8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 14:07:54 GMT -5
...:::"Very simple litmus test: is it possible that you could be arrested, fired, sued, or all of the above by sleeping with this person? If the answer is yes, then the ethical person doesn't do it no matter WHAT the "instigator" is doing to encourage it.":::...
The problem with that litmus test is that the answer is always "yes, I could be arrested". Hell, if DW got mad enough at me, she could call the cops and spin a yarn, and I'd get taken away from my own house. I am not saying she would EVER do that, but she "could".
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:08:16 GMT -5
The whole not-fully-developed brain is interesting. I believe it's only recently that it's been decided that it's not fully developed to the mid 20s. When I was in middle school we got a new teacher fresh out of college at 21 or 22. So technically his brain wasn't fully developed either. (Which is probably evident by the fact that the advanced group I was in ran over him so easy and got to do whatever we wanted.) So we have people without a fully developed brain in position of power over people who also don't have fully developed brains. Aye, thinking it through makes me wonder why we don't hear more often of the young teachers getting hauled off to jail. don't all brains develop differently?? couldn't a 16 y/o's brain actually have developed faster than the 22 y/o's....so then who's the victim???
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:08:19 GMT -5
...:::"You might want to take a criminal law class too because screwing a minor will land you in jail and brand you as a sex offender EVEN IF S/HE IS THE "INSTIGATOR."":::... I have NOT ONCE said that sexual conduct with a minor was legal. NOT ONCE. True, you never did say it was legal, but you did imply that the poor sap is helpless when the wily temptress wiggled her tight butt and showed her ample busom.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:08:50 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting absolute innocence on the part of an older victim of sexual abuse who is still a minor, Gowron. In many cases, they're not completely innocent. They are, however, too young to truly understand the ramifications of their actions. This is due to an immature brain. It's not something they can really help. You can't sprinkle Grow Fast Plant Food on your brain, I'm afraid. The law protects these kids for that reason, and that's as it should be. Now, if it was my kid and they were proven to have instigated a situation like this, they'd probably wish they HAD been jailed. Nevertheless, the responsibility lies fully with the adult who is in a position of authority. so what age does their brain truly understand the ramifications?? did you post earlier that the brain isn't fully developed until the mid 20's?? I have hard time beleiving any 15 year is ignorant of the ramifications of sleeping with a teacher? don't you? Do you know any 15 year olds?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 14:09:20 GMT -5
Yes, Taxman, the frontal lobes of the brain are not fully developed until the mid-twenties. This is particularly true of the areas processing risk-taking behaviors and evaluation of consequences. So, no. I don't have any trouble realizing a 15-year-old is ignorant of the consequences that may be involved with sleeping with a teacher.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:11:57 GMT -5
The problem with that litmus test is that the answer is always "yes, I could be arrested". Hell, if DW got mad enough at me, she could call the cops and spin a yarn, and I'd get taken away from my own house. I am not saying she would EVER do that, but she "could". Fine then, "could I be fired, arrested or sued by having sex with this person if they HONESTLY reported what happened?" We could all get in all kinds of trouble if people randomly started spewing stories about us. Nice strawman there.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 14:12:24 GMT -5
It seems like the stories only make national news if they involve particularly scandalous facts, or young, attractive teachers.
I personally know 2 teachers who have been fired for sleeping with students. In this state, there are probably another half-dozen coaches, band directors, etc. who are fired each year for doing the same. And those are just the ones who have been caught AND who have made the news. Considering there have to be a substantial number of unreported cases, I'd say the incidence is pretty high.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:12:55 GMT -5
so what age does their brain truly understand the ramifications?? did you post earlier that the brain isn't fully developed until the mid 20's?? I have hard time beleiving any 15 year is ignorant of the ramifications of sleeping with a teacher? don't you? Do you know any 15 year olds? Yes...and all of them know that sleeping with their teachers is a bad idea
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 14:13:29 GMT -5
The whole not-fully-developed brain is interesting. I believe it's only recently that it's been decided that it's not fully developed to the mid 20s. When I was in middle school we got a new teacher fresh out of college at 21 or 22. So technically his brain wasn't fully developed either. (Which is probably evident by the fact that the advanced group I was in ran over him so easy and got to do whatever we wanted.) So we have people without a fully developed brain in position of power over people who also don't have fully developed brains. Aye, thinking it through makes me wonder why we don't hear more often of the young teachers getting hauled off to jail. don't all brains develop differently?? couldn't a 16 y/o's brain actually have developed faster than the 22 y/o's....so then who's the victim??? Yes, but those that do would be an outlier. And I don't know if even an outlier 16 year old would be more developed than a normal 22 year old. And I say that as someone who was squicked out at 16 if someone out of high school hit on me. If I wasn't so keen on avoiding those situations all together, I can't say for certain that a good wordsmith wouldn't have had me falling for things that at 22 years of age I would just laugh at.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:13:39 GMT -5
It seems like the stories only make national news if they involve particularly scandalous facts, or young, attractive teachers. I personally know 2 teachers who have been fired for sleeping with students. In this state, there are probably another half-dozen coaches, band directors, etc. who are fired each year for doing the same. And those are just the ones who have been caught AND who have made the news. Considering there have to be a substantial number of unreported cases, I'd say the incidence is pretty high. I've seen a few, both male and female teachers.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 14:14:01 GMT -5
The whole not-fully-developed brain is interesting. I believe it's only recently that it's been decided that it's not fully developed to the mid 20s. When I was in middle school we got a new teacher fresh out of college at 21 or 22. So technically his brain wasn't fully developed either. (Which is probably evident by the fact that the advanced group I was in ran over him so easy and got to do whatever we wanted.) So we have people without a fully developed brain in position of power over people who also don't have fully developed brains. Aye, thinking it through makes me wonder why we don't hear more often of the young teachers getting hauled off to jail. People are still individuals and will handle things differently. Not all the reasons people avoid this behavior involve evaluation of consequences, per se.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:14:00 GMT -5
Do you know any 15 year olds? Yes...and all of them know that sleeping with their teachers is a bad idea You asked them that?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 14:14:16 GMT -5
...:::"Very simple litmus test: is it possible that you could be arrested, fired, sued, or all of the above by sleeping with this person? If the answer is yes, then the ethical person doesn't do it no matter WHAT the "instigator" is doing to encourage it.":::... The problem with that litmus test is that the answer is always "yes, I could be arrested". Hell, if DW got mad enough at me, she could call the cops and spin a yarn, and I'd get taken away from my own house. I am not saying she would EVER do that, but she "could". Well using that logic, right now my boss could call the cops and tell them I was stealing from the supply closet (false). Does that mean I shouldn't come to work?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:15:15 GMT -5
...:::"Very simple litmus test: is it possible that you could be arrested, fired, sued, or all of the above by sleeping with this person? If the answer is yes, then the ethical person doesn't do it no matter WHAT the "instigator" is doing to encourage it.":::... The problem with that litmus test is that the answer is always "yes, I could be arrested". Hell, if DW got mad enough at me, she could call the cops and spin a yarn, and I'd get taken away from my own house. I am not saying she would EVER do that, but she "could". Well using that logic, right now my boss could call the cops and tell them I was stealing from the supply closet (false). Does that mean I shouldn't come to work? Exactly. I'm off to a meeting so won't be responding for awhile.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 14:15:47 GMT -5
Yes...and all of them know that sleeping with their teachers is a bad idea
And the teacher knows s/he is facing job loss and more than likely jail time when they chase underage tail.
It's a way worse idea for the teacher than the other way around.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:16:04 GMT -5
Yes, Taxman, the frontal lobes of the brain are not fully developed until the mid-twenties. This is particularly true of the areas processing risk-taking behaviors and evaluation of consequences. So, no. I don't have any trouble realizing a 15-year-old is ignorant of the consequences that may be involved with sleeping with a teacher. so in the case of a 15 y/o and a 22 y/o...wouldn't the 22 y/o be a victim also...since he (or she) can't fully understand the evaluation of consequences?? and if they are both victims...is there really a victim at all?? couldn't there be a case where a 15 y/o's brain is actually developed more than a 22 y/o's...thereby negating the whole "I'm 15, I was a victim" mentality??
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:16:54 GMT -5
Yes...and all of them know that sleeping with their teachers is a bad ideaAnd the teacher knows s/he is facing job loss and more than likely jail time when they chase underage tail. It's a way worse idea for the teacher than the other way around. i agree it's worse for the teacher...i'm just stating that i would venture that most 15 y/o's know it's bad for them too.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 14:17:02 GMT -5
The law isn't based JUST on the developmental stages of the brain.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 14:19:39 GMT -5
The 22 year old is the adult and the authority figure. It doesn't matter if the 15 year old is dancing around stark naked in front of him, it's his responsibility to not sleep with her. You are only responsible for your own actions.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 14:19:56 GMT -5
...:::"No matter what the victim does, they are NEVER responsible for being victimized. Yes, I'll defend that statement right to the ground (note: my statement and yours are not the same).":::...
Agree to disagree.
...:::"Yes, absolutely, we are responsible for our own choices in life. We are in control of many things that happen to us. But not crimes. We are not in control of whether or not we become crime victims.":::...
I most certainly have read your posts, and I'll prove it by applying one of your angles here: "as soon as you add a 'but', you negate the first part of your sentence". So its nice to say you believe in personal responsibility, but nobody believes it when you add more exclusions than a Macy*s coupon.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:21:26 GMT -5
The 22 year old is the adult and the authority figure. It doesn't matter if the 15 year old is dancing around stark naked in front of him, it's his responsibility to not sleep with her. You are only responsible for your own actions. the 15 y/o is not responsible for his or hers??
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Aug 6, 2012 14:21:43 GMT -5
...:::"Also, this is the first time I've shared the details of my story on this board, at least since the switch from MSN. I'm certain of that. If you knew about it before now, it must have come up in a PM. So no, I do not hijack many discussions with "this same story."":::...
I should have said "cause", not story. I understand you believe very strongly that victims should not be blamed. I just don't agree that it is all or nothing.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 14:21:55 GMT -5
I remember a girl who left her car running in the parking lot, and when she got back, it had been stolen. Yes, she was a victim in a crime - but she could have done a little bit more to deter that criminal. I would say she is about 20% at fault.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:22:21 GMT -5
Yes...and all of them know that sleeping with their teachers is a bad idea You asked them that? i did actually....but don't ask me why!! ;D
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 14:23:39 GMT -5
The 22 year old is the adult and the authority figure. It doesn't matter if the 15 year old is dancing around stark naked in front of him, it's his responsibility to not sleep with her. You are only responsible for your own actions. the 15 y/o is not responsible for his or hers?? Ok, lets go down that road then....in the legal world the responsibility/consequence of a 15 y/o that has sex is.... nothing. The responsibility/consequence of a 22/28/48 y/o that has sex with a minor is....jail time or some other punishment.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:23:45 GMT -5
i did actually....but don't ask me why!! ;D And if her father beats the crap out of you, it's not your fault.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 14:23:55 GMT -5
the 15 y/o is not responsible for his or hers??
Well if she is dancing butt naked in front of her teacher, yeah someone needs to put a stop to that and figure out why she's doing it in the first place.
BUT she is not breaking the law doing this. The 22 year old is choosing to break the law when he decides that he is going to sleep with a 15 year old.
I've had underage boys think I was cute when I worked as server, but it is MY job as the one whose ass would be in the fire to not let it get to where I am breaking the law.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 14:24:58 GMT -5
Yes, Taxman, the frontal lobes of the brain are not fully developed until the mid-twenties. This is particularly true of the areas processing risk-taking behaviors and evaluation of consequences. So, no. I don't have any trouble realizing a 15-year-old is ignorant of the consequences that may be involved with sleeping with a teacher. so in the case of a 15 y/o and a 22 y/o...wouldn't the 22 y/o be a victim also...since he (or she) can't fully understand the evaluation of consequences?? and if they are both victims...is there really a victim at all?? couldn't there be a case where a 15 y/o's brain is actually developed more than a 22 y/o's...thereby negating the whole "I'm 15, I was a victim" mentality?? By law, no. Is it possible the 22-year-old doesn't have a fully developed frontal lobe? Heck, it's probable. Is it more developed than the 15-year-old's? Yes. Is that relevant? No. The teacher took the responsibility and accepted the position. The teacher is paid to teach the child, and to keep the child safe in the school environment. The law holds the teacher responsible, as it should.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:25:13 GMT -5
i did actually....but don't ask me why!! ;D And if her father beats the crap out of you, it's not your fault. EXACTLY!!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 14:26:01 GMT -5
Likely she is - unless the teacher is in her house or something. But, it is a totally different law. I guess they could go to a national park - I think full nudity there is legal.
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