Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:02:21 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread just a month or so back about a women who had documented evidence of sexual harrassment, but was hesitant to go to HR because of what it could do to her career? Several posters concurred that she would be labelled a trouble maker and face problems in the future even with the evidence she had.
This scenario is MUCH more common than one where a woman decides to go to HR and report on an innocent coworker for sexual harassment just for the sheer fun of it.
Which is not to say the latter NEVER happens, or that it's not very bad and unjust when it does happen.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:05:32 GMT -5
"This scenario is MUCH more common than one where a woman decides to go to HR and report on an innocent coworker for sexual harassment just for the sheer fun of it. "
I don't think people are implying they do it for the fun of it, they do it because they're overly sensitive and looking for an excuse to feel harassed because that's today's culture...everyone's a victim. I think that attitude is far more prevalent than someone just doing it "for fun". Also probably less prevalent than people who do it as a form of revenge against someone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:10:01 GMT -5
I'm ok with that. Just as many women are unreasonable and make bogus fake sexual harassment charges because they're being overly sensitive as men who act unreasonable and commit sexual harrassment.
No. That flat-out isn't true. The split is NOT 50-50. HR directors do not have "just as many" false accusations from silly girls on file as they have legitimate sexual harassment charges.
Being male, you might want to consider the possibility that you have a blind spot about this, hoops. Just a thought.
Of course it's not sexist to imply that sometimes men sexually harass women...because sometimes it happesn. It's also not sexist to imply that sometimes women make it up, that happens too.
*deep breath* Okay, hoops, one more time, REALLY slowly.
1) Yes, women sometimes lie, exaggerate, or overreact.
2) Using a ridiculous and extreme example of #1 (e.g., a woman who accuses a man of harassment because he says hello to her in the hallway) as if it's something that the average man needs to watch out for at his workplace is not fair.
3) It's not fair because using the example in that way implies that MOST or ALL harassment claims are similarly ridiculous and extreme, which is not true.
4) Implying that MOST or ALL harassment claims are as ridiculous and extreme as that minimizes and dismisses the VERY REAL harassment claims that DO exist.
5) Minimizing and dismissing the VERY REAL harassment claims that DO exist by implying that they are all as stupid as that one is a sexist statement.
I don't know how to make this any clearer. I'm not saying that SF's ridiculous and extreme example has never happened anywhere, I am saying it is NOT a good example of the AVERAGE harassment claim and should not be used as such.
Because to do so is to use a strawman argument that is sexist and hurtful to women who are experiencing real sexual harassment in the workplace.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:12:19 GMT -5
I don't think people are implying they do it for the fun of it, they do it because they're overly sensitive and looking for an excuse to feel harassed because that's today's culture...everyone's a victim.
Well, you may feel like my preference to not be told that I have nice breasts by a male coworker in the workplace is an example of my "oversensitivity" but that doesn't mean that I should have to put up with it.
The standard for what makes women feel unsafe and harassed in the workplace, shockingly enough, is NOT "what hoops decides isn't an overreaction."
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 25, 2011 17:14:02 GMT -5
[quote author=hoops902 board=finance thread=6988 post=280238 time=1303769132I don't think people are implying they do it for the fun of it, they do it because they're overly sensitive and looking for an excuse to feel harassed because that's today's culture...everyone's a victim. I think that attitude is far more prevalent than someone just doing it "for fun". Also probably less prevalent than people who do it as a form of revenge against someone. [/quote]
I don't think that most sexual harrassment claims are because people are overly sensitive. Some are, but I think there is quite a difference from saying that most are.
I've witnessed plenty of inappropriate conversations in work places over the years, that could have and maybe should have been reported if not for sexual harrassment at least for common sense. From both men and women, and I think that people need to relearn how to keep their mouth shut at work. What is funny with your friends, may not appropriate to bring up in the office.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 17:19:58 GMT -5
I've been out of this thread for a while. Amekio, yes men are that stupid, so are women but in this case he was speaking about men. Hoops, wow. You are behaving in a sexist, ridiculous, horrifying manner. Your attitude and similar attitudes do contribute to women not being able to go to the boss (or bosses boss) when a man is behaving in a harassing manner. How about, if she tells you no, leave her alone, not hard. Don't be alone with her, women have had to do that to protect themselves (physically), you are not going to make me feel bad that men now have to (to protect themselves from a charge). I don't know where you got the idea "everyone's a victim" but no, people in power do abuse it, and it is not uncommon for a man to harass a woman because he thinks he can get away with it. If more women felt they could confront the harasser or remove them, the harassing would decrease. I'm only 26 and have had four separate times (at different jobs) where men have crossed the line. I don't want to know your sex life, I don't want to know what you want to do with that girl etc. Two of the four times I said something to the men involved, once I was young and worried for my job and another I told the boss. Btw, the boss did nothing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:24:09 GMT -5
"HR directors do not have "just as many" false accusations from silly girls on file as they have legitimate sexual harassment charges. "
Again, why? Because you say so? How do you know how many of them are legit vs women being overly sensitive? That's my entire point, you ASSUME they're legit, because you're a woman. How is that any different than me assuming that they're not legit? But me assuming they're not legit makes me sexist, you assuming the man did sexually harass the woman makes you not sexist though? I assume that women are liars in these claims and that makes me sexist? You assume that men are pigs in these claims and that makes you not sexist?
"3) It's not fair because using the example in that way implies that MOST or ALL harassment claims are similarly ridiculous and extreme, which is not true. "
I'm not saying most, or all. I'm saying that branding those who call it "common" or "often" as sexist is ridiculous. It can happen often and be very common without being most or all.
" I am saying it is NOT a good example of the AVERAGE harassment claim and should not be used as such. "
As far as that goes I would say no example is goign to be a good indicator of the "average". Though an example which points out that men need to be careful about all interactiongs with women because any woman at any time can interpret simple harmless gestures as harassment IS something men need to watch out for in the workplace.
"Being male, you might want to consider the possibility that you have a blind spot about this, hoops. Just a thought."
Absolutely, and being female you might want to consider the possibility that your own victim mentality causes you to see men as the big bad monster and causes you to side with women when it's "he said she said".
"4) Implying that MOST or ALL harassment claims are as ridiculous and extreme as that minimizes and dismisses the VERY REAL harassment claims that DO exist."
I don't think most or all are that extreme. I just think a very large portion of them are ridiculous and made up by overly sensitive women. Your insistence that most of them are legitimate minimizes the very real false accusations that DO exist. Which is exactly what keeps the false accusations going, as long as people keep believing "well she said it, it must be true", women will continue making false accusations for their own personal emotional and monetary gain.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:27:17 GMT -5
"but no, people in power do abuse it, and it is not uncommon for a man to harass a woman because he thinks he can get away with it"
Absolutely, and people without power find ways to get it, like making or threatening to make false allegations taht they feel people will believe. And it's not uncommon for women to make up things which aren't there due to their continued victim mentality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 17:29:15 GMT -5
Your insistence that most of them are legitimate minimizes the very real false accusations that DO exist. Which is exactly what keeps the false accusations going, as long as people keep believing "well she said it, it must be true", women will continue making false accusations for their own personal emotional and monetary gain. BULLSHIT! Hoops, grow up, the world does not work that way. Most women will not call harassment because even if they get a sum of money, their reputation is screwed and hurts their future prospects. I have no problem telling anyone to back off but even I did not feel comfortable when it was four guys from the kitchen (who have been known to cause problems if you complained) and 2 of the waiters. And guess what, I complain and they were told, don't do it around Gin. Great way to protect me and yes it got around the entire department (which the boss was not suppose to do).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 17:30:16 GMT -5
"but no, people in power do abuse it, and it is not uncommon for a man to harass a woman because he thinks he can get away with it" Absolutely, and people without power find ways to get it, like making or threatening to make false allegations taht they feel people will believe. And it's not uncommon for women to make up things which aren't there due to their continued victim mentality. Again, bullshit. Most women do not have a "victim mentality". You disgust me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:32:22 GMT -5
"Hoops, grow up, the world does not work that way. "
The world works exactly that way, though I understand why you claim it doesn't...it wouldn't behoove you as a woman to draw to light the reality of how good you have it. "Oh you side with the man, you're a sexist. Oh you side with the woman..oh you're so enlightened"
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:33:54 GMT -5
"but no, people in power do abuse it, and it is not uncommon for a man to harass a woman because he thinks he can get away with it" Absolutely, and people without power find ways to get it, like making or threatening to make false allegations taht they feel people will believe. And it's not uncommon for women to make up things which aren't there due to their continued victim mentality. Again, bullshit. Most women do not have a "victim mentality". You disgust me. They don't? I'd go so far as to say most men and women have a victim mentality. Men just have a harder time trying to find someone to claim is mistreating them. I think men would pull the same stuff women pull, it's not as if I think men are better, we just have fewer options to aim our victim mentality at.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:34:25 GMT -5
Because you say so? How do you know how many of them are legit vs women being overly sensitive?
Define "overly sensitive" for me, would you please, hoops? I want details. Exactly what sort of inappropriate behavior am I supposed to be putting up with at my place of business? Because if what I reported my coworker for doing to me is on your little list, I want to make sure I go STRAIGHT to the HR director to tell her that I was being overly sensitive.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:37:39 GMT -5
" Exactly what sort of inappropriate behavior am I supposed to be putting up with at my place of business?"
Anything that doesn't put you in physical danger or trade sexual favors for on the job perks.
Basically, no touching, no threatening negative consequences for saying no.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:37:40 GMT -5
How is that any different than me assuming that they're not legit? But me assuming they're not legit makes me sexist, you assuming the man did sexually harass the woman makes you not sexist though? I assume that women are liars in these claims and that makes me sexist? You assume that men are pigs in these claims and that makes you not sexist?
Since you asked:
1) Because automatically assuming that a claim of harassment is illegitimate when you don't know the whole story is victim-blaming,
2) Correct,
3) Correct,
4) Incorrect, I don't assume all men are pigs. I just ALSO don't assume that the women are automatically lying.
In the absence of the full story, I do not automatically assume that a woman who accuses a man of harassment is lying.
And if you don't want to come across as a misogynistic, sexist jerk, that should not be your automatic assumption either.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 17:40:40 GMT -5
" Exactly what sort of inappropriate behavior am I supposed to be putting up with at my place of business?" Anything that doesn't put you in physical danger or trade sexual favors for on the job perks. Basically, no touching, no threatening negative consequences for saying no.Really? I am suppose to put up with hearing them talk about having sex or getting blow jobs? Or "banging" that woman? I am so glad not all men are like you.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:42:09 GMT -5
Anything that doesn't put you in physical danger or trade sexual favors for on the job perks.
Basically, no touching, no threatening negative consequences for saying no.
So the following are okay then:
1) "I know you said no to me before, but I think you're just afraid that your boyfriend is going to be jealous - remember, he doesn't have to know."
2) "You look really nice today, that material really flatters your chest."
3) "I had such a great time with Sarah last night, she gives incredible blowjobs. You look like you would too."
4) "You're so uptight all the time, you need to get laid and loosen up."
5) "I can't believe someone as pretty as you doesn't have a boyfriend."
6) "I don't understand why you won't go out with me - I'm a nice guy and I should have a chance to prove it to you."
7) "It's not a date, I just really want to be friends and get to know you."
Those are okay for you, Hoops? Those are things you just expect women to put up with at their WORKPLACE? Because if so, I have nothing further to say to you on this subject.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:45:05 GMT -5
The world works exactly that way, though I understand why you claim it doesn't...it wouldn't behoove you as a woman to draw to light the reality of how good you have it. "Oh you side with the man, you're a sexist. Oh you side with the woman..oh you're so enlightened"
Ever think that "siding with the woman instead of the man in the absence of hard evidence either way" might be considered an enlightened viewpoint precisely BECAUSE women have been silenced and ignored and dismissed for so long?
When I encounter a man who gives women the benefit of the doubt, yes, it impresses me. Do you know why? Because it means that he's one of the rare men who can look past his male privilege and acknowledge that hey, I'm not a woman and I actually don't know what it feels like to feel threatened and harassed and unsafe in the workplace, and absent that knowledge, I should probably not make wild assumptions about what it should look like and how it should make women feel.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:51:13 GMT -5
"In the absence of the full story, I do not automatically assume that a woman who accuses a man of harassment is lying.
And if you don't want to come across as a misogynistic, sexist jerk, that should not be your automatic assumption either. "
So in the absence of the full story, what DO you assume? Interesting how you're apparently angered by an "innocent until proven guilty" mentality.
"Those are okay for you, Hoops? Those are things you just expect women to put up with at their WORKPLACE? Because if so, I have nothing further to say to you on this subject. "
I would say that "if you say no I'm going to keep bugging you" would be negative consequences..so repeated attempts are off limits. I don't think the negative consequences have to be major or blatant...simply doing it again and again is proof that saying no has negative consequences.
But yeah I think most of those are ok. 1 is clearly off limits due to the "saying no and continuing" consequences. The others are inappropriate sometimes but inappropriate does not always equal sexual harassment.
Do you think all 7 of those are sexual harassment?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:53:02 GMT -5
"When I encounter a man who gives women the benefit of the doubt, yes, it impresses me. Do you know why?"
Because everyone likes people who will automatically side with them in a disagreement, even if the reason for doing so is something as sexist as their gender.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 25, 2011 17:53:10 GMT -5
That kind of conversation doesn't just belong in men's groups. Women do it too. And they do it even more. I can't even tell you how many personal details women share in all kinds of language at work.
When I was working, no matter how much I liked I person, I NEVER had any interest in knowing when they had their periods and how bad their cramps were. I NEVER had any interest in seeing pics of their C-sections. I NEVER had any interest in learning about how their nipples changed after breastfeeding. I NEVER had any interest in knowing ALL about their weight gain, weight loss, how their butts and thighs look terrible in swimsuits.
I also NEVER has any interest in seeing their boobs or feet or legs and yet, I was expose to ALL OF THAT.
May be women would feel just a bit more safe in a workplace if they behaved a bit smarter, dressed a bit more modestly and didn't treat their coworkers as therapists and "best buddies"
Lena
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:56:24 GMT -5
So in the absence of the full story, what DO you assume? Interesting how you're apparently angered by an "innocent until proven guilty" mentality.
In the absence of the full story, I assume nothing actually. "Innocent until proven guilty" does not mean that you automatically assume that self-proclaimed victims are lying. But if you HAVE to make assumptions based on limited knowledge, your instinct should be to protect the person who may have suffered real injury as opposed to the accused party who may, theoretically, maybe someday suffer from the injury of being falsely accused.
If someone claimed to be mugged on the way home, would your first impulse be to doubt his story? If not, why not? And why is harassment any different?
Do you think all 7 of those are sexual harassment?
Not only do I THINK they're sexual harassment, they ARE sexual harassment. Being asked out repeatedly after you have said no is sexual harassment. Being forced to listen to explicit sexual discussion is sexual harassment. Being forced to listen to comments about your body is sexual harassment.
LOOK IT UP IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:57:20 GMT -5
Because everyone likes people who will automatically side with them in a disagreement, even if the reason for doing so is something as sexist as their gender.
No, that's not the reason. At this point, though, I'm pretty sure you didn't even read my actual answer to that rhetorical question, nor would you have any idea what I meant by the phrase "male privilege" if you did.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 17:59:24 GMT -5
May be women would feel just a bit more safe in a workplace if they behaved a bit smarter, dressed a bit more modestly and didn't treat their coworkers as therapists and "best buddies"
For the record, I despise that kind of talk too (I don't like small talk in general, and especially anything TMI - I just don't want to hear it, from anyone).
However, it's not just women who encourage that kind of talk that have to listen to it. I would never dream of discussing my sex life with a coworker, yet I've overheard that kind of discussion more times than I can count. Just because I don't WANT to hear it doesn't mean I don't.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 18:03:56 GMT -5
"Not only do I THINK they're sexual harassment, they ARE sexual harassment. Being asked out repeatedly after you have said no is sexual harassment. Being forced to listen to explicit sexual discussion is sexual harassment. Being forced to listen to comments about your body is sexual harassment. "
And that's why you've got a victim mentality.
I should go, I've got some sexual harassment reporting to do. Someone today told me they liked my hair after I got it cut. I don't need comments about my body. Maybe this way they'll learn!
ETA: For the record, I'm sure you've never compliment anyone on a haircut, noted how tan someone got over vacation, etc...rigth? You wouldn't dare sexually harass someone like that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2011 18:04:50 GMT -5
May be women would feel just a bit more safe in a workplace if they behaved a bit smarter, dressed a bit more modestly and didn't treat their coworkers as therapists and "best buddies"For the record, I despise that kind of talk too (I don't like small talk in general, and especially anything TMI - I just don't want to hear it, from anyone). However, it's not just women who encourage that kind of talk that have to listen to it. I would never dream of discussing my sex life with a coworker, yet I've overheard that kind of discussion more times than I can count. Just because I don't WANT to hear it doesn't mean I don't. I don't want to hear it either...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 25, 2011 18:06:39 GMT -5
And you always will. We got VERY laxed in our standards of what is appropriate and what is not. Nothing is sacred anymore and nothing is left to imagination anymore.
In my personal experience I've encountered more women that I wanted to shut up than men. Men mostly talked about sports and even though I am not into sports, obviously I don't care if they talk about. Women? Oh dear Lord, very few of them knew any boudaries.
Lena
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 18:08:03 GMT -5
"In my personal experience I've encountered more women that I wanted to shut up than men. Men mostly talked about sports and even though I am not into sports, obviously I don't care if they talk about. Women? Oh dear Lord, very few of them knew any boudaries."
Did all the men run around filing sexual harassment charges against them?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 18:09:29 GMT -5
ETA: For the record, I'm sure you've never compliment anyone on a haircut, noted how tan someone got over vacation, etc...rigth? You wouldn't dare sexually harass someone like that.
I have never commented on a coworker's breast or butt or speculated about how big their tool is, no. And if I did, it would be sexual harassment.
A compliment on a person's tan or haircut is fine. Remarking on a SEXUALIZED, PRIVATE BODY PART is not fine. I'm pretty astounded you can't appreciate the difference, although I know I shouldn't be at this point.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 18:13:15 GMT -5
And that's why you've got a victim mentality.
No, actually, providing real examples of an accepted definition of a term does not mean I have a victim mentality. It means I am trying (in vain) to explain something to you that you will probably never understand.
I'm glad for you that you've never had occasion to feel unsafe or objectified, hoops. I'm glad you've never had a reason to feel scared that a coworker who told you that you had a nice body and he wanted to do something about it might take the next step and, hey, actually DO something about it.
We should all be so lucky.
But for the record, women (and men) who are not so lucky are not being overly sensitive. You should not have to feel threatened or uncomfortable in a place where you're expected to be forty hours a week.
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