Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:36:07 GMT -5
I remember a girl who left her car running in the parking lot, and when she got back, it had been stolen. Yes, she was a victim in a crime - but she could have done a little bit more to deter that criminal. I would say she is about 20% at fault. [/u]
So Thyme, let's say the sentence for car theft is 5 years. Are you saying that the person who stole the car should serve four of those years and the person who left their car running in a parking lot should serve one?
Or do you have a different definition of "at fault" here?
I'm not just being contentious. This is important. If you truly believe a victim can be at fault for a crime - even partially at fault - there are implications to that statement which cannot be ignored. Every bit of responsibility you pin on the victim of a crime is a little bit of responsibility that is not being pinned on the person who COMMITTED THE CRIME.
And technically speaking, anyone involved in the commission of a crime should be punished.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:42:56 GMT -5
I was going to respond but I have a feeling I am starting to dig my own grave. I'll just say that we agree with each other even if I apparently used a very bad example. I didn't mean to single you out, I was just trying to avoid the "well, sorry but if a teenager is running around naked in front of men then she IS asking for it" that tends to come up in these discussions when those types of examples get made.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 15:42:58 GMT -5
...:::"The 22 year old is the adult and the authority figure. It doesn't matter if the 15 year old is dancing around stark naked in front of him, it's his responsibility to not sleep with her. You are only responsible for your own actions.":::...
Look, of COURSE the teacher gets in trouble for slamming a minor. But for cripes sake can't the 15 year old naked dancer get in trouble for dancing naked in front of the teacher?
I think this is what is getting lost in this debate. I am not saying that the teacher should not get in trouble. I am just saying that the girl dancing naked in front of her teacher should not be completely exonerated.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 15:44:34 GMT -5
...:::"Well if she is dancing butt naked in front of her teacher, yeah someone needs to put a stop to that and figure out why she's doing it in the first place.":::...
Phew, thank goodness! I see you clarified.
...:::"BUT she is not breaking the law doing this.":::...
She probably is breaking laws about indecent exposure, but I know what you were trying to say.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:47:09 GMT -5
Look, of COURSE the teacher gets in trouble for slamming a minor. But for cripes sake can't the 15 year old naked dancer get in trouble for dancing naked in front of the teacher?
That kind of statement, for example.
Yes, the 15 year old naked dancer needs to have her behavior addressed. No, the fact that the 15 year old was dancing naked does not in ANY way excuse the teacher deciding to have sex with her.
These two shouldn't have anything to do with each other. You need to address the problematic behavior of the student AND you need to punish the teacher. But unfortunately, by combining the statements you ARE effectively saying "punish the teacher and punish the student because they were both at fault."
THAT is the leap which should not be made. Inappropriate behavior on the part of the student does NOT translate into "partial responsibility." It just doesn't.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 15:48:14 GMT -5
I don't imagine the minor in a case such as you mention, Gowron, would be "completely exonerated". If the kid has any kind of parent at all, they'll wish someone had put them in jail. They might go to police headquarters and beg to be put in jail. In all likelihood, they'll be expelled from school if it's proven they did such a thing.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:48:24 GMT -5
I think this is what is getting lost in this debate. I am not saying that the teacher should not get in trouble. I am just saying that the girl dancing naked in front of her teacher should not be completely exonerated.
One more time nice and slow:
Address the inappropriate behavior? Yes.
Assign partial responsibility for the sexual relationship with the teacher due to the inappropriate behavior? NO. NO NO NO. The teacher was the only one responsible for preventing that.
You know what the implication is otherwise, WWBG? That children should be punished for sexually tempting child molesters. And if that sounds crazy to you, be aware that MANY child molesters do say EXACTLY THAT to justify their actions. You wouldn't believe how many child molesters claim that their four and five year old victims came on to them.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 15:54:46 GMT -5
...:::"Or do you have a different definition of "at fault" here?":::...
We all do, and they don't mesh, so we have to agree to disagree.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 15:55:53 GMT -5
No, she took a financial hit for her carelessness. She was punished. Unfortunately, she was punished the same as someone who locked their car and took it inside. I just have more sympathy for the person who took the necessary precautions, and less sympathy for the person who took an unnecessary risk and opened up a golden opportunity for someone out looking to cause trouble.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 15:56:20 GMT -5
...:::"Assign partial responsibility for the sexual relationship with the teacher due to the inappropriate behavior? NO. NO NO NO. The teacher was the only one responsible for preventing that.":::...
So we're back to exonerating the instigator the second the reactor reacts.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:59:03 GMT -5
So we're back to exonerating the instigator the second the reactor reacts.
I'm "exonerating the instigator" (if we absolutely have to use that terminology) of the CRIMINAL ACT, WWBG. That's not the same thing as saying that her behavior was appropriate. That's not the same as saying what she did was okay.
All I'm saying is this: if a criminal act occurs, you hold the criminal actor responsible regardless of what went on before. If there's behavior on the part of the non-criminal that needs to be addressed, fine - ADDRESS IT. But do not argue for holding them criminally accountable if that's not what you really mean.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:01:58 GMT -5
No, she took a financial hit for her carelessness. She was punished. Unfortunately, she was punished the same as someone who locked their car and took it inside. I just have more sympathy for the person who took the necessary precautions, and less sympathy for the person who took an unnecessary risk and opened up a golden opportunity for someone out looking to cause trouble.
But see, that doesn't actually work. Look at your logic. 20% at fault. I take that to mean "20% responsible for the outcome, which was a criminal act."
How can you possibly hold someone 100% criminally responsible for something that was only 80% their responsibility? You can't.
If you TRULY BELIEVE that a teenager who "flaunts" herself in front of her teacher (and again, I consider that a major strawman - speaking for myself, I can say that at 16 I was very naive and didn't have the slightest idea how much I could affect men, certainly I didn't have enough knowledge to abuse that power) is partially responsible for the ensuing affair, then you HAVE to believe that they should be punished along with the teacher.
And I believe that is what WWBG is advocating - punishments for both parties in a teacher-student affair situation, as long as the student was being sufficiently tempting.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:03:29 GMT -5
The problem I have with "a victim is a victim" is that I don't know what to tell my daughter. Good sense and good decisions will take away at least some of the opportunity to have a crime committed against her. Not all, but some. I don't cover my clothes in $100 bills and walk through the bad part of town. Why? Because I'm pretty sure I will get beaten up. So, I agree that nobody should ever touch a girl without her permission, and the teacher should always, always, always back away and stop the situation. And I will tell my son that if he has even seemingly consensual sex with a drunk girl - he is asking for trouble, and if he ever has sex with a passed out girl, no matter how she was dressed - I will let him hang for it (etc.) But I will not in any way, shape or form tell my daughter that someone else's crime spree does not absolve her from her bad decisions.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:04:33 GMT -5
...:::"I'm "exonerating the instigator" (if we absolutely have to use that terminology) of the CRIMINAL ACT, WWBG. That's not the same thing as saying that her behavior was appropriate. That's not the same as saying what she did was okay.":::...
Kind of like how its not OK to charge CC payers more, but you can give cash payers a discount? They are exactly the same while being 100% different.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:06:50 GMT -5
The problem I have with "a victim is a victim" is that I don't know what to tell my daughter.
Join the club, I struggle with this almost daily and mine's not even born yet.
My plan at the moment is to teach my kids general safety tips AS general safety tips. Look after your drink at parties? That's a good GENERAL safety tip. That is NOT meant as a "this will help you not get raped" tip. It's something my kids need to hear because GHB is a reality in this world. I'm not going to NOT tell them about that.
But I'm also not going to put it as "this is something you can do to lower your chances of getting raped at a party." That kind of language implies that if they DON'T do it and get raped at a party, it was partially their fault and that's what I'm going to try to avoid.
No one's saying it's an easy distinction. Currently the world does not make that distinction at all. But that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be made.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:07:25 GMT -5
So, the criminal is 100% responsible, and nobody should use any common sense - ever? Why lock our doors? It wouldn't be our fault if someone broke in and stole my TV.
This isn't my argument, but you pushing them together on this post kind of twists my words. That said - if my 16 year old daughter slept with her teacher, and I found out that she had inititated flirting with him - I would go after him with the full brunt of the law AND I would be extremely agressive with my daughter and her choices. There is nothing that says that these are mutually exclusive.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:09:12 GMT -5
Kind of like how its not OK to charge CC payers more, but you can give cash payers a discount? They are exactly the same while being 100% different.
Huh?
I don't understand this example at all but I am ONLY talking about crimes right now. Trying to tie what I think on this subject into other areas where personal responsibility rules the day is simply not representative of my thoughts.
I've said already - I'll say it again - being the victim of a crime is a bigtime exception to the personal responsibility mandate by which I otherwise live my life. I don't care what you were doing or how you were acting or what you were drinking or how you were dressed, you don't ask to be assaulted. Being sexually assaulted is not a "natural consequence" of certain behaviors that you are responsible for preventing.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:11:13 GMT -5
...:::"And I believe that is what WWBG is advocating - punishments for both parties in a teacher-student affair situation, as long as the student was being sufficiently tempting.":::...
With all the words that have been stuffed in my mouth, its a wonder I had room for Chipotle.
No, I did NOT say that "if the student was sufficiently tempting..." Nice though. What I said was intent. Intent, intent INTENT. I know you got that since you called it out as being a strawman. Neither of us have sufficient statistics to claim either way, though again I am saying such cases are in the minority.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:13:11 GMT -5
ROFL!
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2012 16:15:28 GMT -5
...:::"Because if the REACTOR is doing something ILLEGAL, it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT THE "INSTIGATOR" IS DOING. I can tell I'm going to have to excuse myself from this discussion quite soon...":::... Yeah, because we will never agree that the reactor is the one who deserves the blame. FWIW, YOU brought the "r" word in, not me. The "r" word was brought in because it is the definition of what you were describing. A teacher having sex with a 15 year old student is rape. You were describing rape, no matter what the 15 year old was doing or wanted.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:15:57 GMT -5
...:::"Huh? ":::...
Makes about as much sense as what you are trying to convince me of.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:16:07 GMT -5
This isn't my argument, but you pushing them together on this post kind of twists my words. That said - if my 16 year old daughter slept with her teacher, and I found out that she had inititated flirting with him - I would go after him with the full brunt of the law AND I would be extremely agressive with my daughter and her choices. There is nothing that says that these are mutually exclusive.
I don't know what you mean by "extremely aggressive" but if by that you mean you'd have a talk with her about the appropriate way to interact with adults, or put her into therapy to find out why she felt the need to get an older man's attention - I think those are reasonable actions. You want to find out WHY she was acting the way she was, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But yes, it can quickly segue into victim blaming. It can quickly go from "why did you feel like you needed to act this way" to "because you acted this way, the affair happened - the affair is all your fault - how do you think your teacher feels, because of you he lost his license to teach and he's going to jail." That kind of thing. You don't even have to do it consciously.
Honestly, I don't know how I would handle the situation if my teenage daughter was found to have been "flaunting herself" or however you want to put that. We WOULD need to address that behavior and find out what was behind it.
But my number one priority would be making sure that she knew what happened to her was not her fault. And the fallout that her teacher was suffering was also not her fault. Dealing with her behavior would be a secondary issue, because NOTHING she did caused the affair and making sure she knew that would be my main concern.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:17:50 GMT -5
No, I did NOT say that "if the student was sufficiently tempting..." Nice though. What I said was intent. Intent, intent INTENT. I know you got that since you called it out as being a strawman. Neither of us have sufficient statistics to claim either way, though again I am saying such cases are in the minority.
Huh, let's see...
Look, of COURSE the teacher gets in trouble for slamming a minor. But for cripes sake can't the 15 year old naked dancer get in trouble for dancing naked in front of the teacher?[/u]
You're NOT advocating that a sufficiently tempting student be punished? Gee, I wonder how I could have misconstrued THAT one.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:20:48 GMT -5
What if I leave the door wide open, and anyone walking up the street in my busy little neighborhood would know the house was unsecured. Also, I don't have a garage, so it is very easy to tell that there are no cars there. By your logic, I should do that all day every day, and then cry "boo hoo" when my television is stolen.
Leaving the car running in the parkign lot is a good example - because the guy who stole it might not have been out to steal a car, but hey, this one is just sitting here, running. Yes, what he did was still wrong - but I believe that we can pretty much count on there being at least one stupid asshole where ever we go, so expect it, and work to make that guy's life a little harder.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:21:50 GMT -5
There would be punishment - and likely counseling. But her actions are inappropriate. PERIOD.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:21:59 GMT -5
A lot of boys fall victim to sexual predators and as we've most recently seen played out for the world to see is the predator is usually a trusted male figure, i.e. a sports coach. Right now my husband is involved with coaching and we're always present at practices and games, but as we move forward, I will teach my boys what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior and/or attention from an adult and if they find themselves in an uncomfortable situation, they need to get themselves out of it as quickly as possible.
The interesting thing about this paragraph is that nowhere does it say, "I'll teach my boys how to not tempt predators - I'll teach them to dress like gentlemen and not act slutty." And that's the way it should be.
Funnily enough, it's pretty much always when we're talking about GIRLS that we get into discussions of how they can "lower their chances" of being sexually assaulted. And most of the time that list includes things like "don't dress like a slut." For boys, it's assumed that they're either not going to do those things or they wouldn't have the same effect if they did.
Frankly, the misogyny of rape culture is a whole different discussion. But I did want to note that.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:22:44 GMT -5
Firebird - When you were having the affair with this older guy who was committed to another woman - do you think what you were doing was wrong?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:27:30 GMT -5
Yes, of course there are preventative measures we can take.. but using your example, breaking in someone's home and taking something is such a deliberate premeditated act... You don't just all of the sudden walk up to someone's door, try to open it, find that it's unlocked, then help yourself to whatever they want and then think "Hey... that's what they get for not locking their door"...
Preventative measures are all well and good but you know what the ultimate preventative measure is? A criminal deciding NOT to commit a crime.
In other words, yes, be smart and safe to the best of your ability. But whether you are doing that or not, if a criminal decides to commit a crime against you it no longer matters how "smart" you were being. Maybe you were being VERY smart and the crime still happened.
And by the way, with sex crimes, people will ALWAYS be able to find something you did wrong. ALWAYS. You can take that to the bank. There will always, always, always be something a rape victim COULD have done differently, ought NOT to have done, etc. There's always something s/he could have done to prevent being raped in the eyes of the world. That is always where our focus lies in the wake of a sex crime - what the victim did wrong.
My position is that our focus SHOULD lie on what the CRIMINAL did wrong. Kind of like it does at murder trials.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:27:33 GMT -5
Most of boys being molested happens when they are more tween-aged. I would give my girl and boy the same advice when they are 10 - 14. We have already discussed coaches with them, and we keep a tab on that. However, once they get sort of beyond that age, women become the victims of rape, not molestation. And, yes, my son could be manipulated by an older person of power into a sexual relationship, and same deal - don't do that! But, I'm more worried about the college/party years. That is when both girls and boys make bad decisions - and the most likely thing that would happen is that a girl (my daughter or another girl) gets drunk and decides to have sex with a boy (another boy or my son.) And later decides that isn't exactly what she wanted to happen. That situation turns out badly for everyone. And we never know what really happened.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:29:45 GMT -5
Firebird - When you were having the affair with this older guy who was committed to another woman - do you think what you were doing was wrong?
Are you asking whether I thought so then, or whether I think so now?
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