Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 5, 2012 11:40:16 GMT -5
The clarification did not make his reaction more normal - at least not in my mind. At 12, he should have been terrified. OMG it makes the reaction even worse!! How fucking stupid do you have to be to RUN from a cop while carrying a realistic looking gun? ??
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:43:03 GMT -5
I just looked that up and my gal seemed to have most of those, too. I also did not report to her. She tried to come at me, and I rallied my troops, so she backed off and took up with someone else. I told my boss he had 90 days to find my replacement because I would not work with her any more. She was fired shortly after that, although that was in process long before my ultimatum. The timing just worked out for me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:44:47 GMT -5
LOL - Formerly SK - I'm with you, but I didn't want to say anything too blunt, because I guess I'm the worst parent in the world and my kids are going to be put in jail for something they didn't do because I won't teach them (or be proud of them) to ask for a lawyer. Seriously, our crime fighting forces aren't that corrupt or that stupid.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 11:53:46 GMT -5
Where the fuck did that come from?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:54:00 GMT -5
See?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 11:56:06 GMT -5
See what?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 11:57:53 GMT -5
LOL
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 12:00:43 GMT -5
That's why I said "if you're a suspect." I never meant to imply that I'm going to teach my kids to run screaming in the other direction whenever they see a cop, or remain mute when asked routine questions. Nor am I going to start in with my lessons on Miranda rights while breastfeeding. Or "sit them down and have a talk on how to deal with police." But I've seen a lot of police conversations that go something like "now you and I know this isn't a big deal, why don't you just tell me what happened and we can all go home, wink wink" - and end in arrest. Kids are especially susceptible to that ploy. So I would want my kids to know that - if they are being questioned as a suspect - they need to politely decline to respond and call me. That's all. That could be the difference, since it seems like I'm in the minority here. My hometown has a fairly small police force. When I was in HS, several officers engaged in an illegal strip-search of three teenage girls. (They were kept on until the girls' parents won a HUGE civil suit against the city). Another officer was suspended - with pay - for throwing his pregnant girlfriend into the side of a car in the Wal-Mart parking lot. He's still on the force. So yeah, if my kids were dealing with cops like that (and they probably won't be - I think/hope my hometown is an anomaly) - I would be certain they were aware of their rights. Edited to add, since apparently it's unclear, this was all posted before I read Milee's clarification about the police situation in her OP. And even before reading that, I never said I thought the kid was in the right for demanding to see an attorney. Gotcha.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 12:12:35 GMT -5
Seriously, I'm confused. I get that you disagree with me, but I never called you a horrible parent...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:16:54 GMT -5
Hyperbole and joking.
Everyone who doesn't have kids knows how to raise them.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 5, 2012 12:19:22 GMT -5
I used to be a prosecutor and still get the butterflies when I get pulled over by the cops. At 12, I probably would have wet myself and cried. Really? I usually just say "Oh F$#%!" My last few interactions with the police were very positive for me for the most part. Generally I was happy to have them show up because they were needed for the situation. So I guess I just have a more positive view than many of the police. Even my last speeding ticket she only wrote for 8 over rather than 18 because I was wrong on which intersection had the change in speed limit (speed limit dropped to 55 one mile before I thought it did) & she was being nice.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 12:23:08 GMT -5
Hyperbole and joking. Everyone who doesn't have kids knows how to raise them. True, except I never said one word about how anyone else should raise their kids. All I said was that was what I would try to teach my kids. (A post which you later mocked). In the future I'll do my best to avoid having any opinions on anything child-related until a child actually emerges from my body.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 12:23:53 GMT -5
This is all second hand, but my dad was accused of commiting a burglery he didn't do when he was a teenager. He just happened to be seen around the crime scene by someone.
The cops came to his school and took him out of class. They acted like they had all the evidence wrapped up and it would just be better for him to confess or it would be worse on him.
Fortunately, he didn't confess and called his dad (my grandfather).
I guess I'm in the minority. Just because you assert your rights to police doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it. It's helpful if everyone, including kids, knows their rights and knows to how to RESPECTULLY invoke them. There's nothing wrong with teaching children to be polite and respectful to police, but not to talk to them if the police are indicating they might be a criminal.
I don't see the issue with how the kid in question handled the police, the problem is the mother is accusing the neighbor of being a bitch.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:30:33 GMT -5
That isn't what I meant at all. It is just that raising kids is different than what you expect. Things I thought I would have made a high priority don't seem to apply - my children are different than I was expecting, their problems aren't what I had planned, my solutions aren't relevant. Maybe someday I'll be teaching my children that the only thing you should ever say to a policeman is "I demand a lawyer." But, frankly, I think that will cause a lot more problems than it will solve. I think there are plenty of times you should have a calm respectful conversation with police, and other times you should watch out for yourself. My son is very literal right now - so he wouldn't be able to process the difference. Life is complicated. There is no one right answer. At some point, you must teach your children good judgement. And I don't believe that good judgement dictates that an aggressive stance with the police is correct every time.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 12:31:25 GMT -5
The clarification did not make his reaction more normal - at least not in my mind. At 12, he should have been terrified. If a cop approached me and said they thought I'd killed someone I'd probably be terrified. That doesn't mean I'd suddenly forget that I'm entitled to talk to a lawyer. The bigger issue seems to be with something everyone seems to be ok with, and that's the cops trying to "scare the kids". They show up, scare the kids straight, then send them home. Their job isn't to teach life lessons, it's to enforce the law.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:31:47 GMT -5
Also, mid, you are far from the only person on here that is suggesting that the police shouldn't be trusted.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 12:32:06 GMT -5
If I were arrested today, I don't think I'd cry or pass out or pee my pants or anything. I'd be nervous and probably show it. I would just clam up and not say anything until I got legal counsel. If the cops asked me questions or wanted to talk to me, I'd just politely say I won't answer any questions until I get legal counsel. Period end of story.
I'm not going to "puff up" and act indignent or get an attitude. Just stay quiet and state I won't say anything if they ask me any questions. Otherwise I'll follow their instructions.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 12:34:13 GMT -5
Also for people who didn't read the OP, it clearly indicates he "wasn't snippy" and there's nothing that says he copped an attitude. He said he wanted to see a lawyer and his parent...that's precisely what he SHOULD be doing.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Oct 5, 2012 12:36:12 GMT -5
Also, mid, you are far from the only person on here that is suggesting that the police shouldn't be trusted. I wouldn't go as far as to say police can't be trusted, but there's nothing wrong with having a health skepticism of police. They aren't always out for your best interest. Police aren't perfect, and sometimes they'll go after the easy person rather than the right person. Don't act like nobody has ever been accused of a crime they didn't commit.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 12:37:31 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority. Just because you assert your rights to police doesn't mean you have to be a jerk about it. It's helpful if everyone, including kids, knows their rights and knows to how to RESPECTULLY invoke them. There's nothing wrong with teaching children to be polite and respectful to police, but not to talk to them if the police are indicating they might be a criminal. I don't see the issue with how the kid in question handled the police, the problem is the mother is accusing the neighbor of being a bitch. Phoenix, it's difficult to articulate, so I'm probably not doing a good job of it. A large part of my reaction is that I deal with dozens of other 12/13 year olds regularly and have a pretty good idea how they react to things. In my experience, the great majority of the kids would be scared and as respectful as possible of the police. The few that I know that would not be at all scared (other than those who have police in their family so regularly interact with them socially) are either not reacting because they have had repeated encounters with the police (not good, but not the case here) or who have a reaction that is extremely atypical. As a parent it's reasonable to examine why a child's reaction is atypical. Is the lack of fear due to him not understanding the situation? Probably not, he's highly intelligent. So what is the lack of fear and worry due to? Again, I have no issues with a kid who decides not to talk to the police and wants to wait for the parents. But I think the manner in which it is done does provide some indications.
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 12:39:03 GMT -5
If I were arrested today, I don't think I'd cry or pass out or pee my pants or anything. I'd be nervous and probably show it. I would just clam up and not say anything until I got legal counsel. Yes and that's a typical reaction for an adult. Normal 12 year olds tend to be at least a little scared, worried or remorseful.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 12:40:07 GMT -5
I completely agree. I think my perspective is skewed, partially because of my experiences with law enforcement (seriously Phoenix, what is up with Indiana cops?), and partially because DH is one of those people who CANNOT keep his mouth shut, and who volunteers information to his own detriment. The kind who upon being asked for license and registration says "I know I was speeding but you should also know that my tags are expired and I have a taillight out." So I always figured if our kids took after him at all, they're going to need that lesson drilled into them at some point, since it still hasn't "taken" with DH.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 12:41:23 GMT -5
Lack of recognition of authority is one of the trademark red flags of sociopathy/psychopathy. I think your instincts on this are correct.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Oct 5, 2012 12:44:53 GMT -5
Lack of recognition of authority is one of the trademark red flags of sociopathy/psychopathy. I think your instincts on this are correct. Since when is saying "I'd like to speak to my lawyer and mother" a "lack of recognition of authority" given that he wasn't snippy about it. It's not as if he unzipped and told the officer to "suck it". I think this is part of the problem with a large portion of society, and which encourages the police to overstep their bounds, insisting that you be given your due rights is seen as disrespectful or somehow a character flaw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:45:12 GMT -5
My father was also accused of something he didn't do as a teen... I called my stepfather who is a retired state police officer, and he said it was moot to him, no officer should be questioning a kid without his parents.... but that yes, if an officer was questioning the kids, they should definately say they need to have a parent present... he didn't have an opinion on the lawyer thing one way or the other, but said snarky would probably predispose him to think 'guilty'... but regardless you don't question a kid without a parent present. And again, it isn't just the actual police officers I worry about when telling a kid not to blindly trust a person who seems to be in a position of authority. Its people who could use the authority of a uniform in a nefarious manner. I would ask for ID and if I was on a deserted road, I might not even pull over immediately if I was alone... I just don't think blind trust is a good thing to teach. Safe and cautious first. I am surprised that people think the kid was wrong to ask for his lawyer and/or his mother. That i have no problem with. I wonder at his reaction, first being snippy is not ok, second the fact that he did not seem at all upset/shaken by the incident, as others have said. And I think the originating behavior is an issue. But do you really think its wrong that he knew his rights and used them?
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milee
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Post by milee on Oct 5, 2012 12:45:33 GMT -5
Milee - you seem to be focused on poor zander's flaws here, and giving your enabling friend a pass. No and I'm sorry to have given that impression. Let me be clear - I think Zander may have some serious tendencies, but that his parents have done very little to help him and done many things that have actively made him worse or enabled the worst traits to develop fully. I think genes delivered a tough set of circumstances here, but that if the parents worked hard and made some tough choices that Zander could be helped. I'm sad for my friend because she's both ill equipped and emotionally incapable of doing what I think needs to be done and I feel sad for Zander because I can see he may be headed for some serious issues. I'm just trying to keep my kid from being caught in whatever happens.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2012 12:47:32 GMT -5
I understand that - but the most likely place for an interaction is a traffic stop. I really, really, really, really, really don't want my kids to do something stupid and turn a traffic stop into a huge deal because they think by speeding they are going to be accused of murder. I disagree with the poster that told her daughter to refuse to deal with a male police man and sit patiently while waiting for a female office to show up. A great way to annoy the police and waste a bunch of tax payer dollars is to have her be respectfully militant about only speaking to a female. I think she could turn a 5 minute conversation, possibly ending in a warning into a 30 minute ordeal, most likely ending in a ticket. If they are calling a second car to the scene - they are going to be itching for that revenue. I also think it is weakening the position of women and sending the message that women can't deal with men effectively. I will never tell my daughter that. If she can't handle a traffic stop, she might as well join some fundamentalist group where she isn't allowed to speak.
But, people tell their kids all kinds of things, and if my daughter is raped by a police officer, then I will have been wrong.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 5, 2012 12:48:06 GMT -5
Lack of recognition of authority is one of the trademark red flags of sociopathy/psychopathy. I think your instincts on this are correct. It's also a flag that the kid knows he won't get in trouble, regardless. Probably because he's never gotten in trouble for anything before - like the jello shot. Mommy doesn't think he's capable of bad things. He's got her completely snowed and he knows it.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 5, 2012 12:48:21 GMT -5
The kid is twelve years old! Even if he was perfectly respectful, I think that - following an armed police chase - any "normal" kid would either be hysterical or mute. I'm 28, and if I saw a cop with a gun pointed at me, I'd probably start crying myself.
I'm not saying he was wrong for asserting his rights - quite the opposite. But the unemotional response to a highly charged situation (in combination with Milee's other posts on this kid - not just in this thread) is unusual, to say the least.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 12:49:44 GMT -5
I did misread the OP... I thought he WAS snippy... If he was respectful, I would not have thought it a big problem to respond to the police in that way. I would have been concerned if he felt no fear/was not upset by the incident.
I also would not have thought it was ok for him to be running through the neighbors yards playing air soft guns. I would not have given him a pass on that like the mother did.
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