cael
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Post by cael on Jan 24, 2011 17:01:09 GMT -5
Gotta say, all in all a pretty civil discussion, which is nice!
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:02:20 GMT -5
Loopdilou - I agree. And, why does your tag say "I like boobs?" Because I like boobs? I have two of them. They're fun to play with. I admire the boobs of other women when they are nicer than or equal to my own. Plus, they give my husband something to play with too.
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robinking
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Post by robinking on Jan 24, 2011 17:16:32 GMT -5
Oh and, finally, I don't care whether or not anyone believes in a higher power. That is their business. I just hope that they understand that all of what they attribute to "God" can, in fact, be attributed to science. If you understand this and still choose to believe, then your faith might actually be stronger. And never follow blindly. Study your book, because it is a book which deserves studying. Do not take in blind faith anything anyone within your religion says - figure it out for yourself. The whole point of non-Catholic Christian religions is that you have a direct avenue to God - use it. If you're a Catholic, well... the whole point of your religion is blind faith, so have fun with that I agree! I also like boobs! lol
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robinking
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Post by robinking on Jan 24, 2011 17:21:33 GMT -5
Faith or lack of it is a PERSONAL choice! True freedom is what I want. This means freedom to believe and practice your beliefs or not to believe. As long as your beliefs don't impinge on my rights or the rights of another... then to each his/her own. I think knowledge is the key to civility. Know thyself and thy neighbor. Have some empathy for others and what they go through before you judge them. This would bring more peace to our society than any theocracy could. I believe in God. Don't ridicule me if you don't and I won't judge you either
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2011 17:22:07 GMT -5
Drive by post here..... I would like to point out that if we are going to advertise the US as the "Land of the Free" then we can't keep passing legislation that takes away a person's freedom to choose (and not just in the case of abortions). An American has the right to choose how to live his or her OWN life and we shouldn't be imposing our ideals on to anyone else. What gives any of us the right to dictate how another adult chooses to live THEIR life as long as they are not hurting anyone else? ETA: or breaking the law, since I know that SOMEONE is going to start splitting hairs.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 17:22:39 GMT -5
Oh and, finally, I don't care whether or not anyone believes in a higher power. That is their business. I just hope that they understand that all of what they attribute to "God" can, in fact, be attributed to science. If you understand this and still choose to believe, then your faith might actually be stronger. Science has not explained how something came to be from nothing. The big bang explains how that something formed the universe, but it has not explained how that something came to be in the first place. You do also realize, i hope, that most people who believe in God attribute the entire world to his creation. There are many things in the universe which science has not yet explained. Also much of science is "theory", it takes nothing to create a theory other than a fun story. For example: There are rings around Saturn because one day a giant robot was flying through space and ran into a space rock. The rock exploded and the robot threw the pieces toward Saturn. This can never be definitively disproven. Most science theory is no more fact than religious teachings are, but people toss the word "science" into it and all of a sudden everyone thinks it must be factual. Saying "it can all be attributed to science" holds no meaning. You could attribute anything to anything else. If inclined you could attribute everything to magical elves who run the world. Attributing a happening to something does not make it so. I attribute my success with the ladies to my good looks and charm, even though it has more to do with alcohol and rufies:)
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 17:25:09 GMT -5
What gives any of us the right to dictate how another adult chooses to live THEIR life as long as they are not hurting anyone else? ETA: or breaking the law, since I know that SOMEONE is going to start splitting hairs. I think the argument comes in when you start deciding what is or isn't hurting someone else. Isn't that how most of these laws get passed? Someone makes the argument that the specific action hurts someone. Seldom do I hear arguments to pass laws based on "cuz I say so" (even if that's the real motivation).
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:29:09 GMT -5
Umm.. actually a theory has to be something that can be tested. Often this means that it can be tested false. That's what makes a theory.
You can't test the existence of god.
And there are actually theories on how something came from nothing that are being tested. Picked up a physics book recently? These theories have not yet been proven false and so are held to be true for the time being.
Otherwise I have to assume you've never taken a science class, because otherwise you would know this.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:31:42 GMT -5
And if something hasn't been explained yet, it just means nobody has thought up a theory to explain it. Or they have and someone falsified it. But that doesn't mean it is unexplainable, just that we haven't figured out the how of it yet
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 17:37:08 GMT -5
Umm.. actually a theory has to be something that can be tested. Often this means that it can be tested false. That's what makes a theory. You can't test the existence of god. And there are actually theories on how something came from nothing that are being tested. Picked up a physics book recently? These theories have not yet been proven false and so are held to be true for the time being. Otherwise I have to assume you've never taken a science class, because otherwise you would know this. Science "theories" are only posited to be true when reviewed by a group of scientists and generally agreed upon. Note the near identical course which religious believers posit their own stories to be true when reviewed by religious leaders and included in writings such as the Bible. That's the point, religious stories and scientific theories are nothing more than stories which groups of like-minded peers have come together and agreed upon. This is how you get science theories which contradict other science theories. People want to posit both as "true" even though both could never be true. It mirrors the idea of religious contradictions almost perfectly actually. It also speaks to the idea that you can "attribute" anything to anything else. Slapping a "science" label on it doesn't make it any more or less likely to be true. It means only that people who self-identify themselves as scientists have agreed...again, exactly as those who identify as belonging to religious groups agree on their own stories.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 17:39:52 GMT -5
And if something hasn't been explained yet, it just means nobody has thought up a theory to explain it. Or they have and someone falsified it. But that doesn't mean it is unexplainable, just that we haven't figured out the how of it yet Right, which makes it ridiculous to say "it can be attributed to science". It can also be attributed to magic elves, toe jam, or aliens. All it takes is someone to make up a good story about it. I agree it doesn't make it unexplainable...but then that also means that the existence of God is not necessarily "unable to be tested", it might just mean people haven't figured out how to test for it yet right?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:42:00 GMT -5
Ok, right, except that there is literally no way to prove the existence of god. It is untestable. Even by religious people. Even they will all admit they act on faith. And of course the "science" label doesn't make it more likely to be true, but at least you can test it.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:47:19 GMT -5
And if something hasn't been explained yet, it just means nobody has thought up a theory to explain it. Or they have and someone falsified it. But that doesn't mean it is unexplainable, just that we haven't figured out the how of it yet Right, which makes it ridiculous to say "it can be attributed to science". It can also be attributed to magic elves, toe jam, or aliens. All it takes is someone to make up a good story about it. I agree it doesn't make it unexplainable...but then that also means that the existence of God is not necessarily "unable to be tested", it might just mean people haven't figured out how to test for it yet right? No, it takes someone to make up a good story that can be tested. If it is then found to be false, it is no longer a theory. When one calls it a THEORY with a capital T then it has been tested by (often) thousands of people and none of them have found it to be false. Whereas the existence of god, or rather the theory of such, has been tested and proven to be false. In cases of things that we haven't explained yet, it's not that we haven't been able to test of their existence, just their process. However, this quandary is why Atheists (except the rabid ones) will change their minds if given testable proof that there is a god.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 24, 2011 17:48:29 GMT -5
I have never felt more alone, or more unloved than when I was persuing a Christian lifestyle and active in church activities and hanging around Christian people.
I'm much happier as a heathen.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Jan 24, 2011 17:58:18 GMT -5
Loop, religion does not recognize testability. Religion holds that deities can and do impact physical laws in ways which are often beyond human understanding. Trying to evaluate religion from a scientific perspective is a useless, circular argument that always fails.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 24, 2011 17:58:35 GMT -5
This whole thread makes me weep for the state of education in this country.
A few things that jumped out at me. Air exists. It's a physical thing. Made from matter. Can be measured. There's a vast huge difference between a room full of air, and a room full of vacuum. You can't see the difference with the human eye, but you can really easily measure it.
There was something about the universe by definition being everything. Quite a few different branches of higher math keep coming to the mathematical conclusion that we might live in a multiverse. That is there are multiple simultaneous universes alongside each other. In that case our definition of the word universe, as most of us understand it , is completely wrong.
The rings around Saturn aren't made of rock. They're ice crystals. The giant robot would have had to run into a comet and thrown the debris towards Saturn. Hey look at that. I just disproved your theory, and it only took like two seconds. Now of course I can't disprove the giant robot part, it's theoretically possible I suppose. What we can do is observe the ice moon Europa that orbits very near Saturn. By observing it we can see that Saturn exerts tremendous tidal stress on the moon which causes water vapor to be drawn from the moon into Saturn's orbit, and eventually into the planet itself. We can also observe that space is like really cold. We know that water changes state from a liquid to a solid when it gets really cold. We can't completely prove that Saturn only has rings because it's pulling water from Europa, but it's the most likely explanation that fits with our observations and knowledge. If you still have faith in the giant robot thingy, that's your call though.
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 18:01:25 GMT -5
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 24, 2011 18:02:08 GMT -5
I thought the air example was pretty lame. I mean, I guess the guy who only believes that air exists by faith would get on an airplane with no oxygen masks.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 18:04:13 GMT -5
"Whereas the existence of god, or rather the theory of such, has been tested and proven to be false."
It has? You just got done ranting about how it cannot be tested.
"When one calls it a THEORY with a capital T then it has been tested by (often) thousands of people and none of them have found it to be false"
Simply being unable to prove something to be false does not make it true. How many years did people operate on the notion that the earth was flat? For thousands of years no one proved it false, that did not mean it was true. It almost always means the testing is inadequate (as in, probably not testable with today's equipment/knowledge). But slap a "science" label on inadequate ability to test and people fall all over themselves believing stories to be true.
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 18:05:50 GMT -5
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 18:10:09 GMT -5
Ok, right, except that there is literally no way to prove the existence of god. It is untestable. Even by religious people. Even they will all admit they act on faith. Very good point. However, there have been some studies about the use of prayer on those that are sick with the same type of illness in a hospital. I believe that the study started out with a group of people that were sick were prayed for and another group that were sick were not prayed for. However, there was no difference in the care for the two groups. The ones that were prayed for didn't show any difference then those that weren't. Does this prove that there is no God? The group of people that were studing this came to the conclusion that they couldn't really say that the group that weren't prayed for could have been prayed for but the people conducting the study couldn't completely eliminate the prayers from outside their control group. ( I know - a run on sentence but I hope you can understand where I am going with this). Along the same lines, I have a co-worker that has bone cancer. He is doing really well and believes that he is going into recession. I think that faith is really important when going through something like this - whether it is faith in God or something else because without some type of faith what keeps you going? First off, studies have also shown that there is no connection between prayer and healing when the person being prayed for has no idea that the prayer is taking place, and the studies that did show have pretty much all been proven false. This is not to say that when an individual is being prayed is aware of the prayer that he/she does not seem to benefit from it. It's a bit like the placebo affect. They know it happens, but they're not sure how yet. However, that's primarily because scientists are still studying the brain and have yet to determine how a lot of the interactions taking place actually affect our bodies. Faith (or at least meditation), for instance, can be seen in scans of the brain. Something IS happening, but that something is synapses firing and chemicals getting released.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 24, 2011 18:15:19 GMT -5
Or it's god blessing them somehow. We'll probably never be able to definitively prove one way or the other.
For myself, I don't believe in the traditional "god" as most people mean it. More specifically, if there was a being, or beings, that somehow created the matter that resulted in the big bang, I don't think they give a flying fig whether the apex predator on one tiny speck of rock out of the mutliple billions they created worship it/them. The very idea of it is so earth and human centric as to be almost completely ridiculous. But maybe that's just me.
We use to think the earth was the center of the universe. Then we thought surely we were in the center of the only galaxy. Now we know that our planet revolves around the sun, we're on the edge of our own galaxy, and that there are billions of other galaxies. For some reason we're still clinging to the odd belief that we're super duper special and the creator of all of it left the rest empty and only put life here. I think in another hundred years or so that belief will look as stupid as the flat earth, or single galaxy idea, and our religious beliefs will change as a result.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jan 24, 2011 18:20:00 GMT -5
Whether or not someone believes in a God is really a moot point. I don't see what's to be gained in trying to prove or disprove the existence of one. If someone has faith that there is a God and their faith is a help or comfort to them, then why not? Some people find their lives more fulfilled with believing. And on the other hand, if someone else is equally as sure that no God exisits, then that's their prerogative too. There's two arguments that never will have a right side and a wrong side in a debate - one is religion and the other politics.
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 18:26:36 GMT -5
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robinking
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Post by robinking on Jan 24, 2011 19:03:07 GMT -5
I have never felt more alone, or more unloved than when I was persuing a Christian lifestyle and active in church activities and hanging around Christian people. I'm much happier as a heathen. Unfortunately, you may have been around the wrong group. I've been around Christians I don't feel at home with. This didn't make God's existence any less for me. All my schooling still hasn't disproved His existence. To me, it's proven fact. Ultimately, it is as scientifically unprovable as is love, the Big Bang, evolution, the Garden of Eden... p.s. love can't be confused with lust. Lust is the endorphin rush one gets when they're "in love". It fades after 6 months. The simplest cell has 60,000 proteins. The more I studied science, the more I believed in God. I whole heartedly believe in microevolution. I believe in the Garden of Eden as well. The earth is ~4.5 billion years old and the Garden of Eden is 10,000+. So what gives? My "theory" is that God guided evolution and has evolved Himself. He created the dinosaurs for some fun. Then He created man via evolution. About the time prehistoric man was close to present day man... he created the Garden of Eden. The people there lived longer according to the Bible. But, dumbass got jealous of his brother and killed Abel. So, Cain was marked on his forehead and kicked out. Out in the wilderness he met some broads who I contend were evolutionary humans. He bred with them and thus we have the modern world. This is how I reconcile dinosaurs with the Bible. Pretty radical, I know!
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 24, 2011 19:11:40 GMT -5
Why weren't the chicks Cain mated with in the Garden with the other people?
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kent
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Post by kent on Jan 24, 2011 19:20:31 GMT -5
You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Has anyone here ever seen a million in cash? If not, then I guess you'd have to deny the existence of it, wouldn't you?
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 19:23:52 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 24, 2011 19:24:09 GMT -5
Has anyone here ever seen a million in cash? Yep. I got a picture of myself with it. I've never been so tempted to steal something in my whole life.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 24, 2011 19:25:52 GMT -5
Or it's god blessing them somehow. We'll probably never be able to definitively prove one way or the other. For myself, I don't believe in the traditional "god" as most people mean it. More specifically, if there was a being, or beings, that somehow created the matter that resulted in the big bang, I don't think they give a flying fig whether the apex predator on one tiny speck of rock out of the mutliple billions they created worship it/them. The very idea of it is so earth and human centric as to be almost completely ridiculous. But maybe that's just me. It's not just you who thinks that. I have always thought (humorously) humans along with our universe were some kid's (in another dimension and time) science project. Much like an ant farm.
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