Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,545
|
Post by Tennesseer on Aug 14, 2017 9:31:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't have gone either, Tennesseer , because I think that going is giving those...people...the attention they are craving. I don't doubt that many of the counter-demonstrators did not go there to fight. Many of them did. There are pics all over the internet of the counter-protestors beating the hell out of people. They came to fight. They got what they asked for and now somebody is dead and lots of people are injured. It's just such a waste. I mean...I get standing up against evil. I do and I think we have to. Lots of people have died standing up to evil and I suppose that is the price we pay to keep evil at bay. But let's concentrate on that and not what somebody did or didn't utter.
Trump said this and didn't do it. Trump said that and didn't do it. It's not like that's a new thing with his Presidency. It happens in every single Presidency. Every single one. Candidates say a lot of things in their campaigns that people with half a brain know they won't accomplish. I wish that weren't true, but it is. We can't act like this is something new and be taken seriously.
And I don't know why people think he isn't standing up. If it's because he didn't utter some exact words people want...tough shit. I don't care. I care what is done about. We have yet to see what that is.
Addressing the highlighted: so did the white nationalists and KKK and other right wing fringe groups. Don't put all this all fighting on the counter-protestors.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 14, 2017 9:38:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't have gone either, Tennesseer , because I think that going is giving those...people...the attention they are craving. I don't doubt that many of the counter-demonstrators did not go there to fight. Many of them did. There are pics all over the internet of the counter-protestors beating the hell out of people. They came to fight. They got what they asked for and now somebody is dead and lots of people are injured. It's just such a waste. I mean...I get standing up against evil. I do and I think we have to. Lots of people have died standing up to evil and I suppose that is the price we pay to keep evil at bay. But let's concentrate on that and not what somebody did or didn't utter.
Trump said this and didn't do it. Trump said that and didn't do it. It's not like that's a new thing with his Presidency. It happens in every single Presidency. Every single one. Candidates say a lot of things in their campaigns that people with half a brain know they won't accomplish. I wish that weren't true, but it is. We can't act like this is something new and be taken seriously.
And I don't know why people think he isn't standing up. If it's because he didn't utter some exact words people want...tough shit. I don't care. I care what is done about. We have yet to see what that is.
Addressing the highlighted: so did the white nationalists and KKK and other right wing fringe groups. Don't put all this all fighting on the counter-protestors. I didn't. I put, in my first post, that both sides came to fight. Since you only addressed the counter-demonstrators in your post, that is all I replied to.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 11:29:30 GMT -5
You know as well as I do that nobody on the opposite site of the aisle agrees with this statement (present company included), which explains 95% of our difference of opinion on whether Pres. Trump's refusal to point fingers is acceptable. It's not just BLM, either. It's the "antifa" thugs, "bird doggers", New Black Panthers, and dozens of other left-leaning groups the previous administration refused to condemn for political reasons. With the precedents and political climate as it is, the odds of getting a specific condemnation from Pres. Trump are next to nil, nor is anyone right of center going to fault the man for speaking in generalities. They're simply going to conclude you're blind or hypocritical. Whether or not they agree is irrelevant. They are wrong if they disagree with that statement. BLM has many factions, and is certainly not perfect. But their reason d'etre is not racial dominance and subjugation of others. The groups converging on Charlottesville, including the American Nazi Party and the KKK do exist for those reasons. Case closed. If the entire right side of the aisle wishes to defend those groups. so be it. I will defend BLM in this matter, because the accusation is false. In fact, they shouldn't even be part of this discussion. This doubles as a response to Opti's post. Part of the confusion here is that jkapp and myself are using BLM as an umbrella term to describe the many groups that have endorsed that general movement. As I stipulated in my previous post, this includes the black hat affiliates--specifically the ones who've disturbed the peace in the name of BLM. Whether we call the perpetrators of mayhem "BLM" is semantics. The relevant fact is that Pres. Obama, whose conduct was deemed acceptable by you (hence his featuring here), deliberately avoided pointing fingers and condemning the radical elements of the movement. He never said anything remotely to the effect of "Black nationalism is dangerous. Black-on-black crime and black-on-white crime are statistically far greater problems than white-on-black crime. Michael Brown was a lawless thug. Leftist rioters burned down Ferguson. Al Sharpton and Jeremiah Wright are race baiters." It was always general condemnation of the violence, acknowledgement of grievances on both sides, and calls for peace and unity. As you know, it frustrated the American right to no end. Now the shoe is on the other foot and it seems some here can finally appreciate that frustration. Personally I understood why Pres. Obama acted as he did and I likewise understand why Pres. Trump is speaking in generalities. He wants to avoid appearing as though he doesn't care about icons of the American South being purged from the public eye for sake of political correctness. He doesn't want to send a message to tens of millions of Americans: "I don't care about your culture and your history being purged." Unfortunately, the political climate being what it is, condemning white supremacy will be interpreted as condemning the protestors (not to mention smearing the protestors as white supremacists), which in turn will be interpreted as Pres. Trump's endorsement of expunging Confederate icons. Even if the two aren't closely related, they can't be separated in this case. If you're angry because you believe Pres. Trump ought to endorse expunging Confederate icons, then I have no sympathy for you. I have zero tolerance for political correctness. If the left wants a culture war, more power to Pres. Trump if he's on the enemy side.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 11:33:19 GMT -5
Obama could have done a much better job in addressing the more radical fringes of the BLM movement.
Trump got elected partially because "he is not afraid to tell it like it is" and "he is not beholden to anyone" and he's not a politician." If he's such a straight shooting guy, why is it so hard for him to say "mmmm racism bad, mmmkay?"
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,115
Location: Maryland
Member is Online
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Aug 14, 2017 11:42:28 GMT -5
How can you equate BLM to a neo Nazi hate group? There are some violent people in BLM, but the KKK is all about hating anyone who isn't a white Christian and hanging all others.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 11:50:14 GMT -5
If he's such a straight shooting guy, why is it so hard for him to say "mmmm racism bad, mmmkay?" Because, for reasons I've already given, it's not politically expedient. Suppose he says "Racism bad." at 1:00 PM today. By 3:30 the headlines in the alt-rightosphere read "Pres. Trump: 'Defend a Statue, You're a Racist'". This will be followed up by endless criticism and commentary about why Pres. Trump didn't rail against racism when [insert incidence of anti-white racism here], and it will only get worse from there. He's not a terribly bright man, but he knows enough not to commit political suicide. Give him a break on this one.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 11:52:26 GMT -5
If he's such a straight shooting guy, why is it so hard for him to say "mmmm racism bad, mmmkay?" Because, for reasons I've already given, it's not politically expedient. Suppose he says "Racism bad." at 1:00 PM today. By 3:30 the headlines in the alt-rightosphere read "Pres. Trump: 'Defend a Statue, You're a Racist'". This will be followed up by endless criticism and commentary about why Pres. Trump didn't rail against racism when [insert incidence of anti-white racism here], and it will only get worse from there. He's not a terribly bright man, but he knows enough not to commit political suicide. Give him a break on this one. Absolutely not.
He's bright enough to know that the toothless pasty yahoos at these rallies support him and he's not going to alienate them.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 11:54:06 GMT -5
How can you equate BLM to a neo Nazi hate group? There are some violent people in BLM, but the KKK is all about hating anyone who isn't a white Christian and hanging all others. If you can't be bothered to read my posts, I won't be bothered to answer your questions.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 11:55:04 GMT -5
Absolutely not.
He's bright enough to know that the toothless pasty yahoos at these rallies support him and he's not going to alienate them.
He just specifically called out the KKK, neo nazis and others. Good. It took him long enough, but I applaud his statement (I haven't heard it yet, I reserve decision to retract my applause ).
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 12:02:34 GMT -5
Because, for reasons I've already given, it's not politically expedient. Suppose he says "Racism bad." at 1:00 PM today. By 3:30 the headlines in the alt-rightosphere read "Pres. Trump: 'Defend a Statue, You're a Racist'". This will be followed up by endless criticism and commentary about why Pres. Trump didn't rail against racism when [insert incidence of anti-white racism here], and it will only get worse from there. He's not a terribly bright man, but he knows enough not to commit political suicide. Give him a break on this one. Absolutely not.
He's bright enough to know that the toothless pasty yahoos at these rallies support him and he's not going to alienate them.
Them and millions more. Other than that, we agree. Incidentally, "white trash coons" is 5 characters less than "toothless pasty yahoos" and conveys the same bigotry-free spirit. You'll save on bandwidth charges.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 14, 2017 12:07:21 GMT -5
Well? He's said what people thought he should say. Rightly so, I believe. So how long before we hear, "Well...it's too late."?
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 14, 2017 12:12:17 GMT -5
I'm stunned.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Aug 14, 2017 12:16:30 GMT -5
When he removes Gorka (who wore a Nazi badge to the inauguration), Bannon ( who ran a race hating/baiting website) and Stephen Miller (another known white supremacist) then he's just paying lip service too little, too late. His white (supremacist) house is full of Nazis. Start with those 3 and then maybe, I'll believe he means what he says.
And he has still spend more time attacking the same type of terror attack in London than he did decrying Nazis killing a woman in the US. He still didn't call it what it was, a terrorist attack by Nazis & KKK on US soil.
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,115
Location: Maryland
Member is Online
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Aug 14, 2017 12:26:20 GMT -5
How can you equate BLM to a neo Nazi hate group? There are some violent people in BLM, but the KKK is all about hating anyone who isn't a white Christian and hanging all others. If you can't be bothered to read my posts, I won't be bothered to answer your questions. You mean making BLM your umbrella term? Why not call those violent factions radical BLM. I'm not reading all your posts until your book comes out. I have other things to do here.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 12:35:45 GMT -5
Absolutely not.
He's bright enough to know that the toothless pasty yahoos at these rallies support him and he's not going to alienate them.
Them and millions more. Other than that, we agree. Incidentally, "white trash coons" is 5 characters less than "toothless pasty yahoos" and conveys the same bigotry-free spirit. You'll save on bandwidth charges. coon is a slur against black people. Not sure how someone would be white trash coons.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 12:49:21 GMT -5
|
|
ken a.k.a OMK
Senior Associate
They killed Kenny, the bastards.
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 14:39:20 GMT -5
Posts: 14,115
Location: Maryland
Member is Online
|
Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Aug 14, 2017 12:51:02 GMT -5
Yahoo is the mascot of UVA.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 14:35:05 GMT -5
Them and millions more. Other than that, we agree. Incidentally, "white trash coons" is 5 characters less than "toothless pasty yahoos" and conveys the same bigotry-free spirit. You'll save on bandwidth charges. coon is a slur against black people. Not sure how someone would be white trash coons. Hinting that if you don't consider "coons" an appropriate way to refer to black people--of any background--you oughn't consider "toothless pasty yahoos" an appropriate way to refer to white people--of any background. Be the change you want to see in other people.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,335
|
Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2017 14:48:34 GMT -5
coon is a slur against black people. Not sure how someone would be white trash coons. Hinting that if you don't consider "coons" an appropriate way to refer to black people--of any background--you oughn't consider "toothless pasty yahoos" an appropriate way to refer to white people--of any background. Be the change you want to see in other people. A yahoo is a uneducated hick. Res Ipsa Loquitor.
And all the guys did look pretty pale.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Aug 14, 2017 16:39:36 GMT -5
When he removes Gorka (who wore a Nazi badge to the inauguration), Bannon ( who ran a race hating/baiting website) and Stephen Miller (another known white supremacist) then he's just paying lip service too little, too late. His white (supremacist) house is full of Nazis. Start with those 3 and then maybe, I'll believe he means what he says. And he has still spend more time attacking the same type of terror attack in London than he did decrying Nazis killing a woman in the US. He still didn't call it what it was, a terrorist attack by Nazis & KKK on US soil. You forgot Sessions, who was deemed "too racist to be a federal judge." Sessions: Man once deemed too racist to be judge set for confirmation as Trump's Attorney General www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jeff-sessions-donald-trump-attorney-general-confirmed-racist-a7568846.htmlTrump sure loves to surround himself with the lowest of the low.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:52:32 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 16:46:27 GMT -5
I didn't love bush jr. Not like, at all. But I respected him most afte 9/11, how he conducted himself and what he said and I was willing to see how he continued to respond.
So dont say nothing T said could have been heard.
If you read widely, it's no one group or side or even country calling him out over this...
Yea, he finally called out groups. Then added all hate groups, then added he's seriously thinking of pardoning Joe Apario... which is pretty much a wink and a 'see I'm just kidding' to the racists in base.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 17:42:58 GMT -5
Hinting that if you don't consider "coons" an appropriate way to refer to black people--of any background--you oughn't consider "toothless pasty yahoos" an appropriate way to refer to white people--of any background. Be the change you want to see in other people. A yahoo is a uneducated hick. Res Ipsa Loquitor.
And all the guys did look pretty pale.
I'm sure they have all kinds of rationalizations for the slurs they use too.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Aug 14, 2017 17:49:30 GMT -5
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2017 18:04:16 GMT -5
|
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Aug 15, 2017 17:45:48 GMT -5
How can you equate BLM to a neo Nazi hate group? There are some violent people in BLM, but the KKK is all about hating anyone who isn't a white Christian and hanging all others. Well BLM is mostly a liberal (or even progressive liberal) group. And Liberals are all about hating anyone that doesn't believe exactly as they do. If you don't fall in line by agreeing with every tenet of liberal ideology, then you are labeled a "racist" or a "sexist" or a "homophobe", etc, etc. If you try to give a speech that goes against any liberal ideology, they shout you down or try to force the speech not to happen. They claim to be open-minded yet do their best to censor out anything that opposes their viewpoints. And this is what really chaps my ass about all this type of stuff. These counter-protestors, the BLM groups, the 99%'ers, and all these other liberal groups are NOT peaceful groups. They are incredibly violent to anyone that doesn't toe the line. They destroy property, block off streets, block off businesses, hurt and even kill people. I'm sick of hearing about these "peaceful" protests that constantly end up becoming massive violent demonstrations, that then get blamed on anyone and anything else except these NON peaceful groups. And when they do show up to "counter-protest" something, all they do is end up giving the movements they don't like a bigger audience. If these counter-protestors had not shown up to this rally over the weekend, would many people even have known about it? I only heard about it because of the violence and killing that happened. If none of that had happened, then this rally would have been a dud of an event. But now this Alt-Right group has evidence of not only people trying to silence their opinions (first-amendment rights) but also the media trying to coerce people in power to speak out against them. This not only emboldens their current membership but will probably give them even more support down the road. It was an intensely stupid move on the part of the counter-protestors...but they can't help their need to stir up some shit. Its their violent nature showing through.
|
|
Gardening Grandma
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
Posts: 17,962
|
Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 15, 2017 17:57:14 GMT -5
How can you equate BLM to a neo Nazi hate group? There are some violent people in BLM, but the KKK is all about hating anyone who isn't a white Christian and hanging all others. Well BLM is mostly a liberal (or even progressive liberal) group. And Liberals are all about hating anyone that doesn't believe exactly as they do. If you don't fall in line by agreeing with every tenet of liberal ideology, then you are labeled a "racist" or a "sexist" or a "homophobe", etc, etc. If you try to give a speech that goes against any liberal ideology, they shout you down or try to force the speech not to happen. They claim to be open-minded yet do their best to censor out anything that opposes their viewpoints. And this is what really chaps my ass about all this type of stuff. These counter-protestors, the BLM groups, the 99%'ers, and all these other liberal groups are NOT peaceful groups. They are incredibly violent to anyone that doesn't toe the line. They destroy property, block off streets, block off businesses, hurt and even kill people. I'm sick of hearing about these "peaceful" protests that constantly end up becoming massive violent demonstrations, that then get blamed on anyone and anything else except these NON peaceful groups. And when they do show up to "counter-protest" something, all they do is end up giving the movements they don't like a bigger audience. If these counter-protestors had not shown up to this rally over the weekend, would many people even have known about it? I only heard about it because of the violence and killing that happened. If none of that had happened, then this rally would have been a dud of an event. But now this Alt-Right group has evidence of not only people trying to silence their opinions (first-amendment rights) but also the media trying to coerce people in power to speak out against them. This not only emboldens their current membership but will probably give them even more support down the road. It was an intensely stupid move on the part of the counter-protestors...but they can't help their need to stir up some shit. Its their violent nature showing through. I love this board. I can come here and be told I hate anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do... And I would point out that the Women's March involved millions of people without a single arrest. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it?
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 15, 2017 18:27:31 GMT -5
And I would point out that the Women's March involved millions of people without a single arrest.Sure, but it's hard to work up a violent fury when you have no idea what you're protesting.
|
|
Gardening Grandma
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
Posts: 17,962
|
Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 15, 2017 19:36:07 GMT -5
And I would point out that the Women's March involved millions of people without a single arrest.Sure, but it's hard to work up a violent fury when you have no idea what you're protesting. Just because YOU had no idea what we were protesting d oesn't mean WE didn't.....
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on Aug 15, 2017 23:50:33 GMT -5
So it was a Liberal who rammed car into the crowd in Charlotte, killed one and hurt nineteen others in Charlotte? I had no idea!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 16, 2017 0:38:43 GMT -5
Obama could have done a much better job in addressing the more radical fringes of the BLM movement.
Trump got elected partially because "he is not afraid to tell it like it is" and "he is not beholden to anyone" and he's not a politician." If he's such a straight shooting guy, why is it so hard for him to say "mmmm racism bad, mmmkay?"
But many people on this very board, the same people blasting trump, were the same people saying Obama handled it well. We can't have double standards I'm not a hypocrite so I think trump should call out all hate groups. I do think everyone that showed up looking to fight is to blame for what went down. Not the woman that was murdered, but for all of the violence. The liberals want to pretend that the radical left didn't show up looking for blood. They are not innocent in this. ETA: and before I again get accused of being racist, I think anyone spewing hatred is an awful human being. Difference is I'm not about to go counter-protest. The best way to deal with these radical fringe groups is to ignore then. Unless it turns violent then the police/national guard need to rush in and squash it. I feel that way regardless of what group of idiots is doing the protesting.
|
|