moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Feb 20, 2013 7:55:01 GMT -5
Is there a legal definition for hostile work environment? Is there a discrimination charge based on nepotism? I can fill in the details later...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 20, 2013 8:17:30 GMT -5
Yes, I was there, management knew and did nothing. I'd have been the one fired or punished for taking any steps. Once you know that, you have to decide if its worth it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 8:41:04 GMT -5
Is there a legal definition for hostile work environment? Is there a discrimination charge based on nepotism? I can fill in the details later... Some things are clear cut. coworker A and coworker B tell none stop sex jokes. Manager A looks the other way. It bothers you so much that is impacts your desire to work or makes you look for other employment. That is clear cut. coworker A and coworker B tell G rated jokes. Manager A says, "hey, these are G rated jokes". You disagree and are offended. Not clear cut, a jury would make the call. To you more direct change based on nepotism? Way too vague.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 20, 2013 9:21:44 GMT -5
A hostile work environment is one in which a boss, coworker, or others make doing your job impossible. The actions or behavior must also discriminate against one of the protected classes (age, race, disability, religion, sexual orientation (in some states)). So in the recent case of the farting coworker - unless he was only farting on the old people, or minorities, no HWE there, even if it substantially interfered with others' ability to do their jobs.
It's a pretty hefty requirement - although the term is thrown around a lot, not many cases actually rise to the definition of HWE.
There are very few laws against nepotism.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2013 15:12:34 GMT -5
Is there a legal definition for hostile work environment? Is there a discrimination charge based on nepotism? I can fill in the details later... Some things are clear cut. coworker A and coworker B tell none stop sex jokes. Manager A looks the other way. It bothers you so much that is impacts your desire to work or makes you look for other employment. That is clear cut. coworker A and coworker B tell G rated jokes. Manager A says, "hey, these are G rated jokes". You disagree and are offended. Not clear cut, a jury would make the call. To you more direct change based on nepotism? Way too vague. Some things are clear cut. coworker A and coworker B tell none stop sex jokes. You tell the manager A you are uncomfortable with the sex jokes. Manager A looks the other way. The sex jokes continue. You again go to manager A and tell him the sex jokes make you uncomfortable. Manager A again looks the other way. It bothers you so much that is impacts your desire to work or makes you look for other employment. That is clear cut. Bold type is mine. It can also be considered sexual harassment if coworkers A and B if you or a manager have made them aware the sexual nature of the jokes disturb you. The second example would never reach a jury. A judge would dismiss the charge as it doesn't meet the definition of a hostile work environment.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2013 15:30:14 GMT -5
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 20, 2013 15:36:15 GMT -5
To answer the 2nd question, i don't believe there is a discrimination charge based on nepotism. You're either discriminated against for a valid reason or you're not. Not that there can't be nepotism claims against someone, but I don't believe it's something like discrimination where you're going to collect. And in many cases nepotism isn't forbidden.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 15:42:27 GMT -5
I read the link and it is the biggest BS ever! So the same bad treatment can be done to two people in two different companies but whoever is in the protected class is the one that can complain, the other is $hit out of luck! This is exactly why the protected class is reverse discrimination. I think there should be a way to protect people from being discriminated against for race, religion, etc but it shouldn't mean the people that are not in those protected classes can be treated like dirt and have no recourse!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2013 16:05:39 GMT -5
I read the link and it is the biggest BS ever! So the same bad treatment can be done to two people in two different companies but whoever is in the protected class is the one that can complain, the other is $hit out of luck! This is exactly why the protected class is reverse discrimination. I think there should be a way to protect people from being discriminated against for race, religion, etc but it shouldn't mean the people that are not in those protected classes can be treated like dirt and have no recourse! You do have recourse-upper management and Human Resources. As a former HR rep, I dealt with managers that were abusive to employees and the abuse stopped after the threat of terminantion for gross misconduct.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 20, 2013 16:16:12 GMT -5
::You do have recourse-upper management and Human Resources.::
Well, you have recourse assuming there is anyone above them in management or a human resources department. You don't have legal recourse for a hostile work environment though.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 20, 2013 16:21:44 GMT -5
There is always Constructive Discharge (resigning your employment because your employer (read manager or the entire business) has made your life absolutely miserable. You can sue and may be able to collect unemployment benefits.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Feb 20, 2013 16:21:49 GMT -5
Unless you are willing to lose your job, taking on this issue could be a huge mistake. You most likely will not win. And, even if you do, you will have created so much animosity that will make your work life miserable. For most workplaces, i think this is just a fact of life. There are some people you work with and some people you work around.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 20, 2013 16:26:25 GMT -5
Ok I think we're all ready for the juicy details to be filled in!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Feb 20, 2013 16:29:25 GMT -5
Case in point. My mom successfully sued her company back in the 70's for sexual discrimination. She was supervisor and she trained some men and they then became her boss. She did actually win and received a judgment which as a couple thousand dollars. Not some huge award. And, she was not allowed to return to work there. As a result of that, she was never able to find another job in that field. So, if you are going to the mat, you better really be prepared for what can happen.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 21, 2013 8:43:59 GMT -5
Nepotism depends on the workplace, I think.
If you work in a small family owned business, nepotism is just par for the course. I think all family owned businesses have one crazy uncle or slacker niece on the payroll. For small businesses, there isn't much you can do - the owner of the company can decide if he wants to bankroll his useless relatives if he wants to.
If you work for a large publically owned company with an HR department, nepotism charges would be taken much more seriously. Where I work there can be family members working together, but they can't be direct reports to each other, so there can't be any possibility for a family member to favor another family member. Any breeches would be handled quickly by HR.
As for nepotism being against the law - nope. Many small businesses are family businesses.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 22, 2013 15:33:38 GMT -5
I don't have much to add other than to say I'm sorry you are going through this. Some people just seem to luck out big time and get away with things we wish they didn't.
ETA: I'm also curious whether length of time that this goes on has an impact on whether or not it is considered harassment.
Lets go back to the sex joke example. Lets say "coworker C" (a woman) always laughed at the jokes, and once in a while played along. Then 2 years into it, coworker C says the jokes offend her and try to report A and B. Can A and B contest that C was a willing participant for all that time, so why now?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 22, 2013 15:46:12 GMT -5
They can always bring that up, but it won't make much difference. The issue isn't whether or not she went along with it and for how long, but whether action was taken when she DID report it. It would be hard for Coworker C to make much of a case for hostile work environment if appropriate action was taken upon her first report.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 22, 2013 16:41:51 GMT -5
...:::"They can always bring that up, but it won't make much difference. The issue isn't whether or not she went along with it and for how long, but whether action was taken when she DID report it. It would be hard for Coworker C to make much of a case for hostile work environment if appropriate action was taken upon her first report.":::...
That seems a bit two-faced -- almost like you are incentivized for being the first one to blow the whistle.
But this is why people are afraid to be friends with their co-workers, and this is why everything has to be so bloody PC.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 22, 2013 17:00:17 GMT -5
Actually now that I think about it, I guess the key is "that action was taken".
So if coworker C is a willing participant, then decides to try and capitalize on it, I assume the action has to be the supervisor confronting A and B. I would hope that A and B could at least say "we'll stop, but for the past 2 years, C was just as guilty as us" and that would be the end of it.
If C really was trying to milk a payday, she likely wouldn't be satisfied with that, but I hope she'd have no other case. Although some companies are so risk averse, they would just overreact to appease the whiner.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 22, 2013 17:01:47 GMT -5
I don't see it that way. Employment discrimination cases are very emotionally draining for the plaintiff and can drag on for years. It's not something anyone enters into lightly. There is no "incentive" for blowing the whistle - in order to have a colorable claim, you have to have a very clear and documented pattern of management's repeated failures to take action. And although retaliation is technically forbidden, anyone who plans to sue has to face the fact that they are very likely to lose their job. The ED cases that make the news aren't usually representative. There are few employees who go around trying to find discrimination for which they can sue. Why would they? It takes years and even some pretty strong cases won't win. When I worked for an employment law firm, they rejected probably 4 of every 5 clients who walked in the door. If you want a quick payday, you go the slip-and-fall route.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 22, 2013 17:11:54 GMT -5
I think we're talking about two different parts in the process. I was focusing more on the initial "tattling" while you are already at the trial.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 22, 2013 18:38:06 GMT -5
With the protected classes- race/sex/religion, there IS no reverse discrimination.- you are protected if you are discriminated against because of any race(including the majority race), any sex (including male) any religion...(including the majority religion.)
Not protected: Ugly, fat, dresses badly, too much make-up, bad hair, thin, pretty, likes cats.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Feb 22, 2013 18:49:59 GMT -5
What quince meant to say is:
Not protected: alternatively attractive, abundant, fashion-challenged, extra-cosmeticized, handi-coiffed, and feline-partial.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Mar 4, 2013 2:34:15 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies and information. This has unfortunately been a very long, drawn out and painful process but here I am today. And for those of you that already know the back story on my history with this company, please no "I told you so's"... I work for a small business owned by a husband and wife. I sit as next in command after the two of them. A family member has joined the company in the recent history and joined the ranks of the executive team. This family member has zero applicable experience in our industry, and has no applicable experience in management. There is a direct interdependence of our positions and yet, it has been an uphill battle getting this person to communicate, participate in a meaningful way, etc. There have consistently been problems for the 18 months that the arrangement has been in place. In this same time frame, the owners welcomed a child and both drastically stepped back from the company. I've assumed a more involved role in their place. That only caused further issues.
We've had some fairly large projects going on and I made the decision to step back and allow this other person to take a more active role. My objective was two fold: free up some of my time and allow their skills (or rather lack thereof) to be shown. My work was allowing this person to fly under the radar and their inadequacies were being overlooked. The decision was fully supported by the two owners, who were only aware of the first objective.
In short order, they figured out that this person couldn't handle project A, so it was given back to me as project leader. I continued to delegate and direct. I then learned that this person was complaining about my style to the owner whom they're (by blood) related to. The owner then addressed me, however, they did not handled it with an ounce of professionalism - they made it personal. The exact phrase was "you're a shitty person, unprofessional and insensitive".
This has been an ongoing saga for years of taking this type of treatment. I've been attacked racially, religiously, politically, etc. The list goes on. I am not sure that taking a stance in court for Hostile Work Environment is a hill I want to die on, but I've had enough.
I've begun looking for other jobs and actually have an interview Tuesday for a position that really excites me. I don't intend to give them more than two weeks notice, despite the fact that they literally have no idea what I do or how I do it. I've been with this company a very long time and they have complete trust in me. I literally have blanket, unbridled access to millions of dollars. A penny has never so much been sniffed at in the wrong way.
In an odd way, I feel incredibly guilty knowing that I will be leaving and that it will be leaving them in a bind. I don't want to burn a bridge, but how can I possibly extend myself to these asshats any more than I already have?
It's been very difficult and taxing for me to even be in the office around these people and unfortunately, much of our personal lives are intertwined and overlap. Guess that's just my rant/update. Any advice is welcome.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 4, 2013 6:08:38 GMT -5
When they called me names, I no longer would feel guilty about anything. Give them 1 week, I doubt they will want you there for that long after you submit a resignation. And of course be prepared for phone calls asking how to do such and such.
As for burning bridges, I might would have gone back when they realized they had misjudged the other employee and let them have the upper hand. But again, the way they disrepected you is a no-no.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 4, 2013 6:44:21 GMT -5
From what you're describing, you would not have a strong case for a hostile environment. It's not illegal to be unfair, crappy bosses or to favor a blood relative.
You might have a case for this, though, "I've been attacked racially, religiously, politically, etc." Depends on what the attack was and how it was handled.
When you go to present the background and history to the EEOC, lawyer or the next boss, I wouldn't recommend leading with this, "I literally have blanket, unbridled access to millions of dollars. A penny has never so much been sniffed at in the wrong way." Not stealing is one of those basic implied skills that is good, but not something you lead with. I also wouldn't go into gory detail about unfair treatment; even if the treatment was unfair, it will make you sound like a whiner. Just blithely say something along the lines of "Although I was highly trusted at my prior job, I'm looking forward to the ___________ opportunities that this new job offers."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 8:42:19 GMT -5
In your position, I would email in my resignation and never look back. Notice to a company like that? Nope.
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seriousthistime
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Post by seriousthistime on Mar 4, 2013 9:18:04 GMT -5
An ongoing saga for years? Why would you stay any length of time at a place that treats you that way?
I've worked at huge corporations. I decided that I'd had enough of not being rewarded for my work because some distant HR person put parameters on the amount of raise to be given in general. And when I'd complain to my boss, he'd shrug his shoulders and say that if it were up to him, I'd get far more. But HR said no.
So I went to work managing a small family-owned business, figuring that the boss wouldn't be able to blame anything on HR. The business supported several relatives who did nominal work and got outrageous paychecks. There was also a minority shareholder who was a close family friend. Things got ugly with the minority shareholder (I was constantly acting as the go-between in that mess), the owner's daughter embezzled $15,000 from the business, and when I finally found out and told the owners they were absolutely crushed and upset. Then they started to rationalize that since she would own a part of company someday she was really taking her own money early. Eventually it became clear that they didn't like a non-family member knowing a dirty secret about one of their own. That was my clue to quit.
No matter where you work, you have to deal with coworkers and bosses. Even if you're self-employed, your boss is any person that pays you. Big corporation, small family-owned business -- whatever, they each have their problems. You can't always get people to see your side of it, but you can always walk away.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Mar 4, 2013 13:58:48 GMT -5
Maven, if I remember correctly, you returned to your present company after you had left to work on your own business because they offered you a position/opportunity that you believed to be a rare and good opportunity.
If that is the case, I would make my exit as quickly and professionally as possible. You are right to give two weeks notice because you will likely want a reference in the future.
When you give your two weeks notice, ask for a letter of recommendation the next week. Since no one really knows what you do, you are going to get calls and requests for help. Some might view this as a negative, but I think it is leverage in your favor that will help you get that letter.
If you apply for jobs in the future and use them as a phone reference, send them a quick email first, letting them know you employers will be calling and attach the letter of recommendation. Emailing the reference letter will help them remember the positive things they thought about you and that they have put it in writing. I would actually like it if past employees did this because we sometimes get caught of guard or can't remember enough specifics about a person from 5 years ago.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 4, 2013 14:01:50 GMT -5
::If you apply for jobs in the future and use them as a phone reference, send them a quick email first, letting them know you employers will be calling and attach the letter of recommendation. Emailing the reference letter will help them remember the positive things they thought about you and that they have put it in writing. I would actually like it if past employees did this because we sometimes get caught of guard or can't remember enough specifics about a person from 5 years ago. :: This is only going to work if she actually takes those calls and requests for help though. I wouldn't. You'll be working another job. You won't have time, nor is it appropriate, to take calls helping your own employer while you should be working for your new one
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