flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Aug 23, 2012 17:48:19 GMT -5
I don't get how people get through life with out a picture ID. I've produced my ID (driver's license) so many times this week but not to a point that I feel that it is ridiculous.
ID'd for... Picking up boarding passes and to pass through security at the airport Getting a rental car Checking into a hotel Buying a beer Looking at apartments Going into AT&T to discuss changing my cell plan Shopping (I guess this may be a rare occurrence for some)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 23, 2012 18:06:55 GMT -5
Ken, voter fraud may be small where you live but it isn't small everywhere. It is an issue here. It was an issue in Chicago in the 1960 presidential election. Dead people still vote. The biggest cure for preventing people voting using the identities of dead people is to update the voter rolls regularly and in a timely fashion. Requiring ID for in person voting does nothing for mail in ballots or oher voter fraud like missing machines or messing with the software of those machines. I think in person voter fraud is the least likely kind of voter fraud to exist in the last decade.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Aug 23, 2012 20:58:13 GMT -5
its not like there are ulterior motives in this or anything - right? How this isn't a BFD here in PA, it irks me. State Supreme Court is fast-tracking the appeal: www.philly.com/philly/blogs/cityhall/GOP-state-Rep-clarifies-claims-of-being-voter-fraud-victim.html?cmpid=124488459An ID law that just passed in this state shouldn't be enacted until 2013. There is a maddening amount of mixed up information out there (ie, is a passport good enough? some elderly people are getting mixed messages and spending unnecessary time and money trying to get birth certificates and social security cards that match), and it would serve everyone well to ensure that all eligible voters can exercise their rights. Two hundred plus years of signature requirements are just going to rehashed in months? I am glad, though, to see the spirit of civic and voter pride alive and well around here. Committee of Seventy is working with many organizations and volunteers around the state to make sure all eligible voters can exercise their right to vote.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Aug 23, 2012 21:04:38 GMT -5
The biggest cure for preventing people voting using the identities of dead people is to update the voter rolls regularly and in a timely fashion. Requiring ID for in person voting does nothing for mail in ballots or oher voter fraud like missing machines or messing with the software of those machines. I think in person voter fraud is the least likely kind of voter fraud to exist in the last decade. Mail in ballots can be returned by the postal service as deceased. It isn't easy to update voter rolls on a regular basis. One doesn't know if a person just skipped an election, temporarily was out of town or died. Plus, you need a voter ID number to keep track of the rolls. ...I'll concede the difficulty of ensuring accurate elections with mail in ballots... the voter ID law won't do much to address those... and there are a ton of those... the entire state of Oregon uses mail in ballots, for crying out loud... so yes, it's not easy to keep voter rolls updated and verifying that the voter did vote for themselves and not for every adult in their household...
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flopsy
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Post by flopsy on Aug 23, 2012 21:22:54 GMT -5
Maybe this shows me to be a white middle class snob I am going to use this at least once a week from now on
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on Aug 23, 2012 21:26:11 GMT -5
Voter fraud is the articulated reason for requiring i.d.
Money is the argument that it is disenfranchising the poor, because i.d's cost money.
Let's face it. It's not about voter fraud or disenfranchising the poor. Voter fraud is more easily accomplished by absentee voting, not counting ballots, rigging voting machines, etc. The poor can and do often have some form of government issued photo i.d. And if they don't and want to vote, they don't have to save up $2 per month for a year. They just need to allocate their spending differently. State i.d's are relatively inexpensive and it doesn't take more than a month of prioritizing your spending to do. Somehow I think relatively few people who lack i.d. are going without food to pay for an i.d. to vote.
There could be random exceptions but they are not widespread.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Aug 23, 2012 23:09:42 GMT -5
Not to sound snarky but did you bother to research the requirements for your state before you tried to do this? The VA DMV has a full page of what you need on their website and in their publications. And when looking at it yesterday, they've even added a tool to help you figure out just what you needed for which type of ID and/or DL. Yes it is all a hassle but when people wait until the last minute and then complain they won't be able to get an ID before November because they are missing this, that or the other required document I have no sympathy. It was a few years ago when I went, but I looked up the MVA location online to find the location and what to bring. I don't recall the specifics but I do know the online information did not match the policies at the local office. At least one of the employees was being intentionally difficult and told me that Maryland had enough people and they didn't need any more moving here. I ended up having to take some time off of work to get all my paperwork squared away with the Social Security office, MVA, mechanic for car inspection, etc. I was fortunate that although it was a new job they were very flexible with my time.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Aug 24, 2012 1:30:48 GMT -5
My grandmother was forbidden to drive by her state a few years ago (good choice by the judge, age related issues made her a menace). She is also wheel chair bound. She doesn't get money/aid from the government and she doesn't need to use her id at the bank (trust/cpa), so she doesn't have one. I know, I know, she is a 90 year old woman who is just full of excuses. She does manage to get her 90 year old booty to the voting booth on her own dime for every statewide and national election though.
Really, on a personal level I think that if you don't have your act together enough to have ID, I don't want your vote.
However, when I consider things such as the constitution and the rule of law, my personal feelings and thoughts on the matter seem less important.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Aug 24, 2012 7:30:36 GMT -5
They lack ID because they leave it at home ?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 24, 2012 11:53:47 GMT -5
This whole thread made me laugh. It just shows how many on here have no idea what it is like to be poor or live off grid.
It can very difficult to get an ID if you lack the documents required to get an ID. Then getting each of those documents can be a hassle & require some other form of ID & money to get. In my state you pretty much can't get a ID unless you under 21 or already have some form of photo ID. So if you are 22, live with friends, never bothered to get an ID, then you are kind of screwed.
Then on top of that you might need a SS card. Don't have your SS card, well you need a birth certificate & some sort of ID to get one. Don't have your birth certificate. Well if you are out of state, now you need to order one. In texas you can order online only if you have a credit card. If you have never had ID, well you probably don't have credit card. So you have to send an application through the mail, which takes 6-8 weeks unless you want to pay a lot extra to have it rushed. But, you need a photo ID to order a birth certificate, which you don't have or you wouldn't need the birth certificate. You can opt to send several other documents showing your name and address. But, if you are 22, crashing with friends, don't work, don't have a bank account, then you probably don't have many (any) documents showing an address for yourself.
Which brings us back to the other requirement in my state to get an ID - proof of address. If you live with someone, don't have your name on the mortgage/lease, on any bills, don't have a bank account, and haven't been working, don't get any sort of welfare, then what do you have that shows your address?
And if you are a true transient & live on the street & in shelters, then what would you even use for an address? Here are the requirements for proof of address:
Utility bill, Credit Card statement, pay stub or earning statement, rent receipt, phone bill, bank statement, mortgage document, tax document, homeowners/renters insurance policy, transcript or report card from an accredited school or vehicle registration.
Sure it is hard to imagine most people don't have many of those documents. But, is it really hard to imagine that a few people actually don't have one of those?
Ex called me this morning trying to get an ID, which is why I read this thread. He didn't have anything with proof of address & wanted to know what to do. He doesn't rent, doesn't have a car, doesn't have a bank account, doesn't currently work, he is pretty much off-grid right now. I looked at the list & was like "oh shit, I don't know". After a lot of thought I realized I had his last years W-2, which has my address. So it is the only thing he could use.
I still don't know if he is able to get the ID because he lost his only photo ID, which was his old driver's license. He can't just replace it because his license was suspended, so he has to get a state ID card instead. He is hoping because he is in the system that they will take that as his photo ID. I think they will, but if they don't I really don't know what he will do to get an ID.
It is easy as a middle class person with a house, bank account, bills, credit cards, & already having forms of ID to not see how this could be an issue. But, for some people it is really a PITA to get an ID because they don't have the documents needed & getting those documents is a PITA & all of it costs money.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2012 12:42:35 GMT -5
And they have resources for assistance available to them that the average citizen does not. The 'average citizen' doesn't need more resources, because it's all written in a language we understand. But while there are some resources to help others out in certain situations, there is not 24/7 assistance with every phone call, every internet search, every trip to the courthouse, DMV, etc. I have sympathy for people navigating any system in a language that is not the language of their heart. I've been in foreign countries, and even in places where I knew a little of the local language, things that the local people took for granted were overwhelming to me. I broke down and cried the first time I tried to navigate a bustling, crowded Italian train station! Easy-peasy to someone who was used to them, and who spoke Italian - but for me, it was an alien world. We are talking about voting here So, we should cater to people of other cultures to VOTE in elections? If you are a citizen, you should be able to read and comprehend the basics of getting an ID If you are a resident alien, you dont have voting rights When i was in Europe, i had a difficult time getting around until i learned enough of the language to make it easier on myself But i wasnt voting in their elections...or putting my two cents in on how they should run"their" country
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Aug 24, 2012 23:03:44 GMT -5
a final note - if photo ID is required - should not that jurisdiction offer photo id free of charge? And also provide or pay for all supporting documentation that is needed for this purpose? Otherwise - it is a poll tax - and not just of money but a series of hoops to be jumped over weeks or even months prior to the election. How is it a poll tax? You have to show ID to buy alcohol, cigarettes, sudafed, etc. The states that require that ID for these activities don't provide free IDs to smokers, alcoholics, or people with colds. I don't see how it is a burden to have an ID which states your name and has your picture. If you want to be part of deciding how our country is run, you should at least have enough responsibility to figure out how to get an ID. And if it is that much drama to get one, I would think that person would be responsible enough to take care of it and not lose it while making their million moves and couch surfing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 8:52:31 GMT -5
You are not given a constitutional right and responsibilty to buy alcohol and cigarettes... we have decided that everyone should be allowed to vote without paying a fee... if you have to show ID to vote, and have to pay for the ID, then you are having to pay to vote... I am perfectly fine with having to show an ID card to vote, but then I think they should be free, and the government should offer assistance to help people get to the necessary offices to obtain their free ID card...
Even under 22 can be hard to get a picture ID... when i went to get son's passport years ago, it was a long drawn out process because of what they would and would not accept as form of ID, and they would not take his birth certificate... I had to have paperwork signed by his pediatrician saying he had been in his care since birth... not sure what would have happened if we had moved frequently? ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 9:29:19 GMT -5
Sorry... a birth certificate was not enough to get the social security card i needed for him to use as id for a passport... In my state (as i would assume in most states) it is also necessary to have a social security card to get a valid state ID... so you must first get the SS card... and getting that first was very difficult in my son's case. The one issued at birth was somehow misplaced, and they will not accept a birth certificate as form of identification for a SS card...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 10:04:50 GMT -5
Yes, he had none of those... they say specifically a birth certificate is not a form of ID... the only one i could obtain was a certified medical record... which i luckily did have the ability to track down... My only puprose was to suggest that it is not necessarily an easy process... and if i hadn't gotten him a passport... its quite possible he wouldn't have had the required documents easily available to him at 18... through no fault of his own... to readily obtain an ID card in order to vote...
Its not always an easy process. But, as i've said before, i don't mind making it a requirement, as long as it there is a waiting time for it to go into effect in order to allow people to work through the process, it is free, and there is assistance given to obtain the necessary documentation... otherwise, yes, I consider it a poll tax, and undue burden placed disproprotionately on specific segments of the population...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 11:23:17 GMT -5
Sorry... a birth certificate was not enough to get the social security card i needed for him to use as id for a passport... In my state (as i would assume in most states) it is also necessary to have a social security card to get a valid state ID... so you must first get the SS card... and getting that first was very difficult in my son's case. The one issued at birth was somehow misplaced, and they will not accept a birth certificate as form of identification for a SS card... SS cards have been required at birth I know since 1986. So because his was lost it becomes someone elses problem? But not everyone effected by this law was born after 1986.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 25, 2012 18:57:55 GMT -5
I still believe that voter ID laws are a good idea.
If you really care about voting, you'll get your shit together. People who are motivated will still be able to vote.
If you're so poor you can't afford an ID, I'd support free ID's for those people. As for getting the required documentation, again, if you're motivated you'll find them.
And you've got to have SOMETHING if you're getting assistance. As goldenpaintgirl pointed out, you need to prove your income, bank accounts, birth certificates ect. I think the whole issue of the poor lacking ID is overblown.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 25, 2012 18:59:29 GMT -5
"The 'average citizen' doesn't need more resources, because it's all written in a language we understand. But while there are some resources to help others out in certain situations, there is not 24/7 assistance with every phone call, every internet search, every trip to the courthouse, DMV, etc. I have sympathy for people navigating any system in a language that is not the language of their heart. I've been in foreign countries, and even in places where I knew a little of the local language, things that the local people took for granted were overwhelming to me. I broke down and cried the first time I tried to navigate a bustling, crowded Italian train station! Easy-peasy to someone who was used to them, and who spoke Italian - but for me, it was an alien world."
Last I checked voting was for U.S citizens. Why should we change our system to cater for forigners. If you are a U.S Citizen you should have a working knowledge of english. If you don't that's your problem.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Aug 25, 2012 22:39:27 GMT -5
warning...rant ahead! We seem to have taken a bad turn in this country where everyone whines about their "rights" and how they are owed this and that. They see to forget that with rights comes RESPONSIBILITY. People are fast to demand their rights but are quick to forget their part in the responsibility. One of the reasons that adults have more rights and priviledges (sp?) is because, in theory, we have more responsibility (That's why we can vote, join the military, consent to sex, buy alcohol/cigarettes/porn, gamble, etc). If you don't want to accept the responsbility that you play in this, then understand that you will end up forfeiting your rights. The govt is not your mama. They aren't responsible for making you dinner, tucking you in at night, or making sure you have your ID. If you want to be adult enough to help make decisions about how our country is run, you can figure out how to be adult enough to get an ID. I would also wonder how many of the elderly people that they feature in these pity articles are on Social Security and Medicare. The ones that were born in the backwoods millions of years ago when they were recording births on stone tablets managed to get enough documentation to prove they were legit at some point to collect SS and Medicare. So, now we are down to they can go through the trouble to get the paperwork if it gets them healthcare and $1k a month but it's too hard when getting an ID to vote. Again, we are back to priorities and responsibilities. The other issue I have with is this that everyone seems to think that the legislation should address their specific situation. I know we are all "special snowflakes" and that Congress should stop before enacting all laws to consider how it will affect every person but let's get real. That would be too costly. If the legislation works for the majority of people and you have some funky "special" situation, you can probably figure out how to remedy it. I know many lower income people and the ones that I know who have all of these special situations and are always losing ID, etc are in this situation because of their own actions (or lack of action, in some cases). They make the drama, they can be responsible for fixing it.... Okay, rant over...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2012 22:51:27 GMT -5
One thing the legislation should consider before they make a law is its constitutionality, I think... And it really doesn't matter how much you think a person should pony up and do the right thing... our constitution says you can not charge people a fee in order to vote... and so, I can not see an ID law, which requires the paying of a fee to obtain, being constitutional... so I guess we'll just have to wait and see....
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Aug 26, 2012 0:38:32 GMT -5
One thing the legislation should consider before they make a law is its constitutionality, I think... And it really doesn't matter how much you think a person should pony up and do the right thing... our constitution says you can not charge people a fee in order to vote... and so, I can not see an ID law, which requires the paying of a fee to obtain, being constitutional... so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.... Fair enough. I agree that constitutionality should be the first thing considered. However, my understanding of these laws is that ID is only a requirement to vote in person. If you are voting via absentee ballot, you don't have to show an ID (I don't know how they would enforce it othewise...show the mailman your ID?). So, by requiring an ID for inperson voting while offering a means of voting that doesn't requiring paying for something, they have essentially left you options to vote that don't cost any money. Getting mail service is free (even in the boonies) so you should be able to vote without purchasing an ID. Can't you even get General Delivery if you don't have an "address"? IMHO, it no different than when the various govt agencies make various actions online/mail/fax only or choose to accept no checks or other issues. The IRS is a prime example. You have to file taxes by law but my understanding is that you can't go to an IRS office to turn it in. You have to do it online or via mail. The VA also does this (Stuff has to be mailed/faxed in... they are switching to paying benefits only via Direct deposit. If you don't use direct deposit, figure it out). They usually give you several options and the person needing the service has to pick an option and work with it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2012 6:35:37 GMT -5
Well, if you have received any kind of aid for just about anything over the years, you have id.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 9:22:48 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you can not charge a fee to vote... so if you are requiring paperwork which includes a government fee... well, i guess we'll just have to wait to see what the courts say....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 9:25:48 GMT -5
Aubrey... I thought some places were invalidating absentee voting ?? ... and if you can vote absentee without an ID, then why is it required for voting in person... ?? How does it actually solve or accomplish anything if they still can vote without showing ID (if that is what people believe will solve the 'problem' )
Everyone knows that there are like 10 cases of people actually being convicted of voting illegally in an election .. right ?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 26, 2012 17:27:17 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you can not charge a fee to vote... so if you are requiring paperwork which includes a government fee... well, i guess we'll just have to wait to see what the courts say.... I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, the laws that are being proposed have provisions for free/reduced cost ID's to those who can't afford the $5-$10 for a state issued ID. If you can't afford it, they give it to you for free, so I don't see how that will not hold up in court. And if you're poor or elderly, you're probably receiving some type of government assistance. And to do that you have to have (or have had) some type of identification.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2012 17:37:49 GMT -5
Except for the fact that you can not charge a fee to vote... so if you are requiring paperwork which includes a government fee... well, i guess we'll just have to wait to see what the courts say.... I'm no lawyer, but as I understand it, the laws that are being proposed have provisions for free/reduced cost ID's to those who can't afford the $5-$10 for a state issued ID. If you can't afford it, they give it to you for free, so I don't see how that will not hold up in court. And if you're poor or elderly, you're probably receiving some type of government assistance. And to do that you have to have (or have had) some type of identification. Some are doing that, though I believe not the majority. However, a lot of DL require different amount of ID, for example NY required 6 points, Ca was much easier. Again, I don't have a problem with it, if people were given time to save up and get the IDs and the paperwork needed to get them. This close to the election was a bad idea. www.htrnews.com/viewart/20120821/MAN0101/120821034/Van-Hollen-wants-Wisconsin-Supreme-Court-take-voter-ID-case?odyssey=nav|head
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 27, 2012 9:16:12 GMT -5
"Some are doing that, though I believe not the majority. However, a lot of DL require different amount of ID, for example NY required 6 points, Ca was much easier. Again, I don't have a problem with it, if people were given time to save up and get the IDs and the paperwork needed to get them. This close to the election was a bad idea."
Yes I agree, it's way too late to do anything this election. You need to give people at least a year's notice. Passing such legislation before this election is a bad idea and hurts an otherwise good cause.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2012 9:40:49 GMT -5
Really folks, just how many people do you think dont have legal IDs, I have no idea, but would think the number is small. And heavy on the LEGAl My guess would be elderly people who want to vote but have no other use for ID. I am in my 40s, legally drive, and have NEVER shown my DL for any reason other than being pulled over on the highway. I have never been asked to show it at the doctor's office, the DMV, or anywhere else for that matter. To get Medicaid and FS you typically have to show birth certificate, marriage/divorce papers, and tons of other crap. I have NEVER had to show my DL for this reason. In my area, people get IDs, if they can't drive, so that they can purchase alcohol and cigs. Once you pass about 50, no one will "card" you and ID isn't necessary in your life unless you drive. An ID in CA is $31. DMV requires you take your certified birth certificate to them and be finger printed in order to get the ID. Many folks here pay someone to drive them to the grocery store every month or two and I can see why they would want to avoid the line at DMV to get ID they can't afford, just to vote.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Aug 27, 2012 9:43:21 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2012 10:04:00 GMT -5
It is infringing on their rights if they have to pay in order to get it... The constitution says you can't charge a fee to vote... not sure why you aren't getting this ?? Also, almost all regs allow time for their implementation so that people can adjust and do what they need to in order to comply... the timeline here is also a problem, as many others have pointed out...
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