thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 10:49:14 GMT -5
I can't not think about the warning signs for that 13 year old kid that killed his grandmother, and then took her wallet and went and got pizza.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 10:51:48 GMT -5
Can you suggest counseling for zander. Tell his mom that marriage is so hard on kids, especially teenage boys. Make up or find supporting facts. The parents have the money. The mother may be manipulated easily, but loves her son, so may go for this. Everyone could win. His first counselor "fired" them, stating there was nothing more she could do to help them. She recommended intensive, daily therapy. The second counselor was the one who suggested he might be bi-polar, but after he started toning down the issues in school, they stopped going to see him. He sporadically sees a third counselor, but the dad is completely against it and wants it to stop.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 10:55:32 GMT -5
Is it normal for kids to be taught that if the police stop them that they must assert their rights? This just seems kind of odd to me and not something I would have taught my kids. Not unusual. Here's a paraphrase of what I tell my kids: The police have a really tough job. They deal with criminals all day long and they don't always know who is a criminal and who is not. You need to be very respectful and polite to police officers. You also need to respectfully and politely ask for your mother and not discuss any details with them until I am there. Again, it is not acceptable to ever be rude to the police, but you need to protect yourself by being polite and quiet.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 10:56:33 GMT -5
LOL - I thought the same thing that said they would drill that into their kids "from day 1."
As the mother of two pleasant, well-behaved elementary school children, it has never once occured to me that I should teach them the best legal tactics to use when being picked up by the police. And certainly on "day 1" I had many more things to do (like figure out how to breast feed) than to start discussing the full implications of miranda rights.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 5, 2012 10:56:43 GMT -5
Can you suggest counseling for zander. Tell his mom that marriage is so hard on kids, especially teenage boys. Make up or find supporting facts. The parents have the money. The mother may be manipulated easily, but loves her son, so may go for this. Everyone could win. The problem is going to be that the mom doesn't think her kid did anything wrong. She thinks he's her sweet little boy who would never steal a jello shot and was so brave and smart when confronted by the police that the evil asshole neighbors sent after her angel. Mom would have to recognize that her son is beginning to start down a very bad path, and she would have to be honest with the counselor about what her kid has done. She would have to work with the counselor to come up with some strategies to start steering Zander back. But she wouldn't do that - she would sit there and complain about how people think her Zander is a bad kid when really he's just misunderstood because he's so much smarter than all the other kids. I hope this kid's dad recognizes what's happening to his kid, I think he may be the last hope Zander has.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 11:00:03 GMT -5
I pretty much agree with the OP's assessment. I think it's good for kids to learn from an early age not to talk to the police, at all, if they're a suspect, being arrested, and/or being charged with anything. There have been well documented cases where police will try to intimidate people into confessing crimes they didn't commit, just because it's easy on th em. They especially like to do this with young people. Just clam up and don't say a word until you get legal counsel.
On the other, I don't like the idea of Zander's mother saying the neighbor was wrong for calling the cops. I think the neighbor had every right to call the cops. Airsoft guns are incredibly real, and the kid should show more respect for other people's property. Personally I'd punish the my kid myself and take the air soft guns away.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 11:00:53 GMT -5
Is it normal for kids to be taught that if the police stop them that they must assert their rights?
I guess it depends on what we're talking about. At 12 I probably would have peed my pants and started to cry when the cops showed up. Plus our neighbors would have called my parents right after calling the police.
As I got older if it was serious I knew enough to insist that my parents be contacted. I wouldn't be snippy and I'd still probably pee my pants, but I knew that it wasn't my job to handle the police beyond saying contact my parents.
Fortunately I never had any kind of run in with the cops, but my parents always stressed that we needed to make sure somebody called them if we were in trouble.
That's not what bothers me about it, it's the mom saying she is so proud of how her son handled his "first interaction" with the police?
Is she expecting more of them in the near future?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 11:02:46 GMT -5
Damn... just lost another post. ... sigh... i'm not going to recontstruct everything... basically we teach close to milee... police have a difficult and necessary job, be respectful, but SAFE is always #1...
This isn't just about wrongful accusations, or minimizing if you do something wrong. Predators will use a uniform to trick kids... I don't believe in blind autority of any kind. Respectful, but cautious...
I know enough about the system to know that even in a legitimate situation, a child being questioned alone is not a good idea...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 11:04:34 GMT -5
His first counselor "fired" them, stating there was nothing more she could do to help them. She recommended intensive, daily therapy. The second counselor was the one who suggested he might be bi-polar, but after he started toning down the issues in school, they stopped going to see him. He sporadically sees a third counselor, but the dad is completely against it and wants it to stop.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 11:05:17 GMT -5
Wow, remind me not to use hyperbole again. That's what I meant. If that makes me a shitty parent/person, so be it. But Thyme, your husband is an attorney, and I'll bet he'd agree.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 11:06:11 GMT -5
At 18 yrs old I was at the beach drunk with my friends after graduation and the cops showed up and threatened to arrest us. I was scared to death. A 12 yr old having no respect for authority or being even remotely scared of the police just doesn't seem normal to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 11:11:33 GMT -5
I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing This is true. There was a recent study which concluded that many Wall Street bankers and CEOs have sociopathic type personalities; self-aggrandizing, ruthless, manipulative, deceitful and insensitive to the pain and harm their actions may cause others. Maybe in 40 years Zander will be running a Fortune 500 company. There is always an upside. ;D
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Oct 5, 2012 11:13:01 GMT -5
I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing This is true. There was a recent study which concluded that many Wall Street bankers and CEOs have sociopathic type personalities; self-aggrandizing, ruthless, manipulative, deceitful and insensitive to the pain and harm their actions may cause others. Maybe in 40 years Zander will be running a Fortune 500 company. There is always an upside. ;D Did they also have "it's not your fault" mommies?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 11:13:33 GMT -5
I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing This is true. There was a recent study which concluded that many Wall Street bankers and CEOs have sociopathic type personalities; self-aggrandizing, ruthless, manipulative, deceitful and insensitive to the pain and harm their actions may cause others. Maybe in 40 years Zander will be running a Fortune 500 company. There is always an upside. ;D Or be in politics
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 11:23:59 GMT -5
I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing This is true. There was a recent study which concluded that many Wall Street bankers and CEOs have sociopathic type personalities; self-aggrandizing, ruthless, manipulative, deceitful and insensitive to the pain and harm their actions may cause others. Maybe in 40 years Zander will be running a Fortune 500 company. There is always an upside. ;D Could be. He's smart enough. Hope that's the case. I really wish this kid well.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 11:24:40 GMT -5
That's what I meant. If that makes me a shitty parent/person, so be it. But Thyme, your husband is an attorney, and I'll bet he'd agree. I understand where you are coming from, but I think there is a point where that is overkill. I got approached by police occassionally when I was young because our town had a curfew. It never occurred to me to start insisting on a lawyer & to call my mom on the initial encounter. Just be polite & answer the questions. If there comes a point where you learned you are being detained or questioned for something far worse than what you were doing, then I sure would shut up and ask for a lawyer. But if approached by a cop for running through a neighbors yard, I think you say sorry & wait to see their reaction. Maybe I just grew up around nice cops. Even when catching us underage out after curfew they generally would say either "go home" or "make sure you stay out of trouble". I was with a friend walking down the street & she had an alcoholic drink in a cup. A cop pulled over & asked what was in the drink. I don't recall what she said, but he asked to smell it. Then upon smelling it he laughed, handed it back, said " it out", and let us go on our way.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:25:30 GMT -5
Well, he hasn't sat our kids down and given them a talk about how to deal with police - so I suspect he is on the same page as I am. Generally, kids all have a scare with police - and it is usually for something like almost40. Police don't drag them downtown and lock them in a room and keep them there for 65 straight hours until they confess to being DB Cooper or something. They fuss at them for a while, scare them, and then call their parents. Plus, they aren't allowed to question them without parents there (if they are under 18) - so, maybe when they grow up we will tell them that if they ever get "taken downtown" to demand a lawyer. And maybe if they start going bad as teenagers we might have a different message for them, but at this point, I'm going to take my chances that there isn't some grand conspiracy to get my normal kids arrested for skateboarding under a "No skateboarding" sign, in order to rope them into confessing to a larger crime.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 11:28:05 GMT -5
I haven't read through the whole thing... my personal take on if it were my kids - my husband is in law enforcement so my kids are very comfortable around police officers so they would acknowledge they did something wrong (even though kids running around hte neighborhood with air soft guns isn't the end of the world or illegal as far as I know?) but they would probably be comfortable enough talking to an officer even if they were the ones being scrutinized and would be forth coming with them. ETA: Actually the likelihood that the officer in question actually knows my husband (or his brother who is also in law enforcement) would be pretty high. Our last name is NOT common at all. But I agree on the comment about the mom being proud of how he handled his "first" time with the cops is a bit disturbing. Yes, I hear what you're saying about your kids' reaction since they're constantly around police there is no special mystique. Kind of like the people who grew up in a family that ran a funeral home so they're completely comfy around dead people and don't understand why people find viewings a little creepy... But most people didn't grow up around police or dead people, so we can understandably be a little apprehensive when confronted by either.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:30:08 GMT -5
The more I read about sociopaths, the more I'm sure I used to work with one. She was brutal and would systematically pick a person to destroy either emotionally or professionally, but usually both at once. She was methodically work to back them into a corner and torture them until they quit, or (as in the case with one gal) ended up in some emotional rehab facility.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 11:30:41 GMT -5
I think with this particular kid and his mom's response to the situation is a giant red flag. At around 12 I probably could have parroted "contact my lawyer!". I joke with DH all the time that I know what to do because I watch Judge Judy. However my parents would not have been "proud" of me for saying something like to the cops. After the cops were gone there would be hell to pay once my parents got ahold of me. The fact that the mother was "proud" of her son and how well he handled his "first encounter" is the disturbing part of all this. He knew what to say and what it meant and his mom is beaming with pride over it. To me this suggests encountering the cops is something the family has quite a bit of experience in.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 5, 2012 11:31:59 GMT -5
I used to be a prosecutor and still get the butterflies when I get pulled over by the cops. At 12, I probably would have wet myself and cried.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 11:32:20 GMT -5
And a little clarification...
Because the neighbor reported it as "kids with guns", the beach patrol (they live 2 blocks from the beach) responded on ATVs. They chased the kids through the neighborhood and at some point, someone reported that the police arrived with guns drawn. Don't know what was actual and what was exaggerated, but it was not like a nice officer pulled up in a patrol car, calmly stepped out and said, "son, I'd like to have a word." There was chasing and adrenaline.
I think most kids would be afraid and apologetic, but then again, maybe by the time the police caught them, the kids were amped up and reacting differently than they would had it been a calmer discussion.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 11:32:30 GMT -5
That's why I said "if you're a suspect." I never meant to imply that I'm going to teach my kids to run screaming in the other direction whenever they see a cop, or remain mute when asked routine questions. Nor am I going to start in with my lessons on Miranda rights while breastfeeding. Or "sit them down and have a talk on how to deal with police."
But I've seen a lot of police conversations that go something like "now you and I know this isn't a big deal, why don't you just tell me what happened and we can all go home, wink wink" - and end in arrest. Kids are especially susceptible to that ploy. So I would want my kids to know that - if they are being questioned as a suspect - they need to politely decline to respond and call me. That's all.
That could be the difference, since it seems like I'm in the minority here. My hometown has a fairly small police force. When I was in HS, several officers engaged in an illegal strip-search of three teenage girls. (They were kept on until the girls' parents won a HUGE civil suit against the city). Another officer was suspended - with pay - for throwing his pregnant girlfriend into the side of a car in the Wal-Mart parking lot. He's still on the force.
So yeah, if my kids were dealing with cops like that (and they probably won't be - I think/hope my hometown is an anomaly) - I would be certain they were aware of their rights.
Edited to add, since apparently it's unclear, this was all posted before I read Milee's clarification about the police situation in her OP. And even before reading that, I never said I thought the kid was in the right for demanding to see an attorney.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:33:58 GMT -5
The clarification did not make his reaction more normal - at least not in my mind. At 12, he should have been terrified.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 11:34:02 GMT -5
Me too. I still get nervous about cops as well. Except for when we got pulled over because DH was trespassing mushroom hunting. I was so mad at my DH. I told the sheriff I had a good mind to just leave DH in the woods and make him walk home. I hadn't even wnated to come mushroom hunting in the first place but my stupid husband made a detour.
Sheriff apparently thought it was pretty funny because he let me off with a $20 parking ticket.
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andreawick
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Post by andreawick on Oct 5, 2012 11:35:09 GMT -5
I think the neighbors are right. If i saw a bunch of kids running through yard with rifles, I'd call the police too.
My yard isn't a laser tag arena, and I how would i know the difference between an "air soft rifle" and real gun? Is an air soft rifle made to look like a real gun or a toy? like a Nerf??
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 5, 2012 11:35:31 GMT -5
They chased the kids through the neighborhood and at some point, someone reported that the police arrived with guns drawn
I would have peed/shit myself and then passed out if I saw a cop coming at me with a gun. No way I would have been able to stand straight and tell them to contact my lawyer.
That makes his mom's reaction even more disturbing. You would have had to peel my parents off the celing if they had found out I had been chased around the neighbor by cops with guns drawn.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Oct 5, 2012 11:36:05 GMT -5
That would scare me even more though. I guess I can't imagine running away from the police when I was 12, especially when I was obviously doing something I shouldn't.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 11:38:17 GMT -5
The more I read about sociopaths, the more I'm sure I used to work with one. She was brutal and would systematically pick a person to destroy either emotionally or professionally, but usually both at once. She was methodically work to back them into a corner and torture them until they quit, or (as in the case with one gal) ended up in some emotional rehab facility. We had one of these were I used to work as well. Thank goodness I didn't report to her but what you described is basically what she would do to people. I actually think she suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. My co-workers and I looked up the 10 traits once and she fit 9 out the 10.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 5, 2012 11:38:53 GMT -5
They chased the kids through the neighborhood and at some point, someone reported that the police arrived with guns drawnI would have peed/shit myself and then passed out if I saw a cop coming at me with a gun. No way I would have been able to stand straight and tell them to contact my lawyer. That makes his mom's reaction even more disturbing. You would have had to peel my parents off the celing if they had found out I had been chased around the neighbor by cops with guns drawn.
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