Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 10:52:41 GMT -5
But the person who complained was a third party, not either involved party. Does sexual harassment now extend to other parties? If any two people in your company are having a sexual relationship, then every other employee in your company is being sexually harassed? It would be true if they both said they were having consesual sex. I can think of about 6 people that are sleeping together in my current location and we know about it, no biggie. They just can't work in the same department. It became a sexual harrasment when she chocked in front of legal/HR and said that when she went to him and ask how she could keep her job, that is the offer he made. She was worried about her job so she did it. No ones knows if it's true or not. As for now she is suspended and my co-worker was fired.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 22, 2011 10:58:22 GMT -5
The issue is that her review was 'improved' because of her relationship with the higher up. She was no longer in trouble, and also got a raise.
Will anyone ever know if it was consensual, or if she did it entirely to save her job--probably not. If the boss hadn't changed her review, then it would have just been an office fling. Since he did it becomes sexual harrassment.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 22, 2011 10:59:11 GMT -5
<< It became a sexual harrasment when she chocked in front of legal/HR and said that when she went to him and ask how she could keep her job, that is the offer he made. She was worried about her job so she did it. >>
Oh! I thought her boss was complaining because his boss overrode his evaluation of his subordinate because of their relationship.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 22, 2011 11:02:47 GMT -5
What did he do? Nearly anything can be considered harrassment. Even saying hello, good morning, etc., while passing in the corridor can be considered harrassment.
Oh. Come. On. It's obvious you've never experienced real sexual harassment.
Sexual harassment is unwelcome comments about your body, your relationship status (and I'm not talking about, "Oh, your boyfriend seems like a great guy!" I'm talking about, "It's too bad your boyfriend is so possessive and jealous that he won't let you go out with other people / me alone"). It's intense pressure to violate your personal comfort level with professional relationships.
I have a good relationship with all but one of the men with whom I work. And I can assure you, the reasons that the one makes me uncomfortable have NOTHING to do with a friendly greeting in the morning. No reasonable person would consider that any form of harassment unless there was a restraining order in place.
Lucky you that you've never had this experience, but don't dismiss it out of hand considering you don't actually know what it feels like.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 11:05:02 GMT -5
The issue is that her review was 'improved' because of her relationship with the higher up. She was no longer in trouble, and also got a raise. Will anyone ever know if it was consensual, or if she did it entirely to save her job--probably not. If the boss hadn't changed her review, then it would have just been an office fling. Since he did it becomes sexual harassment. Exactly. They could have been dating for a year, kept and under the radar and no one knew. The moment he changed her review which made it possible for her to keep her job it opened the company up for a "sexual harassment" law suit and they will not have that.
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Post by ty on Apr 22, 2011 11:08:38 GMT -5
But the person who complained was a third party, not either involved party. Does sexual harassment now extend to other parties? If any two people in your company are having a sexual relationship, then every other employee in your company is being sexually harassed? Sounds like someone was feeling left out. I don't agree with office romance or any other work related romance. if the two people breakup, then the next thing you have are two people bringing in all their personal issues to the work place. The thing about men needing to think with one head and not the other, well women need to do the same. They need to learn to keep their legs crossed instead of having an open invitation party for every man that walks by. The door swings both ways, and women are just as sexually active as a man, and there are plenty of married women cheating out there too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 22, 2011 11:16:29 GMT -5
I personally don't care if someone is cheating or not (sorry, Lena, but I don't - as cawiau said, it's between them and it's not like I'd call a coworker's spouse to rat out the coworker). I care if it's coercive in nature. When someone is your boss, you really can't be sleeping with them and expect it not to be coercive AND/OR quid-pro-quo in some form. In other words, the fault could be on either side but it's almost impossible not to have SOME fault on at least ONE of the sides, because the power imbalance makes that an untenable situation.
The most ethical thing a boss and subordinate can do if they fall in love (and it does happen) is to immediately come clean to whomever runs the company and ask for the subordinate to be discreetly transferred. Messy, yes, but any other decision is the wrong decision. And a ridiculously stupid risk for the boss to be taking, male or female.
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Mad Dawg Wiccan
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Post by Mad Dawg Wiccan on Apr 22, 2011 11:24:34 GMT -5
What did he do? Nearly anything can be considered harrassment. Even saying hello, good morning, etc., while passing in the corridor can be considered harrassment. Oh. Come. On. It's obvious you've never experienced real sexual harassment. Sexual harassment is unwelcome comments about your body, your relationship status (and I'm not talking about, "Oh, your boyfriend seems like a great guy!" I'm talking about, "It's too bad your boyfriend is so possessive and jealous that he won't let you go out with other people / me alone"). It's intense pressure to violate your personal comfort level with professional relationships. I have a good relationship with all but one of the men with whom I work. And I can assure you, the reasons that the one makes me uncomfortable have NOTHING to do with a friendly greeting in the morning. No reasonable person would consider that any form of harassment unless there was a restraining order in place. Lucky you that you've never had this experience, but don't dismiss it out of hand considering you don't actually know what it feels like. When I worked in Engineering at a hospital, we had a guy who was a long-term temporary with us. He was the nicest person and worked extra hard because he was hoping to be made permanent. One day he was working on something in (believe it or not) the HR office and the secretary asked him, "Don't you need a special tool to work on that"? He replied, "My tool does everything", referring to his Leatherman multi-tool. The secretary filed a sexual harassment complaint with her supervisor, and despite protests from the entire department he was fired by the end of the day. The official reason given was that the temp position was no longer needed, but everybody knew it was BS because we had another temp the next week. After that, any work requests from HR were given bottom priority by us.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 11:24:45 GMT -5
[Exactly. They could have been dating for a year, kept and under the radar and no one knew. The moment he changed her review which made it possible for her to keep her job it opened the company up for a "sexual harassment" law suit and they will not have that. I agree. And Petunia, no, it doesn't mean the whole company was being "sexually harrassed". It just means that one employee had the rules bent for her because of a sexual relationship with her boss' boss. How would you feel if you gave someone what you believed to be a fair and honest "clean up your act" review, only to have it overridden by your manager in return for sexual favors from the employee? I would lose all respect for my boss and would be on the alert that any other decisions he made might be driven not by company policy or sound business judgment but, as cawiau would put it, "thinking with the wrong head".
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 22, 2011 11:34:03 GMT -5
Mad Dawg, some companies have become so paranoid that they've started to blow every little thing like that out of proportion. You know what the alternative is? Women being laughed off when they have legitimate complaints. The only way to actively practice a safe workspace is to take every single complaint seriously, follow up on it and take appropriate action, no matter how silly it seems.
Now, yes, in the situation you describe it certainly sounds like they overreacted. And perhaps the girl should have just let it go. But here are a few things to keep in mind before you decide that incident was bullshit:
1) We don't know the history between these two. It's possible that this guy was making inappropriate comments before and she'd been documenting them, and this particular one was the last straw - and it's the only one people heard about because it's the one that got him fired. Kind of like you hear about an incident of one kid punching another kid in school, but you're a lot less likely to hear about the incidents of bullying that led up to it.
2) Regardless of what you THINK he was referring to when he made that comment, unless you were there you don't know how that comment was intended. There are plenty of ways to say that short sentence that are more than capable of making someone feel uncomfortable. If the person I mentioned at my workplace who I have felt uncomfortable with in the past said that to me, and sounded suggestive when he said it, damn straight I'd report it.
3) It's entirely possible that it was an innocent comment and the employee overreacted, resulting in an unjust firing.
4) More women than you can possibly imagine have been shut down and silenced when they experienced sexual harassment at work because they knew or thought that they wouldn't be taken seriously. The fact that these claims are taken more seriously now is a GOOD thing.
5) #4 does not excuse #3, if in fact #3 is actually the case here. Unjust accusations are a Bad Thing. Allowing women to be harassed and not taking their reports seriously is also a Bad Thing. The current corporate climate is trying to find a middle ground. It's not an easy thing to do. But the solution is not to immediately dismiss stories that SOUND slanted against the guy.
6) Due to #4, it is very risky for a woman to report sexual harassment at work. Most women (I didn't say all, I said MOST) would not do so without legitimate reason. You run the risk of being labeled a troublemaker, oversensitive, silly, and a whole bunch of other negative things, especially if the person you're accusing is well-liked at the company. If you are a reasonable person, you don't risk that over a "could have been innocent" comment. You risk that over an "over the line, no question" comment - if then.
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sil
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Post by sil on Apr 22, 2011 11:36:25 GMT -5
In a way, I'd agree that the whole company is being "sexually harassed"
At least where I work, not every employee gets a raise every year, and there is a finite amount of dollars to be divided out amongst each team of employees.
So who's really "harrassed" due to this sexual quid pro quo? Everyone else....the woman who is not willing to sleep the boss' boss, and the man who doesn't have the opportunity to. The additional salary that went to this woman because of favors, was not distributed to the rest of her team.
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dragon2008
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Post by dragon2008 on Apr 22, 2011 11:52:47 GMT -5
When the subordinate is giving up sexual favors for work favors or special treatment - a job, promotion or raise - that isn't based on the quality or ability of the work, then it is unfair to those co-workers who are actually doing the job without bl*wing the boss. So yeah, sexual harrassment does affect others in the workplace. I also see it as a lack of control and personal discipline from the boss, which isn't good for business.
It really isn't about cheating on the spouse or breaking personal vows, which is a whole other kettle of fish. This is about fairness in the workplace.
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mithrin
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Post by mithrin on Apr 22, 2011 12:21:08 GMT -5
Given what OP has told us about the situation, I think the company is spot on with it's response. There are basically three scenarios that could have gone down here: 1. Woman goes to boss to ask for reconsideration of review and boss pressures her into sex in exchange for a better review. 2. Woman goes to boss, but it is her that offers the sexual favors, which the boss accepts and changes her review. 3. The two could have been already involved, and the supervisor either realized it b/c of the review, or already knew of the affair, but felt compelled to tell HR because of the review change.
What really happened is probably some variation of one of these 3. Now if it's #2, then the woman should also be fired since she was the one to offer sex for favors. Likely if it was #3, firing the woman would also be justified, as it would be very likely that she used her relationship to influence the boss to change her review--and at the very least she was involved with a superior and didn't inform HR. If #1, then the woman shouldn't be fired for the sexual harassment (though her poor performance is another issue).
OTOH, no matter what happened, the boss should be fired. Either he pressured someone into giving sex for favors, accepted the offer of sex for favors, or showed preferential treatment to his ongoing mistress. He is really only guilty of instigating sexual harassment in #1, but in all 3 he is selling the interests of the company out in exchange for sex, which is reason enough to can him.
So the company response is spot-on. Fire the boss, since there is no scenario that makes him someone you want to keep on. Putting the woman on suspension is good because there is a scenario where she is a victim of harassment, though there are others where she plays an active role and should be let go. If they decide that #1 is probably what really happened, I hope that they keep her on (without the raise), and postpone the decision to fire her for performance issues until the next evaluation. They don't want to send the message that being the victim of harassment also gets you fired. Another reason to delay firing the woman over the performance eval is that it's possible that her supervisor gave the bad review because they knew of an ongoing affair between the employee and super's boss, and gave the bad review in response to that.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 22, 2011 13:44:44 GMT -5
I'm a little bothered by the title of this thread, if only because he was not the only stupid one in this situation. She should have known it was inappropriate work behavior as well, and unless she didn't know that he was married with children, she also bears some responsibility in the cheating.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 13:53:57 GMT -5
I agree and yes, men and women really are that stupid.
eta: When I was in college I worked as a temp in an office and I was harassed. Unless you have experienced true harassment, don't be so quick to dismiss it SF.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 22, 2011 14:15:54 GMT -5
<< It just means that one employee had the rules bent for her because of a sexual relationship with her boss' boss. How would you feel if you gave someone what you believed to be a fair and honest "clean up your act" review, only to have it overridden by your manager in return for sexual favors from the employee? >>
I wouldn't like it at all. I didn't say I thought it was peachy-fine, I said I thought it wasn't sexual harassment. Lots of unethical things aren't sexual harassment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 14:16:54 GMT -5
She should have known it was inappropriate work behavior as well, and unless she didn't know that he was married with children, she also bears some responsibility in the cheating. I agree. mithrin mentioned a possible scenario in which she was a "victim"- I'd say that as soon as she agreed to trading sexual favors for treatment she didn't deserve (an upgraded review and a salary increase), she became an accomplice. I'd narrow the "victim" scenario down to one in which someone is pressured to exchange sexual favors for something they should get anyway- the ability to keep their job, a fair shot at promotion, etc. That wasn't the case here.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2011 14:24:31 GMT -5
It became a sexual harrasment when she chocked in front of legal/HR and said that when she went to him and ask how she could keep her job, that is the offer he made. She was worried about her job so she did it
Petuina if she said this to HR, HR has to treat it as a sexual harassment case even if they think that she did it willingly.
If they don't they open themselves up to a potential lawsuit.
My employee handbook has in it they have to treat all sexual harassment claims seriously. If I claim harassment they have to investigate it.
So it doesn't matter if I know I willingly slept with the boss what matters is I filed a sexual harassment claim with HR.
It sounds like either way the boss would be fired. Whether she gets fired it sounds like that depends on what the investigation by HR turns up.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Apr 22, 2011 15:03:18 GMT -5
What matters is if it's brought to HRs attention AND if the investigation determines that the harassment actually happened. I'm kinda surprised they fired anyone without an investigation of some sort.
I can make a claim of sexual harrasment (or verbal or physical harrasment) against someone at the office - but that doesn't mean they will be fired 20 minutes later...
Although, the Policy Manual does say that being drunk or other otherwise under the influence of drugs at work will get you an immediate termination (I suspect that selling drugs or using drugs in the office will result in the same). Bringing a firearm or other weapon to work will result in immediate termination as well. Being in a fight (anything that requires security) will also result in immediate termination.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2011 15:05:28 GMT -5
I assumed he was immeadietly fired due to sleeping with an employee who worked under him.
Or fired for alterting her performance review.
That he's being investigated for harassment is a "bonus".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 15:11:57 GMT -5
I can make a claim of sexual harrassment (or verbal or physical harrassment) against someone at the office - but that doesn't mean they will be fired 20 minutes later... It's possible that proof that you sent a photo of your private parts to a subordinate (I'm assuming there were electronic links to the boss' computer or e-mail so they could trace it) might get you thrown out quickly.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Apr 22, 2011 15:23:33 GMT -5
At my employer if you send any picture with nudity using their computer/phone/email system it is immediate dismissal. It doesn't matter if it is to your subordinate or coworker, or even if you email it to your spouse at home. We get a disclaimer to that effect every time we log in to the network.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 22, 2011 15:25:42 GMT -5
We get a disclaimer to that effect every time we log in to the network. Makes you wonder how many people did it before they issued a disclaimer doesn't it? You would think it'd be obvious that sending nudie photos from your work computer is a dumb idea.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 22, 2011 15:41:22 GMT -5
We get a disclaimer to that effect every time we log in to the network. Makes you wonder how many people did it before they issued a disclaimer doesn't it? You would think it'd be obvious that sending nudie photos from your work computer is a dumb idea. Lol, yes, one would think.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Apr 22, 2011 15:53:55 GMT -5
It's like that saying, common sense really isn't that common?
Based on experiences with some of the users that I have to deal with at work, I'd say that a lot of them are pretty clueless about what's appropriate on company property. Which reminds me of the hilarious "The Website Is Down" videos. Here's part 1:
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suziq38
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Post by suziq38 on Apr 22, 2011 16:49:33 GMT -5
I think that the guy was just plain stupid.
Maybe young and immature.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 17:35:13 GMT -5
I must be stupid as well bc if two adults are sending naked pics of themselves to each other, "harassment" is not what comes to mind. Lena It is when it is combined with an improved performance review.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2011 20:34:55 GMT -5
I'm a little bothered by the title of this thread, if only because he was not the only stupid one in this situation. She should have known it was inappropriate work behavior as well, and unless she didn't know that he was married with children, she also bears some responsibility in the cheating. I fail to see how it is her responsibly to keep him from "cheating" or how his marital status has any effect on any of this:other than it is another part of his life he is trashing..... If she was forced into this to save her job - then he is the only guilty party. If she was less than innocent, he is still the majority guilty in terms of his job and 100% in terms of the marriage. exactly. The man is the one who took the vows - not the woman.
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Apr 23, 2011 21:43:06 GMT -5
Wow, talk about a sexist post! Imagine if I had written a thread called "Are women really the STUPID?"
At least this initial post is extremely light on FACTS! You never stated what he did (or were accused of doing). Yet you feel free to condemn him.
Anyway, time to respond and I am specifically going to dial up the sexism to match the original post.
Seriously... start thinking with your big head, not the little one.
Only if women stop thinking with their hormones.
This guy is freaking married with 3 kids. Freaking idiot! Now you are out of a job, 3 kids to support and your wife might be leaving your ass.
Why would his wife leave him? Did she not vow "for better or worse" and "for richer or for poorer." Can only MEN be trusted to keep their word?
My job has a zero tolerance for sexual harassment and he is the 4th person (that I know of, might be more since I work for a big company) in the past two years I have been with this company that got fired for it.
Why is there a zero tolerance policy about sexual harrasment, especially when sexual harrassment is so ill defined? In some states and businesses, the victim needs only *feel* he or she was harrased and it's enough. No reason or logic.
Is asking someone out for a date sexual harrasment? Or telling an off color joke? To some, it is.
Don't people get: don't shit were you eat!
Good idea! Or course it might be even smarter to work for a semi-sane company or even work in a place that is mostly male since *clearly* women are weak and overly sensitive creatures who faint over if one of those barbaric men glance their way!
First: No means No
I tried saying no to the IRS, they didn't listen either. Sucks, eh?
Second: if you want to cheat on your wife/husband that is your business, but why put your job at risk? Even worse, legal issues. Do people need to get laid that bad? What? 5-30 minutes of pleasure worth it?
I'm much longer than a 5-30 minutes! During sex, I have people passing me cups of water!
;D
Anyway, gonna end here and get some sleep. I still love ya Cawiau and I did intentionally go over the top. I just don't like the sexism in your OP. Also, I got hit once with a sexual harrasment charge at work. What did I do? Well after getting turned down for a date, I later invited her to join to go with several mutual friends to a concert.
After that, you'd think it was the Spanish inquistion. I was popular with the women and they would often talk to me about their lives, including their romance, and I'd just listen. Yeah, back in my nice guy days. This was used as "proof" that I was harrassing women since these women who volunteered their personal information I was now grilling. Oh and no one stepped up to answer the charges: their fear of losing their jobs if they contradicted the general manager overcame any sense of honor or decency.
Great lesson: don't trust people to do the right thing.
I evaded it, immediately stopped socializing with anyone there, and went back to school. I ran into the General Manager last year for Christmas: dude is a broken man (low pay, wife divorced him, and he's dying of prostate cancer).
KARMA IS A BEAR! Still, I was nice and let him drive my nice new sporty car during his break. I just didn't have the heart to tear hm a new one. I'm a saint that way!
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ameiko
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Post by ameiko on Apr 23, 2011 21:47:46 GMT -5
deleted by Ameiko
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