Reactions to 12 year old's interaction with police

[milee]

Rukh, you're spot on. The red flags are with my friend as well. And I really think a firmer hand could make a huge difference in this kid's life. Right now, it's a toss up to see which way this goes and his mom and dad aren't doing him any favors. It makes me sad and I feel judgmental to think like this.

[movingforward]

"Last Memorial Day, we were all at a family event and there was an issue where some of the 14 year olds snuck into a cooler and downed jello shots containing Vodka. Neither of our kids did this but if they had, I wouldn't be happy but would use it as a teaching moment and also know this is pretty normal behaviour for young boys. When we talked to our kids after the event, my friend initiates the talk with Zander in her usual manner with high-pitched tone and simple language like she's addressing a toddler: "Honey, you didn't drink any of the red jello, did you? No, of course not. You don't even know those had alcohol, did you?" And he immediately responded by morphing his face into a fair impression of the soulful, begging Puss in Boots in the Shrek movie, widening his big blue eyes and innocently stating with almost a lisp, "No, mommy! No." As she hugged him, I could see the mental eye roll he did behind her back."

This kid sounds like piece of work and his manipulation will only get worse as he gets older and this poor woman seems to have her head in the sand

[Deleted]

I certainly wouldn't be proud of my 12yo like this mother was. If the police were just talking to him because he'd done something wrong (which he had), I'd expect him to just suck it up and say "yes sir". I'd be concerned if having the police called on my 12yo didn't scare him some or at least make him nervous.

And milee, based on what you've written, I probably wouldn't want my son spending much time with him either. You have to do what's best for your son, regardless of whose feelings are hurt. Don't put him at risk by hoping he'll be the good influence on this other kid, especially when you're not confident your son can resist the bad influence.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 5, 2012 7:59:44 GMT -5 @shooby said:

I think your neighbors are aresholes. I wouldn't worry about Zander. Hopefully, the open house means these doofuses are moving.

The neighbor did the right thing in calling the police. The neighbor is trying to sell his home. What person s going to buy the home with what a buyer perceives to be actual weapons being carried by neighborhood children?

It's the kid who is the asshole.

[milee]

Oct 5, 2012 9:41:58 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

I think you should have a talk with your son. And lay out all the concerns as have been discussed here. Then ask him what he thinks. He probably has insights that would help a lot.

We have talked a little about Zander, but only at a very broad overview level. My son thinks Zander makes really bad choices and that Zander is not likely to end up "successful" (his words.) On the other hand, Zander is fun to be around and has some cool stuff that my son likes (sounds like a contradiction, but although I let my son shoot a real rifle in a controlled setting with his dad at the range, I would never get him an airsoft gun much less let him roam the neighborhood with it.)

So I think my son knows what/who Zander is, but may not be at the point where he is willing or able to avoid getting sucked in.

[movingforward]

Milee - it sounds like your son is smart and if Zander starts going down the wrong path as he gets older my guess is that your son would probably shy away from him at that point.

[Tennesseer]

The kîd sounds like a sociopath in the making.

[Deleted]

I like how the mother described it as her son's "first encounter with the police". Anyway, I don't see how you can limit your son's time with Zander when you hang out with his mother. Zander isn't the only one that makes bad choices and isn't succesful.

[Deleted]

To follow up on my former point, if you expect your son to challenge Zander you better get better at being up front with the mother. You aren't being a good example in dealing with this so indirectly.

[giramomma]

Zander has very few friends mostly because the other parents don't let him play with their kids. He did have one close friend for years, but when they both transferred to this new school last year, the close friend was very upfront with Zander and explained that although he would always like Zander that he wasn't going to play with him at school any more because he wanted to make sure he didn't get caught up in Zander's trouble any more. I know both Zander and his mom were devastated by that, but I understood where the friend was coming from.

Why were they "devastated?" I'm not devastated when my kids experience natural consequences for their behaviors. Actually, most of the time I'm relieved when my kids experience natural consequences for their behavior. It generally hits home better when the "talks/teach moments/nagging/whatever verbal spew" no longer works.

I don't consider myself a heartless person/parent.

[milee]

Oct 5, 2012 9:59:04 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

So is alcohol or drugs a worry?

Well, I think so. But since I have a fair amount of substance abusers in my family, it's entirely possible I'm not unbiased on this subject.

[swamp]

Oct 5, 2012 10:02:45 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Zander has very few friends mostly because the other parents don't let him play with their kids. He did have one close friend for years, but when they both transferred to this new school last year, the close friend was very upfront with Zander and explained that although he would always like Zander that he wasn't going to play with him at school any more because he wanted to make sure he didn't get caught up in Zander's trouble any more. I know both Zander and his mom were devastated by that, but I understood where the friend was coming from.

Why were they "devastated?" I'm not devastated when my kids experience natural consequences for their behaviors. Actually, most of the time I'm relieved when my kids experience natural consequences for their behavior. It generally hits home better when the "talks/teach moments/nagging/whatever verbal spew" no longer works.

I don't consider myself a heartless person/parent.

they were devastated because mom and zander don't see zander's behavior as a problem and don't get why people don't want to hang with them.

[Formerly SK]

Oct 5, 2012 9:54:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The kîd sounds like a sociopath in the making.

I'm sorry to say it, but you may have to work harder to schedule your kid away from him.

[milee]

Oct 5, 2012 9:59:03 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I like how the mother described it as her son's "first encounter with the police". Anyway, I don't see how you can limit your son's time with Zander when you hang out with his mother. Zander isn't the only one that makes bad choices and isn't succesful.

Yes, I tought the "first" encounter was an odd choice of words as well. Kind of like introducing your current spouse as your "first" wife/husband...

And yes, I think she's making bad choices. But I'm her friend, not her spouse or parent. And as long as I can keep my kid separate, her bad choices aren't impacting him or me. I'm not happy and would love to change things, but not really sure that's realistic or possible.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2012 9:59:03 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

I like how the mother described it as her son's "first encounter with the police". Anyway, I don't see how you can limit your son's time with Zander when you hang out with his mother. Zander isn't the only one that makes bad choices and isn't succesful.

They can do things together without the kids. I have a long-time friend who has a daughter I didn't really want my daughter to be close friends with. We hung out together but we didn't do many family outings together.

[milee]

Oct 5, 2012 10:00:55 GMT -5 @justaposter said:

To follow up on my former point, if you expect your son to challenge Zander you better get better at being up front with the mother. You aren't being a good example in dealing with this so indirectly.

To begin with, my son isn't a party to 99% of these discussions. They're adult matters and it would be inappropriate to betray a confidence by sharing a play by play, IMHO. So my son would not know what I did or didn't say or do in regards to these situations.

But on a practical note, what is your suggestion on this? Most of the things that this friend and I do happen while the kids are at school or during a time when my husband watches my kids, she gets a babysitter and we go out. There are maybe 2 family outings a year (such as the Memorial Day one), where everybody is in one place. She and I are members of several of the same organizations and it would not be possible to completely avoid seeing her even if I wanted to - which honestly I don't. So what exactly do you think I need to do here?

[Formerly SK]

Oct 5, 2012 9:36:06 GMT -5 milee said:

Rukh, you're spot on. The red flags are with my friend as well. And I really think a firmer hand could make a huge difference in this kid's life. Right now, it's a toss up to see which way this goes and his mom and dad aren't doing him any favors. It makes me sad and I feel judgmental to think like this.

I realize you are emotionally invested in the relationship, but you should NEVER feel judgmental about seeing the writing on the wall. The boy shows no fear towards police, thinks it's fine to carry realistic toy weapons around the neighborhood, and blames a neighbor for acting appropriately. The lack of judgement on THEIR part is amazing and you recognizing that will help protect YOUR family.

FYI - I grew up in a criminal background so I'm hyper vigilant about character and judgment.

[Angel!]

Oct 5, 2012 9:54:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The kîd sounds like a sociopath in the making.

That would be my concern. I wouldn't want my kid hanging out with this guy either.

What would bother me if I was the mother is even if the kid wasn't intimidated by the police, he should have been apologetic. It isn't within your rights to wander through other people's property & the kid should be old enough to know that.

IMO it is just a bad response to puff up & insist on a lawyer when you were in the wrong on a minor issue. Police are far more likely to let things slide when you just say I'm sorry, won't happen again. That attitude is just asking to get charged with trespassing.

The mother's attitude is a huge problem in all this.

[happyhoix]

We had neighbors across the street who had a son about my son's age, plus two other older kids. Their dad didn't get involved in their lives much and their mom was exactly like this mother - incapable off thinking that her children ever did anything wrong. She was constantly going to school to stand up for how her kids were being 'mistreated' for violating a rule or failing to do homework, etc.

All three of their kids ran off the rails - the oldest joined the army and got kicked out within six months, the middle child, a girl, got married right out of HS, divorced in 6 months and a meth addict 6 months after that, and the youngest, the one DS hung around with, got charged with rape (not sure what happened with that) and then convicted on some drug charges.

When DH was a parole officer, he said a good percentage of the criminals had their mommas come in on their weekly visits to DH, and the mommas loved to explain to DH how their son was a 'good boy' who just got with 'the wrong crowd' and was convicted for something 'some other dude' did.

You don't do your kid any favors by ignoring their bad actions. Running through the neighborhood with guns, trespassing on someone else's yard, being arrogant with the police - these are all things that, in our house, would have meet with disciplinary action. At the very least, he wouldn't have kept that gun and he wouldn't be playing with those kids for a long while.

[milee]

Oct 5, 2012 10:20:12 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

I don't get why people think zander is so terrible. He was playing with airsoft guns and used neighbors yard as part of the play area. He understood and told police he had rights. He plays his mother.

He's not stealing. He's doing well in school. He not vandalizing stuff. He is a smart capable kid with a mother he plays on. Most kids would get away with more if they could. Your kids would probably get away with more if they could figure out how ro play you, there just not smart enough to.

I say just watch and be vigilant if you see reason

Playing with airsoft guns or playing in the neighbor's yard isn't really the issue for me - those are kind of minor boy things and more the problem of the parents to set better boundaries. And he is a smart kid.

My largest problem with the situation was his reaction to police. That reaction strikes me as someone who is not afraid of police, which at that age means he doesn't respect or fear them. Which is the same issue he's having with parents and all other authorities. I want my kids to at least respect the police and authorities, and a little fear isn't a bad thing.

He is not, however, doing well in school and has had an inordinate amount of behaviour issues. This is definitely the kid that has been voted "most likely to shoplift" or "most likely to break/steal a neighbor's skateboard." I do not ever let him around my 8 year old because in the past, he purposely waits until nobody is looking and torments him. In other words, this kid has issues and is extremely manipulative. That worries me.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2012 10:20:12 GMT -5 @bloomscuzzer said:

I don't get why people think zander is so terrible. He was playing with airsoft guns and used neighbors yard as part of the play area. He understood and told police he had rights. He plays his mother.

He's not stealing. He's doing well in school. He not vandalizing stuff. He is a smart capable kid with a mother he plays on. Most kids would get away with more if they could. Your kids would probably get away with more if they could figure out how ro play you, there just not smart enough to.

I say just watch and be vigilant if you see reason

I don't think zander is necessarily "terrible", but I think milee is correct to be cautious where her son is concerned. A clueless parent and a crafty, manipulative kid has the potential to go bad. Some kids, once they see they can get away with one thing, move on to something bigger/worse. Repeat until it gets really bad.

At 12, he's questioned by the police and cool as a cucumber and asserts that he has rights, even though he WAS doing something wrong AND his Mom is proud of him and calls the neighbor a jackass............ yeah I can see the potential for problems.

If his friends are deciding it's in their best interests to stay away from Zander, that's a bad sign imo.

[swamp]

I'm not feeling particularly articulate this morning, so I'm not explaining myself well, but I see where Milee is coming from.

I dont' care about the airsoft rifles. I don't care about running through a neighbors yard. that's normal boy stuff. what worries me is mom's reaction to call the neighbor an ass when her kid was in the wrong. It's also troublesome that he's so calm around the police at 12.

I deal with criminals daily. The manipulation, the mommy covering, the tormenting the little kid, those are all big red flags. Do you know how many mommies of criminals call me to tell me their little boy is just misunderstood, he's learning disabled, the police pick on him, he hangs with a bag crowd, it was just a misunderstanding?

[Deleted]

Any 12 year old who, when confronted by police in a situation where he is clearly in the wrong, can calmly asset his rights to a lawyer and refuses to co-operate, is serious trouble in the making.

Little Zander needs some firm boundary setting and tough love from mommy (is daddy in the picture at all?), before he graduates from air guns to real guns and decides to hold up the local convenience store when he needs some money.

[Deleted]

Before you conclude he'll end up as the next Ted Bundy, I don't think that's a foregone conclusion... but it's a possibility.

I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing so there are therapists that focus on controlling the behavior. My cousin's child is definitely a sociopath or something similar, very manipulative, tortures animals, etc. He's been to several different therapists and targeted intervention group. I think my cousin quit taking him though.

The sad thing about Zander is that he needs some therapy NOW. It's obvious he's already not integrating with other people and it's becoming a self-reinforcing cycle.

[Deleted]

I would be all for my son telling the police officer, in a respectful manner, that he is aware of his rights and has been instructed by his parents to always ask for a lawyer and wait for a parent before answering the questions of a police officer.

And then when I got there, we would have both been asking what he was doing on the neighbor's property with an air soft gun...

The kid described thinks there was no fault of his at all, i'm guessing, but with kids I know like this, it is the same in every instance... they are right and entitled to whatever they want to do, and everyone else has the problem... and Mom is solidifying this argument...

[Deleted]

And you are certain he reaction to police is as his mother described?

Even if that's just how he told it to his mother, her relaying it to me and saying she was proud of him would be cause for concern about HER thought processes in regard to the child she's raising. Still not good.

[swamp]

Oct 5, 2012 10:41:37 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Before you conclude he'll end up as the next Ted Bundy, I don't think that's a foregone conclusion... but it's a possibility.

I read somewhere that only a tiny percentage of sociopaths end up killing so there are therapists that focus on controlling the behavior. My cousin's child is definitely a sociopath or something similar, very manipulative, tortures animals, etc. He's been to several different therapists and targeted intervention group. I think my cousin quit taking him though.

The sad thing about Zander is that he needs some therapy NOW. It's obvious he's already not integrating with other people and it's becoming a self-reinforcing cycle.

my friend's former step son is a sociopath. my friend tried to get him help but mom just said people pick on him/he's misunderstood/boys will be boys.

He was about 14 and tried to molest my friend's son. Mom still doesn't think there is a problem.

[thyme4change]

Milee - this story does have a huge red flag - but it's not from Zander - it's from mom.

If (and this would be a huge deal) the Mom was able to think critically about her son and his actions, then the best thing would be family counseling to create a new family dynamic. However, if (and this is highly likely) the Mom will never think her son is responsible for anything, things will just get worse.

I was the bad influence when I was younger. I had to keep it in check because when things got too real, my Dad would step in - and I couldn't play him like I could my Mom. Thank god he was there to draw a line in the sand. I could have been a much more productive youth/young adult if there had been more daily discipline - but at least there was an adequate amount that I never got too far off the path.

[Deleted]

Callous-unemotional children tend to be highly manipulative, Frick notes. They also lie frequently — not just to avoid punishment, as all children will, but for any reason, or none. “Most kids, if you catch them stealing a cookie from the jar before dinner, they’ll look guilty,” Frick says. “They want the cookie, but they also feel bad. Even kids with severe A.D.H.D.: they may have poor impulse control, but they still feel bad when they realize that their mom is mad at them.” Callous-unemotional children are unrepentant. “They don’t care if someone is mad at them,” Frick says. “They don’t care if they hurt someone’s feelings.” Like adult psychopaths, they can seem to lack humanity. “If they can get what they want without being cruel, that’s often easier,” Frick observes. “But at the end of the day, they’ll do whatever works best.”

www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/magazine/can-you-call-a-9-year-old-a-psychopath.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Tennesseer]

It sounds like it's too late for the mother to correct his behavior. She lost all control a longtime ago.

Here's a description of a sociopath. While this kid may not be exhibiting all these behaviors, he may have some of them. Milee may recognize some of them.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

More here: www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html