azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 23, 2011 23:36:14 GMT -5
I fail to see how it is her responsibly to keep him from "cheating" or how his marital status has any effect on any of this:other than it is another part of his life he is trashing..... If she was forced into this to save her job - then he is the only guilty party. If she was less than innocent, he is still the majority guilty in terms of his job and 100% in terms of the marriage. Of course he is guilty for violating company policy and the sanctity of his marriage, no question. But she is not guiltless either, from what it sounds like. She could have as easily gone to HR if he was coercing her into sex, rather than just succumb to it (unless he held a gun to her head, but that's not what it sounds like). I'm just saying that her moral compass seems off as well, so he was not the only stupid one in this situation (hence my objection to the thread title).
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 24, 2011 5:19:53 GMT -5
She isn't the only woman to sleep her to the top or to keep her job. It happened a lot before women were hired/promoted on merit. You don't know her story either.She could be a single mom or have a husband/parents to support.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2011 7:48:32 GMT -5
But she is not guiltless either, from what it sounds like. She could have as easily gone to HR if he was coercing her into sex, rather than just succumb to it (unless he held a gun to her head, but that's not what it sounds like). I'm just saying that her moral compass seems off as well, so he was not the only stupid one in this situation (hence my objection to the thread title). That's my feeling, too. She got a bad review, apparently deserved, and the job wasn't working out. Rather than try to improve or look for another job, she agreed to a sexual relationship with someone who would give her a review that was a lie. And, zibazinski, being a single mother wouldn't exonerate her either IMO. I had 2 jobs fall apart when I was a single mother getting no child support. One was bad politics, the other was a consulting firm that fell on hard times. I found myself another job both times, rather than beating my head against the wall by working at a place that wasn't right for me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 24, 2011 8:17:25 GMT -5
Ur braver than most and remember this economy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2011 11:18:30 GMT -5
She isn't the only woman to sleep her to the top or to keep her job. It happened a lot before women were hired/promoted on merit. You don't know her story either.She could be a single mom or have a husband/parents to support. So that would make it acceptable?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 24, 2011 13:13:16 GMT -5
Of course not but it happens.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 24, 2011 14:00:40 GMT -5
That she is taking more heat for this than an embezzler or an outright fraud is telling. How so? Are we not allowed to criticize her poor decisions at all then?
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 24, 2011 18:41:13 GMT -5
ETA: Overall as a society I see a great propensity to examine the minutest flaws of the victim and their actions, whilst glossing over the acute sins of the perpetrator. Particularly in the case of crimes against women. Why do you assume that she's the victim here? Maybe she knew that he was a weak person, and exploited his weakness for her own benefit. And as far as being desperate, is that really a valid excuse for having a weak moral character? Personally I wouldn't trust an employee or friend who puts aside their ethics during times of difficulty. Would you? Maybe you're looking this as a gender issue, but I'm not. I think they were both stupid in their actions. After all, it takes two to tango. I mean, if an attractive married man propositioned you for sex, would you willingly go along with it without any feelings of guilt or wrongdoing, and place all the responsibility on him for the damage it might cause to his marriage?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2011 7:28:17 GMT -5
You can bet this woman was not the first woman he laid because of his position in the company but having it cost him his job, it may certainly be his last. While he may very well spin a tale for his wife, she isn't THAT stupid, either, but will choose to believe him because it is in her best interests to do so. The whole situation is sad and sick. I'd like to know if the company will tell any future employers the truth as to why he was fired. Bet not.
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Post by pig on Apr 25, 2011 8:27:47 GMT -5
What? 5-30 minutes of pleasure worth it? Someone's not doing it right.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 25, 2011 8:50:47 GMT -5
I hope it was the best piece of tail he ever got cuz it sure was expensive!!!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Apr 25, 2011 10:02:52 GMT -5
I'm late to this thread, and I'm not going to read three pages, so if this is redundant- so be it: The OP says he was fired for sexual harassment, not that he was guilty of sexual harassment. If I were him, I'd hire an attorney and go after the employer. The reality is that employers worry a lot more about the person crying, "Sexual harassment!" than they do being sued by the person that stands accused. The evidence is likely flimsy, if there's any evidence at all.
I've never been fired for cause, but I think it'd be an interesting situation to be in to say the least-- lots of recourse.
Now, if I'm wrong- if this has been asked, and more detail provided, etc- fine, I stand corrected. However, it's been my personal experience that sexual harassment scares the sh** out of employers, and they knee-jerk react at the slightest accusation or mention of it. I find the whole concept to be quite flimsy to start with.
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The J
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Post by The J on Apr 25, 2011 13:28:32 GMT -5
I'm late to this thread, and I'm not going to read three pages, so if this is redundant- so be it: The OP says he was fired for sexual harassment, not that he was guilty of sexual harassment. If I were him, I'd hire an attorney and go after the employer. The reality is that employers worry a lot more about the person crying, "Sexual harassment!" than they do being sued by the person that stands accused. The evidence is likely flimsy, if there's any evidence at all. I've never been fired for cause, but I think it'd be an interesting situation to be in to say the least-- lots of recourse. Now, if I'm wrong- if this has been asked, and more detail provided, etc- fine, I stand corrected. However, it's been my personal experience that sexual harassment scares the sh** out of employers, and they knee-jerk react at the slightest accusation or mention of it. I find the whole concept to be quite flimsy to start with. You missed the part where each party had naked cell phone pics of the other person....
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 25, 2011 14:04:29 GMT -5
He also missed the part where he changed her job eval in exchange for screwing him.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 14:27:01 GMT -5
Anyway, gonna end here and get some sleep. I still love ya Cawiau and I did intentionally go over the top. I just don't like the sexism in your OP. Also, I got hit once with a sexual harrasment charge at work. What did I do? Well after getting turned down for a date, I later invited her to join to go with several mutual friends to a concert.
Depending on how much you guys still talked, this could have been taken as an indication that you were still interested. I probably wouldn't have jumped straight to harassment, BUT I don't know how much you creeped the girl out when you asked her for a date.
I think most of the time, if you are turned down for a date by someone it's a good idea to avoid them socially unless they initiate contact. Otherwise it can come across as heavy-handed and yes, sometimes cross the delicate line into harassment.
ETA: Overall as a society I see a great propensity to examine the minutest flaws of the victim and their actions, whilst glossing over the acute sins of the perpetrator. Particularly in the case of crimes against women.
This. So much this. Especially in cases of harassment. People are very, very quick to ask questions like, "Well, why didn't she just avoid him / turn him down more directly / bring this up sooner / etc.?" rather than focusing on the fact that she feels unsafe around this person.
And with actual sex crimes, it's even worse. This kind of attitude is one of the main factors that continues to contribute to rape culture.
I honestly haven't even been paying that much attention to this specific situation (general impression: they were both stupid and potentially exploitative) but the automatic mentality of so many (mostly) men when it comes to sexual harassment - I gotta say, it pisses me off.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 14:30:09 GMT -5
Now, if I'm wrong- if this has been asked, and more detail provided, etc- fine, I stand corrected. However, it's been my personal experience that sexual harassment scares the sh** out of employers, and they knee-jerk react at the slightest accusation or mention of it. I find the whole concept to be quite flimsy to start with.
See, it's been my experience - and the experience of many other women - that a lot of employers don't give a shit about sexual harassment claims, and are quick to laugh them off or act like the woman is making a big to-do about nothing.
Personally, I'm happy if employers are taking these charges more seriously. That's as it should be. No, people shouldn't be automatically fired over them, but if a woman is bothered enough by a man's actions to report it, the very least the company should do is investigate the claim without bias.
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msgumby
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Post by msgumby on Apr 25, 2011 14:35:41 GMT -5
A few things in response to those that feel the woman should be fired/get in trouble for "consenting" to the sexual relations (and also to those saying they would just say no in a similar situation). Having spent years volunteering in domestic violence/sexual assualt, these issues are often a lot more complex and it can be hard for many people to say no. These situations are often about power and control and have very little to do with the actual acts committed themselves. We don't know if this boss had been harassing her for years, belittling her, or otherwise manipulating her to be more vulnerable to his advances - often abusers "select" people to harass that are easy for them to manipulate and control and may spend years building up to it. We don't know how much power this person had over her, how much he threatened her job. He may have told her if she didn't consent that day, he would have her fired, tell everyone at work she slept with him, or who knows what other threats could have been made. It can be a lot harder to say no in these situations than people think. If it truely was an instance of him abusing his power over her, victim blaiming and judging makes it easier to think that you couldn't ever end up in that situation. And it's easy to say what you think you would do, but the reality is until you are faced in a similar situation, you have no idea what it would be like and how you really would react.
The above statements only really apply if the situation was a "true" sexual harassment situation. If she made the advances, none of it would apply. If the relationship was mutual, it would be a lot harder to judge. It can be hard to determine what exact is consent in situations with large power/control differences between two people. I am by no way saying that this qualified as a situation of sexual harassment - I don't know, I wasn't there. I only want to say that if it truely was a situation where the boss exerted his power to extract sexual favors, it is impossible for us to know the situation in the victims mind that allowed her to go along with this. Just because you believe you would have done differently in a similar situation, doesn't make the victim at fault for the perpetrators abuse.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 25, 2011 15:28:48 GMT -5
...:::"What? 5-30 minutes of pleasure worth it?":::...
Try going without for a few months, then ask the question again.
...:::"What did he do? Nearly anything can be considered harrassment. Even saying hello, good morning, etc., while passing in the corridor can be considered harrassment.":::...
I agree, and this could put a serious damper on people's willingness to work together if they fear that any word can be misinterpreted or twisted in the above manner.
...:::"He was fired immediately and she is suspended until completion of the internal investigation.":::...
It will be interesting if she gets to keep her job. When a subordinate uses a phrase like "what can I do" or worse, "I'll do anything", it seems implied that he/she is trying to offer some kind of bribe. In light of cawiau's clarifications, I don't think her prospects look that great.
...:::"She told HR that he promised to change her review/let her keep her job in exchange for sexual favors.":::...
This is where we'll never know the real details. When she said "what can I do" did she say it in a serious tone, or did she start playing with her hair, and licking her lips suggestively? Or was she all business, but he took advantage? It seems to me that she could have done much better for herself baiting him into propositioning her, then suing for harassment as a victim. She'd have probably taken home a lump sum worth far more than her salary and still gotten him fired. Did she keep sleeping with him after she got her review changed or was it a cash under the counter transaction?
...:::"But will I fire some of the people that work for me because they are cheating on their spouse? NO.":::...
What if YOUR job was in the balance too? As has been said, harassment suits can cost companies beaucoup bucks. You know that once the guy goes down he is going to say anything he thinks will help him. If it comes out that you knew he was cheating, then you could be considered complicit.
...:::"why mess with someone at work?":::...
In this case, the guy had the leverage to get sex without buying presents and taking her out on dates.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 25, 2011 15:52:12 GMT -5
...:::"I hope it was the best piece of tail he ever got cuz it sure was expensive!!!":::...
It is also possible that the guy was well networked. For all we know one of his buddies offered him an equivalent job over drinks while they each bragged about their conquests.
Ameiko, I too posted early before seeing cawiau's clarification. I agree the title and first few bits of detail were far different than what I thought the thread would be. I was geared up for another story about one of cawiau's cousins... perhaps the guy married to the $200k earning lawyer, doing something stupid.
...:::"I think most of the time, if you are turned down for a date by someone it's a good idea to avoid them socially unless they initiate contact. Otherwise it can come across as heavy-handed and yes, sometimes cross the delicate line into harassment.":::...
And this is exactly where companies have to be very careful not to overreact. What if Ameiko and that woman had to work on a project together, and Ameiko did not want to be alone with her for fear that she would "drum up more evidence".
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:01:48 GMT -5
And this is exactly where companies have to be very careful not to overreact. What if Ameiko and that woman had to work on a project together, and Ameiko did not want to be alone with her for fear that she would "drum up more evidence".
Well, for starters, there is almost never any professional reason to be alone with someone that you work with and have had awkward personal interactions with in the past. And if you have been the orchestrator of said awkward personal interaction (i.e., you ask a woman out and she says no) then you'd do well to go out of your way to keep everything as aboveboard, professional, and polite as possible.
Try to never be alone with her, and if you must be, leave the office door open, or at least cracked while you're talking. Don't stay late to work on the project without other people around. Don't make any personal comments whatsoever, focus on the task at hand. I mean, this is pretty basic stuff.
If you do those things, then the woman has no way to "drum up more evidence."
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:04:48 GMT -5
...:::"What did he do? Nearly anything can be considered harrassment. Even saying hello, good morning, etc., while passing in the corridor can be considered harrassment.":::...
I agree, and this could put a serious damper on people's willingness to work together if they fear that any word can be misinterpreted or twisted in the above manner.
Again, I'm going to point out that without surrounding context, NO ONE in their right mind would ever make a report of sexual harassment based on a common, friendly greeting in the hallway between coworkers.
Anyone who is that committed to causing drama a) is going to cause it regardless and b) is most likely going to get hirself into a situation where there's much more legit drama to report.
Making "aren't women silly?" statements like this goes A VERY LONG WAY toward blame-the-victim mentality, which goes A VERY LONG WAY toward contributing to rape culture. Would you please both knock it off?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 16:18:27 GMT -5
"NO ONE in their right mind "
Yes, but what percentage of the population do you think are always "in their right mind"?
No one in their right mind would ever sexually harass someone and risk getting fired for it. If massive numbers of men can do things that "no one in their right mind would do"...then don't you think women do too?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:23:28 GMT -5
No one in their right mind would ever sexually harass someone and risk getting fired for it. If massive numbers of men can do things that "no one in their right mind would do"...then don't you think women do too?
I'm not saying that no women ever make false accusations of harassment (or worse) against men. It happens sometimes.
I AM saying that any woman who cries harassment because a male coworker greets her in the hallway has issues, and will probably have a hard time maintaining a job.
Meanwhile, any man that knowingly sexually harasses a woman (more than once; once can be an innocent mistake) is also going to have problems maintaining a job.
Both with good reason.
All other things being equal, women do not claim sexual harassment when a guy says hello to them in the hallway. They just don't. Show me a case where a woman did and I'll bet you anything I own there was more to the story.
And any implication that this is common or that most women who make harassment claims are pretty silly and just need to grow a thicker skin is incredibly sexist. It contributes to the idea that sexual harassment is not that big of a deal, which in turn contributes to rape culture.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:32:08 GMT -5
No one in their right mind would ever sexually harass someone and risk getting fired for it.
Oh, sure they would. Despite this thread, it's pretty uncommon for a guy to actually get fired for sexual harassment - at least, it used to be.
If you're a bad guy (and I'm not accusing anyone on this thread of being a bad guy, just in case that isn't clear - general "you" here), there are plenty of ways to terrorize, provoke, and otherwise harass women that are easy to get away with and extremely difficult to prove. It's fairly easy to make a woman feel unsafe with the artful application of body language and "innocent" remarks, especially if you are smart enough to confine the harassment to situations when you're alone together and make sure nothing can be proven (i.e., harass verbally and not through email or IM).
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 16:32:09 GMT -5
"All other things being equal, women do not claim sexual harassment when a guy says hello to them in the hallway."
Why? Because no one in their right mind would? Simply because you say it doesn't happen?
"And any implication that this is common or that most women who make harassment claims are pretty silly and just need to grow a thicker skin is incredibly sexist."
Then any implication that a man would ever knowingly sexually harass a woman must also be silly and sexist.
Interesting how when men behave badly it's "contributing to a rape culture" and when women behave badly it's "well that doesn't happen, and claims it does are silly and sexist"
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:40:55 GMT -5
"All other things being equal, women do not claim sexual harassment when a guy says hello to them in the hallway."
Why? Because no one in their right mind would? Simply because you say it doesn't happen?
No. Because it doesn't happen, at least not anywhere near often enough to be a legitimate example of the average harassment claim. Show me a case where a woman reported harassment because a male coworker greeted her in the hallway. Unless there was a restraining order in place or the woman in question is not right in the head, that is simply not a claim that anyone would make.
People care about their reputations, women as well as men. Do you realize what saying something like that would do to a woman's reputation? She would quickly (and legitimately) earn a reputation for being a troublemaker. Her male coworkers would be scared to go near her. She would have an awfully hard time keeping her head above water in any kind of job where she had to interact with the opposite sex.
So no, I don't believe that ANY WOMAN would ever claim that a male coworker was sexually harassing her based SOLELY on a hallway greeting without additional context in place. Such as mental illness on the part of the woman OR a history of threats / violence / harassment from the man. For example.
Then any implication that a man would ever knowingly sexually harass a woman must also be silly and sexist.
Interesting how when men behave badly it's "contributing to a rape culture" and when women behave badly it's "well that doesn't happen, and claims it does are silly and sexist"
Um... no? Does the term "false dichotomy" mean anything to you, hoops?
My statement: It is sexist to imply that most women who report harassment are silly and doing so without legitimate reasoning.
Your statement: No man would ever knowingly sexually harass a woman.
Those are not comparable statements in any way, shape or form. Leaving aside the fact that my statement was qualified ("most") and yours was universal ("no man ever"), they relate to two entirely different matters.
I would never say that EVERY man who sexually harasses a woman does so knowingly and with malicious intent. Sometimes it's innocent, and as long as it stops once the guy is called on it, I don't think that he should be punished.
It IS sexist to imply that women usually, or often, or possibly even "sometimes" (depending on context) make false accusations of harassment. And yes, it does contribute to rape culture.
Accusing a man of harassment because he says hello to her in the hallway is unreasonable behavior. Your average harassment claim is not unreasonable, and implying that it is because women are silly liars is a sexist statement.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 16:50:34 GMT -5
"People care about their reputations, women as well as men. Do you realize what saying something like that would do to a woman's reputation? She would quickly (and legitimately) earn a reputation for being a troublemaker. Her male coworkers would be scared to go near her. She would have an awfully hard time keeping her head above water in any kind of job where she had to interact with the opposite sex. "
Substitute man for woman, and change the idea of reporting to the idea of sexual harassing and you make a case that men do not sexually harass women because they care about their reputations and so would not do that.
"Show me a case where a woman reported harassment because a male coworker greeted her in the hallway."
That's the point, how would i show you when most of these accusations are based on "she said this happened, so it must have happened". All of the claims of "he looked at me a certain way, he said it in a certain way, etc...those are all those types of claims.
"It IS sexist to imply that women usually, or often, or even "sometimes" make false accusations of harassment. And yes, it does contribute to rape culture."
It's sexist to imply that men usually, or often, or even "sometimes" sexually harass women.
ETA: My issue is that your argument for why it doesn't happen is "because it just doesn't" followed by another argument about why they logically wouldn't do it...an argument which applies just as logically as to why men wouldn't harass women in the first place. You can't have it both ways. You can't say "because I say so"...and you certainly can't use a logic that "well women are like this, but men aren't" and then call people sexist who point out that you're using completely different standards for men and women.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 25, 2011 16:55:08 GMT -5
Substitute man for woman, and change the idea of reporting to the idea of sexual harassing and you make a case that men do not sexually harass women because they care about their reputations and so would not do that.
I don't get it. Are you saying that reasonable men don't knowingly sexually harass women? Because I don't actually disagree with that statement, believe it or not. And I never said otherwise.
But plenty of men are not reasonable. And I believe I've allowed for the possibility that WOMEN CAN ALSO BE UNREASONABLE. My point is simply that jumping to the conclusion that a woman is being unreasonable because she makes a claim of sexual harassment is sexist behavior.
It's sexist to imply that men usually, or often, or even "sometimes" sexually harass women.
Did I say that? I don't think I said that. Hmm, nope, pretty damn sure I never said ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So I don't really get your point here. I don't understand what you're trying to say OR what you think I'M saying.
All I know is that you're not showing a great deal of comprehension toward my posts.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 25, 2011 16:59:25 GMT -5
Wasn't there a thread just a month or so back about a women who had documented evidence of sexual harrassment, but was hesitant to go to HR because of what it could do to her career? Several posters concurred that she would be labelled a trouble maker and face problems in the future even with the evidence she had.
Maybe I've made things up, but for every claim that goes to HR, I'd guess at least a half a dozen times the women--and men, because let's face it harrasment happens the other way around too--chose to keep silent. As Firebird said--just because there is a possibility of abuse and false accusations, it doesn't mean that every claim is untrue.
WWBG--your ideas of what a women does to be coy, could also be what a person does when they are nervous. You can't always tell from a person's body language. For example: Multiple people have told me that I look super pissed off (including DH who knows me quite well), when I'm really just thinking about the grocery list. If you think a women is being suggestive by certain body language/tone, then isn't it reasonable to assume that men can be suggestive also and make a women uncomfortable through tone and body language?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 25, 2011 17:02:09 GMT -5
"My point is simply that jumping to the conclusion that a woman is being unreasonable because she makes a claim of sexual harassment is sexist behavior. "
I'm ok with that. Just as many women are unreasonable and make bogus fake sexual harassment charges because they're being overly sensitive as men who act unreasonable and commit sexual harrassment.
"Did I say that? I don't think I said that. Hmm, nope, pretty damn sure I never said ANYTHING LIKE THAT. So I don't really get your point here. I don't understand what you're trying to say OR what you think I'M saying. "
Well...there are plenty of sexual harassment claims, you're sayign women just don't make that stuff up, so you must be saying that men sometimes sexually harass women. And I agree with you. What's ridiculous is your claim that it's sexist to imply that women "sometimes" make false allegations of harassment. It's not sexist, it clearly at least "sometimes" happens. I didn't post my version because I thought you said that, I posted it to show how ridiculous your own similarly worded statement was.
Of course it's not sexist to imply that sometimes men sexually harass women...because sometimes it happesn. It's also not sexist to imply that sometimes women make it up, that happens too.
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