Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:42:16 GMT -5
Suddenly I'm feeling very grateful for the "ignore" button.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:42:22 GMT -5
I'm a little interested in whether WWBG's opinion changes if it's a situation of male student and female teacher. What's the male equivalent of a buxom teenage girl? i tried posing a similar question, and was told it wasn't pg-13....so you can't ask that question either....
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 13:42:36 GMT -5
I'm a little interested in whether WWBG's opinion changes if it's a situation of male student and female teacher. What's the male equivalent of a buxom teenage girl? stud muffin. It's jsut as illegal for a 25 year old woman to screw a 15 year old boy.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 13:43:25 GMT -5
Yeah, but either way, it's always the woman's fault.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:43:52 GMT -5
Suddenly I'm feeling very grateful for the "ignore" button. me too!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:45:34 GMT -5
UGH! I give up!! I'll see you two when you get back. I've got a strong feeling there won't be a "when you get back" this time, beerwench. They keep this up at their peril. mmhmm, Administrator
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 13:45:46 GMT -5
I've been told by more than one sex offender that their victim was "asking for it" and acting seductively. Even when the victim was 6.Ugh. people like that need to be htrown in the general population with "child molester" tattooed on their foreheads. Let GP take care of them and save tax payers some money. What they can do is probably way better than any punishment we can think up.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 13:45:54 GMT -5
Message deleted by moonbeam.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Aug 6, 2012 13:47:36 GMT -5
Sometimes I think Firebird is exaggerating the situation. Most Instigators enjoy doing that. you should know, MU. Cut it out, and i do mean now. and take your little 'henchman' with you.. or I'll take both of you out for good. ~moon/ mod
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:48:26 GMT -5
You might want to take a criminal law class too because screwing a minor will land you in jail and brand you as a sex offender EVEN IF S/HE IS THE "INSTIGATOR." I've been told by more than one sex offender that their victim was "asking for it" and acting seductively. Even when the victim was 6. It's just an excuse by a pathetic weasel to try to blame someone else for their power play. A child is incapable of making good decisions in these instances. The law, therefore, protects them from their decisions until they are of age. As I see it, if an adult can't control him/herself in a sexually charged situation with a minor, they're deserving of whatever punishment the courts decide to mete out. They're the ones who should be making the decisions and protecting the child.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 13:48:55 GMT -5
I've been told by more than one sex offender that their victim was "asking for it" and acting seductively. Even when the victim was 6.Ugh. people like that need to be htrown in the general population with "child molester" tattooed on their foreheads. Let GP take care of them and save tax payers some money. What they can do is probably way better than any punishment we can think up. That's always boggled my mind. If it's well know that a group of criminals thinks it's a bad idea and don't treat the perpretrators kindly - how on earth could someone outside think it's ok? (Granted, I think that is towards those with much younger victims than highschoo, but still!)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:49:53 GMT -5
I warned you two what was coming, MU and Taxman. This garbage has gone on long enough. I think we've all had it, and I know moonbeam has. She's worked darned hard on these boards. She doesn't need the likes of you two making it all meaningless.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 13:50:15 GMT -5
They don't think they will get caught.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 13:51:35 GMT -5
"I knew she was 18 because she told me her last boyfriend was Asian, and that crap doesn't start until College."
- Dennis Duffy
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:52:45 GMT -5
I think people have trouble distinguishing between "non consensual" sex crimes (e.g. rape with force) and "consensual" sex crimes (e.g. statutory rape). One SEEMS much worse than the other. And yes, there are gray areas. If two seventeen year olds are dating and having sex, and one has a birthday, is it suddenly statutory rape if they go on having sex?
But consent is a funny thing. When the power dynamic between two people is completely unbalanced (teacher-student, boss-subordinate, parent-child, etc.), there's no such thing as consent until the unbalanced power relationship is gone. There CAN'T be, because there is an implied element of coercion - if not in the sexual activity itself, then in the "this is our little secret" business that invariably follows.
Here's a clue: if you are an ethical person, you DO NOT and WILL NOT have a sexual relationship with someone over whom you have power, ESPECIALLY minors. No matter WHAT. If you are really in love with your student, or your subordinate, or your cute underage neighbor, you are going to WAIT until they are out from under your influence and power before pursuing them. End of discussion. That's the only ethical thing you can do.
Very simple litmus test: is it possible that you could be arrested, fired, sued, or all of the above by sleeping with this person? If the answer is yes, then the ethical person doesn't do it no matter WHAT the "instigator" is doing to encourage it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:53:39 GMT -5
mmhmm and moonbeam - thank you very much.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 13:53:50 GMT -5
...:::"Because if the REACTOR is doing something ILLEGAL, it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER WHAT THE "INSTIGATOR" IS DOING. I can tell I'm going to have to excuse myself from this discussion quite soon...":::...
Yeah, because we will never agree that the reactor is not the only one who deserves the blame. FWIW, YOU brought the "r" word in, not me. (edited to correct misworded syntax)
...:::" It starts with a seemingly innocent proposition - "let's help women learn to protect themselves so they're less likely to be raped." And it ends with the idea that if you were victimized, then you must have done something to allow it, or help it along, or enable it. You didn't do enough to protect yourself. You probably asked for it. At the very least, you were stupid to make X choice and if you hadn't been stupid like that, it wouldn't have happened.":::...
By that same logic, any man who says "hello" (which is innocent enough) is going to stalk you, learn your schedule, find out where you live, break in and steal your money, and put you in cement shoes.
...:::"WWBG, there are people out there who truly believe that every rape victim had it coming in some way or another. I don't know if you're one of those people or not. But you are definitely talking like one - make no mistake about that.":::...
Apparently there are people out there who also believe that every victim (I am PURPOSELY omitting the "r" word) is 100% innocent no matter what the circumstances were.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 13:55:18 GMT -5
Are you saying there are no circumstances in which the victim IS 100% innocent?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 13:57:13 GMT -5
...:::" I offered my own story only as a counter-example to the posters who kept claiming that the student is the one who is "asking for it" and therefore deserves what happened.":::...
The problem is, you hijack many personal responsibility discussions with this same story. I am very sorry you had to deal with the experience and I am not diminishing your pain. My problem is that when a person brings in a trump card/big gun like the "r" word, it really inhibits the ability to brooch any topic seriously.
My original interjection was in a very specific case where there was an instigator with clear intent. I have consistently said that not every 15 year old girl is looking to take advantage of a man.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 13:58:10 GMT -5
I don't think WWBG said that.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 13:59:35 GMT -5
...:::"I'm a little interested in whether WWBG's opinion changes if it's a situation of male student and female teacher.":::...
Not one bit. If some 16 year old waxed abercrombie model of a guy oils up his 12 pack abs and waits for his teacher to spill a drink so he can rip his t-shirt off to help clean it up, then he propositions her, he is just as guilty as thong girl.
Its all about intent.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 13:59:40 GMT -5
Yeah, because we will never agree that the reactor is the one who deserves the blame. FWIW, YOU brought the "r" word in, not me.
The "r" word? You're kidding, right? This entire thread is about statutory rape. I understand you don't like my position on sex crimes but for heaven's sake, let's call them what they are.
By that same logic, any man who says "hello" (which is innocent enough) is going to stalk you, learn your schedule, find out where you live, break in and steal your money, and put you in cement shoes.
That doesn't even REMOTELY follow from what I said.
Apparently there are people out there who also believe that every victim (I am PURPOSELY omitting the "r" word) is 100% innocent no matter what the circumstances were.
No matter what the victim does, they are NEVER responsible for being victimized. Yes, I'll defend that statement right to the ground (note: my statement and yours are not the same).
When you victimize someone, you take away their power. End of story. Everything in the world a person can do to "protect" themselves can become meaningless in a second once a rapist decides to rape.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 13:59:45 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting absolute innocence on the part of an older victim of sexual abuse who is still a minor, Gowron. In many cases, they're not completely innocent. They are, however, too young to truly understand the ramifications of their actions. This is due to an immature brain. It's not something they can really help. You can't sprinkle Grow Fast Plant Food on your brain, I'm afraid. The law protects these kids for that reason, and that's as it should be. Now, if it was my kid and they were proven to have instigated a situation like this, they'd probably wish they HAD been jailed. Nevertheless, the responsibility lies fully with the adult who is in a position of authority.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 14:00:34 GMT -5
I don't think WWBG said that. That's why I was asking.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:00:52 GMT -5
...:::" I offered my own story only as a counter-example to the posters who kept claiming that the student is the one who is "asking for it" and therefore deserves what happened.":::... The problem is, you hijack many personal responsibility discussions with this same story. I am very sorry you had to deal with the experience and I am not diminishing your pain. My problem is that when a person brings in a trump card/big gun like the "r" word, it really inhibits the ability to brooch any topic seriously. My original interjection was in a very specific case where there was an instigator with clear intent. I have consistently said that not every 15 year old girl is looking to take advantage of a man. exactly, just b/c firebird's side of her story goes against what others might have brought up, doesn't mean it's automatically correct.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 14:01:58 GMT -5
...:::"You might want to take a criminal law class too because screwing a minor will land you in jail and brand you as a sex offender EVEN IF S/HE IS THE "INSTIGATOR."":::...
I have NOT ONCE said that sexual conduct with a minor was legal. NOT ONCE.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:03:57 GMT -5
My original interjection was in a very specific case where there was an instigator with clear intent. I have consistently said that not every 15 year old girl is looking to take advantage of a man.
Which case are you talking about, exactly? As far as I can tell, this discussion is about teachers and students having sexual relationships.
As for me "hijacking" discussions about personal responsibility - only when they involve victim blaming. In other areas, I am every bit the proponent of personal responsibility you are - if you don't know that, you haven't been reading probably 85-90% of my posts on this board all that carefully.
Yes, absolutely, we are responsible for our own choices in life. We are in control of many things that happen to us.
But not crimes. We are not in control of whether or not we become crime victims. If we do become crime victims, anything we may or may not have done to "bring it on ourselves" is completely and totally irrelevant.
The difference between sex crimes and other crimes is that this point is usually fairly obvious when you're talking about a mugging victim, or a murder victim, or a carjack victim. So yes - I am more vocal when we're talking about rape. Because for many, many reasons, PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS POINT when it comes to rape.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:05:31 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting absolute innocence on the part of an older victim of sexual abuse who is still a minor, Gowron. In many cases, they're not completely innocent. They are, however, too young to truly understand the ramifications of their actions. This is due to an immature brain. It's not something they can really help. You can't sprinkle Grow Fast Plant Food on your brain, I'm afraid. The law protects these kids for that reason, and that's as it should be. Now, if it was my kid and they were proven to have instigated a situation like this, they'd probably wish they HAD been jailed. Nevertheless, the responsibility lies fully with the adult who is in a position of authority. so what age does their brain truly understand the ramifications?? did you post earlier that the brain isn't fully developed until the mid 20's?? I have hard time beleiving any 15 year is ignorant of the ramifications of sleeping with a teacher? don't you?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:06:23 GMT -5
The problem is, you hijack many personal responsibility discussions with this same story.
Also, this is the first time I've shared the details of my story on this board, at least since the switch from MSN. I'm certain of that. If you knew about it before now, it must have come up in a PM. So no, I do not hijack many discussions with "this same story."
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 14:06:53 GMT -5
The whole not-fully-developed brain is interesting. I believe it's only recently that it's been decided that it's not fully developed to the mid 20s. When I was in middle school we got a new teacher fresh out of college at 21 or 22. So technically his brain wasn't fully developed either. (Which is probably evident by the fact that the advanced group I was in ran over him so easy and got to do whatever we wanted.) So we have people without a fully developed brain in position of power over people who also don't have fully developed brains. Aye, thinking it through makes me wonder why we don't hear more often of the young teachers getting hauled off to jail.
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