Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:27:01 GMT -5
so in the case of a 15 y/o and a 22 y/o...wouldn't the 22 y/o be a victim also...since he (or she) can't fully understand the evaluation of consequences?? and if they are both victims...is there really a victim at all?? couldn't there be a case where a 15 y/o's brain is actually developed more than a 22 y/o's...thereby negating the whole "I'm 15, I was a victim" mentality?? By law, no. Is it possible the 22-year-old doesn't have a fully developed frontal lobe? Heck, it's probable. Is it more developed than the 15-year-old's? Yes. Is that relevant? No. The teacher took the responsibility and accepted the position. The teacher is paid to teach the child, and to keep the child safe in the school environment. The law holds the teacher responsible, as it should. so is the teacher in trouble for abuse of authority or b/c the "victim" is 15?? what if the "victim" was the age of consent in that state (AOC ranges from 15 to 18 I believe)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:28:09 GMT -5
I most certainly have read your posts, and I'll prove it by applying one of your angles here: "as soon as you add a 'but', you negate the first part of your sentence". So its nice to say you believe in personal responsibility, but nobody believes it when you add more exclusions than a Macy*s coupon.
Which part of that isn't true? Adding "but" to ANY sentence pretty much means that you don't mean anything you just said. And you've made that exact argument many times.
I've talked many times about how my stance on victim blaming does tend to translate into a giant exception to the personal responsibility rule, and why I believe this is valid. I haven't time to restate the whole argument here. But the crux of it is that, yes, I do believe in personal responsibility until someone comes along and TAKES it from you, which is what happens when you are victimized.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:30:19 GMT -5
This is what happens when my meetings get pushed back ten minutes...
Can I suggest strongly that we avoid idiotic strawmen in these discussions? 15 year olds are not dancing around naked in front of anyone most of the time. Most of the time, we're talking about flirting, suggestive language, immodest clothing. Talk about THAT when you're talking about what they're doing to contribute to the situation (if you must) but let's not say that they're all stripping and hiding naked in their teacher's houses to see if the teachers can resist them because that is simply not true most of the time, if ever.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 6, 2012 14:31:35 GMT -5
By law, no. Is it possible the 22-year-old doesn't have a fully developed frontal lobe? Heck, it's probable. Is it more developed than the 15-year-old's? Yes. Is that relevant? No. The teacher took the responsibility and accepted the position. The teacher is paid to teach the child, and to keep the child safe in the school environment. The law holds the teacher responsible, as it should. so is the teacher in trouble for abuse of authority or b/c the "victim" is 15?? what if the "victim" was the age of consent in that state (AOC ranges from 15 to 18 I believe) Ummm....then it's no longer a legal-criminal matter, but the school has every right to fire the teacher for violating their CoC. Just like colleges can fire professors for sleeping with students even though the student is over 18.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 14:32:09 GMT -5
Firebird if you read my post I said it shouldn't matter, the kid is not the one that is responsible for stopping the situation.
what if the "victim" was the age of consent in that state (AOC ranges from 15 to 18 I believe)
Don't know to be honest as far as jail time, but I know they lose their job. Which they should.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 6, 2012 14:32:20 GMT -5
Are you new here?
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:35:08 GMT -5
so is the teacher in trouble for abuse of authority or b/c the "victim" is 15?? what if the "victim" was the age of consent in that state (AOC ranges from 15 to 18 I believe) Ummm....then it's no longer a legal-criminal matter, but the school has every right to fire the teacher for violating their CoC. Just like colleges can fire professors for sleeping with students even though the student is over 18. has anyone looked into the age of consent yet for the state in the OP?? that could swing the arm of justice one way or the other??
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 14:36:11 GMT -5
I'd even argue that the "buxom student who flaunts her sexuality to get a reaction from the teacher" is a bit of a strawman.
YES, these students certainly exist, but I highly doubt that even 5% of the victims of teacher predators fit into this category. As FB and others have said, those who prey on children have very specific traits they seek. Namely - can the student be pressured to stay quiet? It rarely has anything to do with physical appearance.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 14:37:34 GMT -5
Here is the age of consent by state:
STATE AGE Alabama 16 Alaska 16 Arizona 18 Arkansas 16 California 18 Colorado 15 Connecticut 15 D.C. 16 Delaware 16 Florida 16/18 (bill pending) Georgia 16 Hawaii 14 Idaho 14 Illinois 16/17 Indiana 16 Iowa 18 Kansas 16 Kentucky 16 - [1] Louisiana 17 Maine 16 Maryland 16 Massachusetts 16/18 Michigan 16 Minnesota 16 Mississippi 16 - [2] Missouri 17 Montana 16 Nebraska 16 Nevada 16 New Hampshire 16/18 New Jersey 16/18 New Mexico 17 New York 17 North Carolina 16 North Dakota 18 Ohio 16 Oklahoma 16 Oregon 18 Pennsylvania 16 Rhode Island 16 South Carolina 14/16 South Dakota 16 Tennessee 18 Texas 17 Utah 16/18 Vermont 16 Virginia 15 Washington 16 West Virginia 16 Wisconsin 18 Wyoming 16 Puerto Rico 18
FOOTNOTES: [1]Age 16 if the man is 21 or older. [2]If the female is over 12, the status applies only to virgins.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:37:48 GMT -5
This is what happens when my meetings get pushed back ten minutes... Can I suggest strongly that we avoid idiotic strawmen in these discussions? 15 year olds are not dancing around naked in front of anyone most of the time. Most of the time, we're talking about flirting, suggestive language, immodest clothing. Talk about THAT when you're talking about what they're doing to contribute to the situation (if you must) but let's not say that they're all stripping and hiding naked in their teacher's houses to see if the teachers can resist them because that is simply not true most of the time, if ever. i read a story once about that...but i don't remember if was fiction or non-fiction...
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:38:57 GMT -5
Here is the age of consent by state: STATE AGE Alabama 16 Alaska 16 Arizona 18 Arkansas 16 California 18 Colorado 15 Connecticut 15 D.C. 16 Delaware 16 Florida 16/18 (bill pending) Georgia 16 Hawaii 14 Idaho 14 Illinois 16/17 Indiana 16 Iowa 18 Kansas 16 Kentucky 16 - [1] Louisiana 17 Maine 16 Maryland 16 Massachusetts 16/18 Michigan 16 Minnesota 16 Mississippi 16 - [2] Missouri 17 Montana 16 Nebraska 16 Nevada 16 New Hampshire 16/18 New Jersey 16/18 New Mexico 17 New York 17 North Carolina 16 North Dakota 18 Ohio 16 Oklahoma 16 Oregon 18 Pennsylvania 16 Rhode Island 16 South Carolina 14/16 South Dakota 16 Tennessee 18 Texas 17 Utah 16/18 Vermont 16 Virginia 15 Washington 16 West Virginia 16 Wisconsin 18 Wyoming 16 Puerto Rico 18 FOOTNOTES: [1]Age 16 if the man is 21 or older. [2]If the female is over 12, the status applies only to virgins. thanks thyme!! so if the "victim" is in idaho...it's a go at 14. as long as a teacher is not involved?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 14:40:47 GMT -5
Firebird if you read my post I said it shouldn't matter, the kid is not the one that is responsible for stopping the situation.
I know, Drama, I know you did. But my point is that even if the student isn't doing anything nearly as extreme as that, it's still not their responsibility to be putting the brakes on things.
A lot of people believe that if someone is doing something extreme enough, then it IS their fault (like the naked example). And for that reason, I just think it's not helpful to use that as an example when it doesn't represent how things unfold in the majority of cases.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 14:40:56 GMT -5
If it started "Dear Penthouse, I never thought it would happen to me..." then it was fiction.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 6, 2012 14:46:41 GMT -5
I was going to respond but I have a feeling I am starting to dig my own grave. I'll just say that we agree with each other even if I apparently used a very bad example.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 14:48:11 GMT -5
This question is irrelevant to the subject under discussion.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 14:58:46 GMT -5
This question is irrelevant to the subject under discussion. did we every find out what state, this supposed "victim" is in?? I'm just trying to find out how enraged I should be... 1. teacher/student sex rage or 2. teacher/student statutory rape rage
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 15:02:27 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if the student is 18 or even 19! It's not about ages, it's about the power imbalance between teacher and student. Age does factor in, because most HS students are <18, but it's not solely an issue of age.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 15:04:22 GMT -5
So, if you are a 22 year old teacher, and start an affair with a 19 year old student, is that illegal? Or just against school rules? Let's say you are fired, good riddance. But, would you also be arrested?
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 15:06:06 GMT -5
So, if you are a 22 year old teacher, and start an affair with a 19 year old student, is that illegal? Or just against school rules? Let's say you are fired, good riddance. But, would you also be arrested? no i don't think so. in fact in my state the AOC is 16, and i remember a news story recently where the teacher and a 17 y/o were doing "non-pg13 things" and the authorities couldn't really do anything to the teacher b/c the student was of age. he did lose his job i beleive.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 15:07:03 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if the student is 18 or even 19! It's not about ages, it's about the power imbalance between teacher and student. Age does factor in, because most HS students are <18, but it's not solely an issue of age. it has to do with my level of rage...i'm sorry I just don't get as rage filled as some people....it's because I have a mellow, relaxed personality.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 6, 2012 15:08:45 GMT -5
An affair between a 19yo and a 22yo teacher wouldn't be illegal, though the teacher would almost certainly be fired. I suppose if the state had a law forbidding teacher/student relationships, that would be different... but to my knowledge, no states have a law like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 15:11:02 GMT -5
An affair between a 19yo and a 22yo teacher wouldn't be illegal, though the teacher would almost certainly be fired. I suppose if the state had a law forbidding teacher/student relationships, that would be different... but to my knowledge, no states have a law like that. Not many high school students are 19 and not many university professors are 22 so the situation wouldn't come up very often.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 15:11:31 GMT -5
An affair between a 19yo and a 22yo teacher wouldn't be illegal, though the teacher would almost certainly be fired. I suppose if the state had a law forbidding teacher/student relationships, that would be different... but to my knowledge, no states have a law like that. love has no tethers
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 15:14:41 GMT -5
Half of high school seniors are 18 for at least part of the year - so we have possibilities.
But if the age of consent is 16, and the girl is 17 - is it still illegal, or is it just against school policy? I'm actually confused here. I was told that the age of consent was 18, but they never prosecuted 2 teenagers, as long as they were within 2 years of each other.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Aug 6, 2012 15:16:57 GMT -5
the 15 y/o is not responsible for his or hers?? Well if she is dancing butt naked in front of her teacher, yeah someone needs to put a stop to that and figure out why she's doing it in the first place. BUT she is not breaking the law doing this. The 22 year old is choosing to break the law when he decides that he is going to sleep with a 15 year old. I've had underage boys think I was cute when I worked as server, but it is MY job as the one whose ass would be in the fire to not let it get to where I am breaking the law. i believe the term is "buck naked" is it not??
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 15:17:42 GMT -5
Meh - both work.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 15:23:21 GMT -5
Half of high school seniors are 18 for at least part of the year - so we have possibilities. But if the age of consent is 16, and the girl is 17 - is it still illegal, or is it just against school policy? I'm actually confused here. I was told that the age of consent was 18, but they never prosecuted 2 teenagers, as long as they were within 2 years of each other. The legality issue is decided by the existing laws in the state concerning age of consent. If a student is at, or above the age of consent, the law wouldn't get involved unless some other crime was committed in the process. The school, however, has rules for the behavior of their staff, so the teacher would be fired in the vast majority of cases, I'm sure.l
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 6, 2012 15:26:37 GMT -5
Man - I hope so!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 6, 2012 15:28:30 GMT -5
I can't imagine a school that doesn't have a rule precluding that sort of behavior, thyme. Not having such would leave them open to way too much liability.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 6, 2012 15:30:57 GMT -5
But if the age of consent is 16, and the girl is 17 - is it still illegal, or is it just against school policy? I'm actually confused here. I was told that the age of consent was 18, but they never prosecuted 2 teenagers, as long as they were within 2 years of each other.
Probably just against policy (meaning you would be fired). You could likely skate on the legal issue if your student was over the age of consent (I don't think grad students who teach college courses are prosecuted for having relationships with their overage students, for example) but that doesn't mean it's an ethical thing to do.
Like I said, if you fall in love with someone over whom you have a power, the only ethical thing to do (assuming they feel the same way) is to get out of that power-imbalanced relationship before proceeding. Teacher-student, doctor-patient, boss-subordinate, coach-player, anything like that.
People fall in love. It happens. But there's no rule that you MUST have a relationship the second you fall for someone and they fall for you back. There are times when the right thing to do is wait.
I do in fact know one teacher who married a student and wasn't prosecuted or anything. They waited until she was 18 and out of high school before pursuing their relationship. They've been happily married for almost a decade. I don't see anything wrong with that. Sometimes it really is that simple.
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