Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 17:18:49 GMT -5
I'm fairly low on the totem pole but I do have an area of responsibility with six people reporting to me. One man, five women.
My DF has a much wider sphere of responsibility than I do, and he's not terribly social at work but that was true even before he got to the position he holds today. He's not terribly social by nature, not because he has more responsibility now.
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Post by debtheaven on Apr 27, 2011 17:20:43 GMT -5
*anecdotes*
I just think it's so sad that things have gotten to this point. It wasn't like that here in France, but it's getting there. I can't speak for the corporate world because I never had or even heard of an incident of sexual harassment in my 23 years in the corporate world here.
I don't want to enter the general discussion because I don't have anything to add, but I wanted to share a couple of anecdotes from here.
A former colleague's dad retired early, maybe six years ago? He was a teacher (don't remember what he taught) so he started doing private tutoring to supplement his retirement. My former colleague told me her dad would only give lessons in a public space (ie the LR, DR or kitchen), and only with an adult present. I thought her dad was overly paranoid, and ridiculous.
Two years ago, a cousin who lives near us (technically my ex's cousin but we are still very close) asked me if I could recommend a private math tutor. I said, yes, Mr M's fantastic, he was our local MS math teacher for many years, he retired a few years ago and now works as a private tutor. He lives in the next suburb, he tutored DS1, DS2 and DD, and he still does some hours at the local middle school. So I happily gave Cousin C Mr M's number.
Imagine my surprise when Mr M called me the next day to verify that yes, I really did know Cousin C, and yes, I really did give her his number, and yes, I really have know her for 25 years, before he agreed to tutor her DS. "I know it sounds crazy, but these days, we can't be too careful," he told me. Frankly I was stunned.
I'd still probably think both of these guys were nuts if it hadn't been for something that happened while I was at that horrid MS last spring. I had a mentally-challenged student in my 6th grade class. He was supposed to leave the mainstream system after primary, but his parents insisted that he attempt mainsteam MS. Because he had issues, he was entitled to a personal aide to help him write and to explain his schoolwork (I know there is a term for this but I don't know what it is). Of course she sat next to him in every class she attended with him. He got bitter and twisted about all his friends sitting next to each other, but not him.
So one day he claimed she sexually harrassed him. He was 14, in 6th grade, with the principal and all the teachers doing all they could to keep him till his 15th birthday and go to professional school then (ie he lasted one year in mainstream MS). He was mentally-challenged, obese, not very clean, neither his body nor his hair nor his clothes. He was not always continent either, there were "accidents". His aide was a woman in her mid-40s with three kids who had lost her job as a journalist, her husband (I don't know what he did) was UE.
That's when I realized that my former colleague's dad, and our beloved Mr M were not being ridiculous, they were just being prudent.
Truly, a very sad state of affairs, for many people.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 17:22:37 GMT -5
"Or are we both pretty reasonable to assume that in our corporate culture, there's no one out to get him since we have never seen that happen before and we know we work with good people?"
How do you KNOW you work with good people? You don't think that plenty of people you work with just put on a happy face because they're at work and it's expected of them?
Do you have any idea how many write-ups I get commending me for being a positive individual who's always willing to help out a coworker? For being a hard worker who really cares about the people he works with?
Probably every single person I work with would tell you what a wonderful individual I am to work with, when clearly I'm an asshole. It's because a lot of people you think are "good"...just understand how to hide parts of their personality when at work.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 17:25:40 GMT -5
LOL! You really don't think there's anyone you work with that would happily throw him under the proverbial bus in order to take his job? Your company wouldn't by chance pay all their employees slave wages or something would they? Do I really have to be the first person to ever tell you that people sometimes lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want, or do you somehow think that rule doesn't apply to your coworkers for some reason?
No, Dark, you don't have to be the first person to tell me anything. I just think that if someone was out to get him, going after him for the flowers wouldn't be the most effective way to do that, mostly because NO ONE WOULD BELIEVE YOU. The idea that his appreciative gesture could have been sexual harassment is laughable.
Here's how laughable it is. Let's say he DID somehow sexually harass me when he gave them to me. Let's say he offended me so badly that I felt like I needed to report it. I'd have to think long and hard about whether it was worth going after such a powerful and popular person, and to be honest, I think it would be better if I just quit if I didn't feel safe around him anymore. I cannot imagine anyone taking my word for it if I decided to attack him that way.
And that's if something unequivocal happened when he gave me the flowers, something no one could laugh off if they knew for a fact that it was true. If I tried to use the flowers as the only evidence of a sexual harassment incident, everyone would LAUGH IN MY FACE. So someone else trying to use it as evidence that we were having an affair (or whatever) would be taken even less seriously than that. It would be a pretty transparent attempt to discredit him.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 17:29:54 GMT -5
"If I tried to use the flowers as the only evidence of a sexual harassment incident, everyone would LAUGH IN MY FACE."
The thing that makes this kind of thing so easy though is that you aren't reporting it to your coworkers. You aren't taking a popularity poll. You're reporting it to some random HR person in many cases who does not talk to coworkers because it's "private". They talk to you, they talk to the other person. They talk to witnesses. They don't go around asking coworkers whether they like so-and-so though.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 17:34:35 GMT -5
"I mentioned my dad's refusal to be alone with women outside his immediate family. I personally think that's fine, even a good idea (outside professional situations where you have no choice)"
Why do you think this is a good idea? in 99 instances out of 100 nothing will happen right? I don't understand the logic of thinking it's a good idea to do this, while also trying to argue that women "just aren't like that" which would mean there's nothing to worry about unless your dad was some hormonal monster who couldn't control himself around a woman alone, which seems unlikely.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 17:38:21 GMT -5
My girlfriend tutors and she won't do it alone with the student, either. Public place or her home with the mom present or the student's home with the mom present. She tells the parents why, too.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 17:39:24 GMT -5
My girlfriend tutors and she won't do it alone with the student, either. Public place or her home with the mom present or the student's home with the mom present. She tells the parents why, too. Why? No one would ever make an allegation that wasn't true would they?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 17:40:01 GMT -5
I didn't say the flowers would be used to file a sexual harassment complaint. I said they could be used to fuel rumors that the two of you are an item. That's a lot more likely. People for whatever reason seem to love to gossip at work. A friendly male supervisor getting flowers for a female subordinate doesn't sound like it could be at least a little bit of a bad idea to you? You can't honestly think of any way that the act might be misconstrued by somebody to make it look unprofessional?
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but there's no way in hell I'd have done flowers. A gift card card or something maybe, but not flowers. I also wouldn't do a box of chocolate, or anything else that men traditionally get for women when they're dating. To paraphrase you guys telling us how to socialize, avoid subjects that people might associate with sex, it's not rocket science.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 17:40:44 GMT -5
No point in taking any chances. She's the sole support of her family and tutoring buys groceries for the week. She tutors 3 students, one at her home, one at the student's home and one at the library.
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Post by debtheaven on Apr 27, 2011 17:45:37 GMT -5
Zib, even a girl? Just curious? I tutor too and I am starting to worry about this myself. Hi Hoops Did you read my post? There are "cookamoonias" (my late mom's word) on both side of the Atlantic. ETA: I have two private students, I had four but I "dropped" the two I didn't like / feel comfortable with / weren't committed. One is a 15YO I LOVE and I tutor her in her family LR, the other is an adult doc, she can fend for herself LOL. But I refuse a LOT of private tutoring. Part of it is the hours (I want to be available to my two younger kids when they get home) and part of it is I don't like being locked into a kid's room with the kid, I'm more or less a stranger to them so I'm not comfortable invading their private space, and they generally aren't either. They don't want their mom hanging out in their room for an hour so I'm sure they don't want me hanging out in their room for an hour either. I'm not really interested in working for a family that doesn't get that, it seems pretty basic to me.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 17:47:42 GMT -5
2 boys and a girl. Yes, her rules are set in stone and I think she is smart.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 17:48:07 GMT -5
Don't tutor any child/student alone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 18:05:52 GMT -5
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but there's no way in hell I'd have done flowers. A gift card card or something maybe, but not flowers. I also wouldn't do a box of chocolate, or anything else that men traditionally get for women when they're dating. To paraphrase you guys telling us how to socialize, avoid subjects that people might associate with sex, it's not rocket science.
Maybe under normal circumstances, but it's Admin Professionals Day and they're selling flowers and candy in the lobby of the building. It's not like he went out to a flower store to get them.
I'm thinking about it a bit more and I'm starting to see your point. I still think it's really, really unlikely that someone would use the flowers as evidence of anything other than him being a good guy and wanting to show appreciation, but I see where you're coming from (especially since this exact thing has happened to you). I think it's pretty sad, though.
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Post by debtheaven on Apr 27, 2011 18:16:03 GMT -5
Don't tutor any child/student alone.
This is scary but alas I think it is generally good advice. This said, I would definitely make exceptions for people I feel I know well.
As with everything, one must use common sense. If my 15YO's mom told me the family was repainting their LR / DR, today you're in DD's room, obviously I would not refuse.
As in everything, common sense rules.
This said, I'm glad that when DS2 was in HS and I told him he needed to earn some pocket money, he decided the best bang for his time was to tutor English and math. He did very well for himself in his last two years of HS. At that point all this harassment wasn't even a blip on our screens.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 18:19:21 GMT -5
I think it's pretty sad, though. I agree completely! Like you said yesterday though, whether you agree with the rules or not, they are the rules. I personally think men in supervisory positions have to be especially careful when dealing with female subordinates, so I'd probably skip actual gifts completely. I probably err on the side of too cautious, I freely admit that, but it's usually better to be safe than sorry. I also really am somewhat anti-social anyway, so I wouldn't be the life of the office party even if I wasn't somewhat paranoid about office impropriety or the perception thereof.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 27, 2011 19:20:54 GMT -5
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 27, 2011 19:38:10 GMT -5
If you do a google search and the artist's name, you'll discover that he went through with the implant and then had to restrict it due to privacy concerns.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Apr 28, 2011 12:25:25 GMT -5
Maybe under normal circumstances, but it's Admin Professionals Day and they're selling flowers and candy in the lobby of the building.
Flowers in that situation (or birthdays, etc) is a bit different if all of the other Admins get them too... then it's more of a group gift thing with each manager gifting to their admins as appropriate.
I used to do some administrative work for a manager and while I was a supervising manager myself and not an administrative assistant, he asked if I would be offended if he bought me flowers and lunch (as well as the department secretary) to thank me on administrative professionals day for all of the work I did for him. I responded that I can't imagine anyone being offended by given flowers and a nice lunch, but apparently some people can.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 28, 2011 12:30:52 GMT -5
"Flowers in that situation (or birthdays, etc) is a bit different if all of the other Admins get them too... then it's more of a group gift thing with each manager gifting to their admins as appropriate."
I'm not sure from Firebirds post exactly, but my interpretation was that she got flowers not because she's an administrator, but because it was convenient for her boss to get them because they were downstairs selling them.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Apr 29, 2011 12:01:57 GMT -5
I'm not sure from Firebirds post exactly, but my interpretation was that she got flowers not because she's an administrator, but because it was convenient for her boss to get them because they were downstairs selling them.
My point was that even if she's not an administrator, the fact that other women in the building were receiving flowers as a token of appreciation for doing a good job means that nobody should be raising eyebrows over this person getting flowers too. Lots of managers stretch the spirit of the "holiday" to include anyone who works for them and does things to make their job easier. If he had 2 women working for him and one received flowers and the other didn't then that would be a different story.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 29, 2011 12:30:24 GMT -5
This post highlights how thankful I am to work alone. Thank god I have no direct co-workers! ;D
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Apr 29, 2011 13:24:26 GMT -5
To me this thread highlights how far we have come just in my lifetime. Twenty years ago in my first professional position, I had an older coworker that kept coming up to me and hugging me from the front or behind and rubbing his crotch up against me. I would push him off of me and tell him to leave me alone, but he kept doing it. Eventually I told him if his crotch touched me again it was going to get crushed and then we would see how often he rubbed it against random women. He complained and I got called in and told I had hurt his feelings and I had to be nicer to him. Fortunately he avoided me for a couple years after that and then retired.
This debate has gotten a bit heated about the boundaries of verbal harassment, but it just reminds me how far we have come that the standards no longer allow that kind of physical behavior.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 29, 2011 13:39:21 GMT -5
This debate has gotten a bit heated about the boundaries of verbal harassment, but it just reminds me how far we have come that the standards no longer allow that kind of physical behavior.
BINGO.
People may get pissed off when more stringent guidelines mean that they need to be more careful in their personal conduct, but they tend to overlook the fact that when we lacked such guidelines, women and men (more often women) had NO recourse for this kind of thing and this was not too long ago.
Hell, I'm told it wasn't even all that unusual to get sexually propositioned by your boss for a raise and fired if you didn't go for it. No one even batted an eye.
Tightening standards of behavior in order to protect women AND MEN from this sort of nonsense is the best decision in my book, even if it takes a couple more decades to learn to walk that delicate balance so no one is fired or disciplined over it without legitimate cause.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2011 13:52:20 GMT -5
First off, in our society, anyone can be offended by anything. However, with regards to sexual harrassment, if someone is fired for a truly innocent comment, then they have a heck of a case for wrongful termination because the company did not do due diligence in the matter. Unless the person fired is a supervisor, than the harrassment would fall into the hostile work environment category, which requires multiple factors to be in place before it is considered sexual harrassment. And only one of those factors has to do with how the comment was perceived.
Second, I personally have been sexually harrassed and the man DID get fired for it. I have thick skin and do stand up for myself, but the comments and stares progressed to inappropriate touching and statements that made me fearful of my and other female workers' safety.
I would not wish that kind of attention on ANYONE.
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