same and he's often doing bad things (like bullying or hurting other kids), he's just gotten much better and smarter about concealing it. If a single harsh meeting was enough to invoke this type of behaviour change, this is not a self-control issue - he knows exactly what he's doing and is fully in control of his actions. He learned his actions weren't getting him the desired results, so he modified them. That's a different issue than self control. A kid with self-control issues may hit another kid because he is frustrated and doesn't have the ability to stop the flash of anger or doesn't have well developed enough language skills to use words to convey his emotions. The kid with self control issues usually feels guilt and remorse after losing control and hitting someone. A kid who is fully in control and still hits other kids is doing it to hurt the other kid. Big difference. Again, unless you understand and acknowledge what is causing the behaviour, you can't effectively deal with the child.
2) If Zander is willing to exert a degree of control over his actions at school, that means he has the ability to control himself when he wants to. The fact that he chooses not to exert that same control at home, at extracurriculars, on weekends, etc. is also telling. Again, it's obviously not an issue of self control - it's something else. She is approaching this as if dealing with a very young child that simply needs to learn self control; a patient talk about how he "needs to use his words" isn't helping here.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 7, 2012 8:34:49 GMT -5
Whether or not I'm still friends with the mom, I do not have control over the bus ride and two classes my son has with Zander. My son is - surprise! - very independent and my forbidding him to talk to Zander at school is likely to have the opposite effect. I've been monitoring the situation from a distance and being non-judgmental so my son is still willing to talk candidly about it.
Last night, I asked how Zander was doing. One of the reasons that my son initially was friendly with Zander was because he felt bad Zander didn't have friends and was doing poorly in school. When my son started at this new school, he struggled with those things and remembers how wonderful it was when a nice group of kids took him in. So he's trying to do the same for Zander. I'm glad my son is kind like that, so that's complicated things in that this is not a trait I want to discourage.
Anyway, DS said Zander isn't "doing very well." He's "not respectful and mean", so DS won't let his younger brother sit near Zander on the bus. DS said he's not sure if he wants to continue to be friends if things keep going on like this.
While inwardly glad he's coming to this conclusion and hoping like mad he'll decide on his own to walk away, I just listened and nodded. At the end, I told him that he's making good choices and I love him. Of course, inside, I'm screaming, "YES!!! Yes, for the Love of God, run away! Run Away!!!!" But I know if I went that far, it had a good chance of having the opposite effect so smile and nod it is...
Parenting stinks.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 8:40:28 GMT -5
You are describing a pathology which will only escalate as he gets older. It honestly may already be too late to stop it. But hard as it is, I do not think you are doing your friend any favors by just listening. I think a diffcult discussion is in order, while he still might get some help. Otherwise, I do worry that you will be on TV some day in an 'I knew him when' segment...
Its easy to give that advice though, but i'm not sure I could actually follow through? It would be unbelievably difficult. Is she someone who would read a bood or watch a movie you recommend? Could you at least open the conversation in a back hand way like that ? ...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 7, 2012 8:41:36 GMT -5
It isn't for the weak, that's for sure. Whenever I have been a weak parent, I did no favors for my kids. Being a single parent makes it doubly hard because sometimes, you're just TIRED. It's easier to say yes when you should say no just to get some peace. Fortunately, the damage I did by saying yes wasn't long lasting. Zanders will be. I would contact your principal and tell him or her exactly what Zander is up to so teachers and admins can keep a better eye on things. As far as your friend, I feel for you, but you may just have to be honest at some point and let her go. Or not be honest and still let her go.
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