8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:31:42 GMT -5
...:::"You're NOT advocating that a sufficiently tempting student be punished? Gee, I wonder how I could have misconstrued THAT one.":::...
I read your "sufficiently tempting" as passive, not active. If she is active, of course she is to blame for her share.
...:::"But yes, it can quickly segue into victim blaming. It can quickly go from "why did you feel like you needed to act this way" to "because you acted this way, the affair happened - the affair is all your fault - how do you think your teacher feels, because of you he lost his license to teach and he's going to jail." That kind of thing. You don't even have to do it consciously.":::...
I think your leap from "because you acted this way the affair happened" to "the affair is all your fault" is ludicrous. Logically, of COURSE her actions had a bearing on the situation happening. Logically, of COURSE a different set of actions could (not necessarily would, but could) have resulted in a different outcome. I think that going to "its all your fault" when its not, is a travesty. I'm certainly not advocating that.
...:::"... because NOTHING she did caused the affair and making sure she knew that would be my main concern.":::...
Great, so the world will have another child who believes that he/she can do no wrong, and that any misfortune which befalls him/her is the fault of someone else.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:32:33 GMT -5
And I SHOULD be able to walk in whatever neighborhood I want without worrying about my personal safety - but I know that isn't reality.
That said - I think once you hit some point in middle age, you aren't going to be raped because you are hot or asking for it, or whatever - you are going to be raped because the guy found an opportunity to show some power. Some of those serial killers rape and kill 65 year old women - and it isn't because they have a tight ass and have been working out - it is because they were alone, and vulnerable. So, we are back to basic safety. Sure, wear your workout clothes, but don't walk down the alley behind the grocery store, where crimes are known to happen.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:33:15 GMT -5
What you thought then.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:35:32 GMT -5
That is when both girls and boys make bad decisions - and the most likely thing that would happen is that a girl (my daughter or another girl) gets drunk and decides to have sex with a boy (another boy or my son.) And later decides that isn't exactly what she wanted to happen.
Let's not conflate this scenario with rape, please. College rape victims are constantly accused of "changing their minds after the fact."
Being raped and regretting that you had sex with someone are not the same thing. Which I don't think you're saying, but a lot of times other people do.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:36:14 GMT -5
...:::"The ones who commit the crimes, already have the criminal mindset/intent.":::...
So they are already out there, that is a given. We cannot guarantee our safety by simply wishing they would disappear. Now that we know they are out there, and always will be out there, the smartest thing we can do is reduce the likelihood that they will pick on us.
...:::"Are you asking whether I thought so then, or whether I think so now?":::...
Maybe the message I should teach my kid is actually "live it up while you are under 18, because you will never have that kind of freedom again".
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 16:36:45 GMT -5
Well - this is the scenario that I would warn my daughter and son against.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:41:01 GMT -5
...:::"Let's not conflate this scenario with rape, please.":::...
Yeah, only she gets to use the trump card.
...:::"College rape victims are constantly accused of "changing their minds after the fact."":::...
I remember my alma mater addressed this possibility precisely because it is a possibility. Something about gaining specific consent. I am not saying this happens in the majority of cases; I am simply saying it is a possibility.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:41:18 GMT -5
At the time, I thought I was the worst person in existence. You have to understand, I thought I was in love. So when he started showing me interest, it was deeply conflicting. I knew it was wrong, I knew I should stay away, I knew that he was committed to somebody else. But I had that whole starry-eyed 16 year old "but I'm in love, and he loves me back and I'll never love anyone else the way I love him" thing going on at the same time. That was my motive. I never saw it as my justification. After it was over, I hated myself and I hated my life and I thought I deserved to die (really not exaggerating here). I started cutting myself out of guilt. I engaged in very self-destructive behavior, trying to "pay" for what I'd done. I considered suicide. In my mind, I had betrayed a person who had only been good to me. I sold out my own mentor, my idol. Yeah, damn skippy I thought it was wrong. And I thought I was the only one at fault. I was the whore who had created this mess. Sure, he cheated on her but in my mind, if I hadn't loved him the way I did, he never would have had cause to betray her.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:43:19 GMT -5
...:::"Let's not conflate this scenario with rape, please.":::...
Yeah, only she gets to use the trump card.Oh yeah, I'm using the trump card Either that, or I'm just trying to be clear on what is and what is not sexual assault. I'm trying to make a distinction between something that actually is sexual assault and something that is not sexual assault, because a lot of people get the two mixed up. It's either one or the other.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2012 16:44:14 GMT -5
A lot of boys fall victim to sexual predators and as we've most recently seen played out for the world to see is the predator is usually a trusted male figure, i.e. a sports coach. Right now my husband is involved with coaching and we're always present at practices and games, but as we move forward, I will teach my boys what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior and/or attention from an adult and if they find themselves in an uncomfortable situation, they need to get themselves out of it as quickly as possible.The interesting thing about this paragraph is that nowhere does it say, "I'll teach my boys how to not tempt predators - I'll teach them to dress like gentlemen and not act slutty." And that's the way it should be. Funnily enough, it's pretty much always when we're talking about GIRLS that we get into discussions of how they can "lower their chances" of being sexually assaulted. And most of the time that list includes things like "don't dress like a slut." For boys, it's assumed that they're either not going to do those things or they wouldn't have the same effect if they did. Frankly, the misogyny of rape culture is a whole different discussion. But I did want to note that. My husband and I talked about that during the coverage of the Sandusky disaster. Not once was the boys' dating background or pictures of the boys' tattoos or inappropriate FaceBook postings brought up by the media. As it should be. It's not uncommon to have coverage of abuse of female victims where there is talk of them dating older boys (implying they are experienced or loose), showing photos which blur their face but show flashy clothes/tattoos (implying they dress like a slut) or reprinting inappropriate FB posts (implying they are party girls). And not to put an even sadder spin on it, but the boys from the Sandusky tragedy come from homes where is it quite possible they had been victims of abuse at a young age, which does sometimes mean they act inappropriately in relationships, so it is quite possible they appeared to be "asking for it". When I was volunteering with foster kids in Phoenix, it was not uncommon for the kids - both boys and girls - to have been exposed to sexual situations at a very young age, which meant that they behaved in an inappropriate manner towards adults. Nothing makes you want to cry like having a 7 year old rub your thigh suggestively to earn your favor. So I guess in WWBG's language, these boys who were victims of Sandusky were instigators and Sandusky was just a reactor. We should probably start talking about what punishment would be appropriate for those instigators. See how sick that all sounds? Be honest with yourself, is it because you can't imagine a boy "tempting" Sandusky? Although this is no different than the scenario WWBG described with the 15 year old female temptress, that didn't provoke the same reaction in you because it's the stuff of male fantasy... so it's been repeated in countless stories, movies, etc. which makes it seem acceptable. It's not acceptable and that 15 year old is just as much a rape victim as were those boys Sandusky took into the shower. We need to start recognizing that.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:44:34 GMT -5
Maybe the message I should teach my kid is actually "live it up while you are under 18, because you will never have that kind of freedom again". Oh yeah, my description of what I went through in #325 was really me living the high life. I sure do miss those days of freedom!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 16:46:35 GMT -5
But if the age of consent is 16, and the girl is 17 - is it still illegal, or is it just against school policy? I'm actually confused here. I was told that the age of consent was 18, but they never prosecuted 2 teenagers, as long as they were within 2 years of each other. Probably just against policy (meaning you would be fired). You could likely skate on the legal issue if your student was over the age of consent ( I don't think grad students who teach college courses are prosecuted for having relationships with their overage students, for example) but that doesn't mean it's an ethical thing to do. Like I said, if you fall in love with someone over whom you have a power, the only ethical thing to do (assuming they feel the same way) is to get out of that power-imbalanced relationship before proceeding. Teacher-student, doctor-patient, boss-subordinate, coach-player, anything like that. People fall in love. It happens. But there's no rule that you MUST have a relationship the second you fall for someone and they fall for you back. There are times when the right thing to do is wait. I do in fact know one teacher who married a student and wasn't prosecuted or anything. They waited until she was 18 and out of high school before pursuing their relationship. They've been happily married for almost a decade. I don't see anything wrong with that. Sometimes it really is that simple. You can't be prosecuted, except if their is other legal issues, such as blackmail for sex (aka sleep with me or I fail you) but at least at my school you will be dropped from the program.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 16:48:49 GMT -5
Am I partly responsble if I get assaulted because some asshole doesn't have the self restraint to leave me alone due to the fact that I'm wearing form fitting clothes?
Believe me, if you were ever to be assaulted, there would be no shortage of people answering "yes" to that question.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 16:50:38 GMT -5
Message deleted by WeWillBackGowron. - Very poor choice of words.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 16:51:40 GMT -5
...:::"And I believe that is what WWBG is advocating - punishments for both parties in a teacher-student affair situation, as long as the student was being sufficiently tempting.":::... With all the words that have been stuffed in my mouth, its a wonder I had room for Chipotle. No, I did NOT say that "if the student was sufficiently tempting..." Nice though. What I said was intent. Intent, intent INTENT. I know you got that since you called it out as being a strawman. Neither of us have sufficient statistics to claim either way, though again I am saying such cases are in the minority. Even when the girls at my high school were flirting with the young teacher, he had the common sense and common decency to not take advantage of his power as a teacher and sleep with them. He knew his responsibility as an authority figure was not abdicated by the actions of another. Wish more people, including people on this board, could figure out that simple concept.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2012 16:59:22 GMT -5
WWBG, I think you're making some of these statements to be inflammatory, but also because you don't understand why children do some of the things that they do.
Children often don't understand the consequences of sexual acts. They may have heard - and can repeat back - that it's bad to sleep with a teacher, but they really don't fully understand why. That's why we have laws to protect them.
Especially children who have been abused or neglected; they are often simply seeking attention from an adult in any way they can get it. One of the cases I had was a 5 year old son of a meth addict hooker. He had been in foster care for 3+ of his 5 years and before that spent much of his life on the street or moving from drug house to drug house watching his mom turn tricks for cash or drugs. Let's just say he didn't always understand appropriate behaviour. He also was in great need of having an adult who loved and understood him so was seeking that out by experimenting with different behaviours.
If he had lived near Penn State, it's very plausible this boy would have been involved with the Second Mile charity. This boy was also very attractive, his parents had been attractive prior to their drug decline and there is a good chance that when he grew to be 12 - 15, he would be gorgeous.
Do you not understand that if Jerry Sandusky took this kid on a car ride, it's probable that this kid would not have flinched if Sandusky put a hand on his knee? This boy may even have quickly realized what Sandusky wanted and be willing to trade that for some adult affection. He might actively flirt and encourage further sexual behaviour simply to get the attention he never got.
Do you really think that this boy is an instigator and deserves to be raped in the shower? Do we really give Sandusky a pass and call him a reactor rather than a rapist?
Really?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 17:01:36 GMT -5
...:::"WWBG.. I hope that half the shit you post is just to create conflict and controversy and isn't really how you feel about certain things...":::...
Haha, only half? How could I possibly condemn the 15 year old girl instigator without also condemning the 15 year old boy instigator?
All I have said is that if both parties actively brought about the situation, then both parties have culpability. I don't think thats a big stretch.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 6, 2012 17:03:03 GMT -5
I guess if that's how you really feel than all I can conclude is that I'm glad there are laws to protect children.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 6, 2012 17:19:56 GMT -5
Doesn't this entire debate hinge on the mutable nature of 'deserve'?
Does a heroin user who uses an unsterilized needle once and only once in his life deserve to contract AIDS?
Yes, in the sense that there is a known risk with the activity. In the same way, we know that provocative dress inflames human passions by design, and we know that some men act on these passions, regardless of the victim's intent.
No, in the sense that getting AIDS from a single injection isn't a probable outcome, and in fact the vast majority of heroin users will never contract AIDS regardless of how diligent they are in sterilizing needles. In the same way, being sexually assaulted is not a foreseeable consequence in the minds of most of the youth who dress provocatively.
It's a spectrum of risks and consequences. Personally, I feel the risks and consequences are such that teachers should never, under any circumstances, fraternize with their students. I would consider it both professional as well as moral misconduct on the part of the teacher, as well as a subversion of the proper dynamic of authority that exists between educator and pupil.
As for whether a victim 'deserves' to be victimized or not, once they've been victimized, it really doesn't matter, does it?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2012 11:55:04 GMT -5
I'm posting in a locked thread simply to let you know the thread has been reinstated. It will remain locked for the time being, but may be opened for posting at a later time.
mmhmm, Administrator
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