whiskmav
Familiar Member
I like my tide and my table turned.
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Post by whiskmav on Jan 24, 2011 14:34:47 GMT -5
No
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quotequeen
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Post by quotequeen on Jan 24, 2011 14:37:11 GMT -5
Of course she does.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 24, 2011 14:39:25 GMT -5
::Does God Exist?:: Good Lord, no!
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 14:46:25 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2011 14:49:05 GMT -5
Air is actually measurable, quantifiable and can be seen in some fairly standard conditions. Air is intangible like God. In a room absent from air would it be any different then a room that has air? Yes. You would get to meet God if you were in a room that had no air.
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Loopdilou
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AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 14:50:18 GMT -5
Love is actually quantifiable, it being the product of chemical interactions in your brain.
So can faith, actually. It being a product of the same thing.
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 14:50:30 GMT -5
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swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
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Post by swamp on Jan 24, 2011 14:53:32 GMT -5
Air is intangible like God. In a room absent from air would it be any different then a room that has air? Yes. You would get to meet God if you were in a room that had no air. After the room imploded because of the difference in air pressure.
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Loopdilou
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AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
Joined: Feb 27, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 14:58:48 GMT -5
Yes, air might not exist in that room - but a vacuum would
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 15:00:04 GMT -5
"My response was in direct response to the majority of the "Pro-Choice" stand on abortion which does not include late term abortions. I didn't feel I needed to really spell out the fact that I do not support late term abortions... which I'm sure you knew. You're just trying to nitpick my statement. And for the record, I am pro choice, but if I were ever faced with that decision I would choose life. I personally could not have an abortion unless it was the result of rape or incest."
I realize this, and that's my point. You believe in the autonomy of a woman over her own body...except for when you don't. Which is the exact belief that pro-lifers also have. The only real question is "when don't you?" All of the "woman's autonomy" and "woman's right to choose" and "my body my choice" is nothing but rhetoric because the real belief of both sides is "(Insert emotional rhetoric)...unless I think it's wrong"...which both sides believe and the argument is over "when is it wrong".
My point is that in the actual scheme of things, neither side is really all that far from the other. On the overall spectrum of "it's wrong to spill your seed unless it's to create life" to "it's ok to kill newborns if it's not the gender/health/etc that you wanted"...American pro-life and pro-choice supporters are pretty close to one another.
I bring it up because in the context of "god is love and wants us to all love one another" and "God is vengeful and a war monger who demands blood" are both pretty close also. Heck in Christian beliefs he's shown as both within the realm of one book. Substituting/adding/removing one portion could leave either viewpoint as a reasonable expectation...which is bringing closer the already shared viewpoint that God even exists.
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Post by dmsm on Jan 24, 2011 15:02:22 GMT -5
Do I believe in God that decides who dies and who doesn't in a disaster? No, Do I believe god chooses who wins a ball game? Nope, Do I believe that life started in the garden of Eden? ?? Nope. So I quess the answer is no. Now abortion. It is legal and should be. This does not make any woman have one she does not want and unless you are the woman it is none of our business. Just hers and her Doctors.
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The J
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Post by The J on Jan 24, 2011 15:05:45 GMT -5
Air is actually measurable, quantifiable and can be seen in some fairly standard conditions. Air is intangible like God. In a room absent from air would it be any different then a room that has air? But I will submit that Love is probably a better example. Umm....yes a room with no air is different from a room with air.
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swamp
Community Leader
Don't be a fool. Call me!
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Post by swamp on Jan 24, 2011 15:07:10 GMT -5
And a room with no loving is boring.
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Loopdilou
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AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
Joined: Feb 27, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 15:08:17 GMT -5
"My response was in direct response to the majority of the "Pro-Choice" stand on abortion which does not include late term abortions. I didn't feel I needed to really spell out the fact that I do not support late term abortions... which I'm sure you knew. You're just trying to nitpick my statement. And for the record, I am pro choice, but if I were ever faced with that decision I would choose life. I personally could not have an abortion unless it was the result of rape or incest." I realize this, and that's my point. You believe in the autonomy of a woman over her own body...except for when you don't. Which is the exact belief that pro-lifers also have. The only real question is "when don't you?" All of the "woman's autonomy" and "woman's right to choose" and "my body my choice" is nothing but rhetoric because the real belief of both sides is "(Insert emotional rhetoric)...unless I think it's wrong"...which both sides believe and the argument is over "when is it wrong". My point is that in the actual scheme of things, neither side is really all that far from the other. On the overall spectrum of "it's wrong to spill your seed unless it's to create life" to "it's ok to kill newborns if it's not the gender/health/etc that you wanted"...American pro-life and pro-choice supporters are pretty close to one another. I bring it up because in the context of "god is love and wants us to all love one another" and "God is vengeful and a war monger who demands blood" are both pretty close also. Heck in Christian beliefs he's shown as both within the realm of one book. Substituting/adding/removing one portion could leave either viewpoint as a reasonable expectation...which is bringing closer the already shared viewpoint that God even exists. Here's my thing... viability doesn't occur until about 23 weeks, and even then it is still not a guarantee. Anything before 23 weeks literally CANNOT SURVIVE ON ITS OWN! It is not a baby - it is a parasite. Post 23 weeks there is a slim chance of survival, so I'm not happy with it, but I still think it should be legal. If the choice is between the mother living and neither living - the mother should be able to choose the baby if that is her wish... although I guarantee it is never really what she wants. Regardless, this has literally nothing to do with the existence of god so I'm not sure why people keeping bringing it up in posts about god.
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Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jan 24, 2011 15:23:52 GMT -5
Air is actually measurable, quantifiable and can be seen in some fairly standard conditions. Air is intangible like God. In a room absent from air would it be any different then a room that has air? But I will submit that Love is probably a better example. Really? Did you skip science class when you were in school?
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Post by efco on Jan 24, 2011 15:31:37 GMT -5
"My response was in direct response to the majority of the "Pro-Choice" stand on abortion which does not include late term abortions. I didn't feel I needed to really spell out the fact that I do not support late term abortions... which I'm sure you knew. You're just trying to nitpick my statement. And for the record, I am pro choice, but if I were ever faced with that decision I would choose life. I personally could not have an abortion unless it was the result of rape or incest." I realize this, and that's my point. You believe in the autonomy of a woman over her own body...except for when you don't. Which is the exact belief that pro-lifers also have. The only real question is "when don't you?" All of the "woman's autonomy" and "woman's right to choose" and "my body my choice" is nothing but rhetoric because the real belief of both sides is "(Insert emotional rhetoric)...unless I think it's wrong"...which both sides believe and the argument is over "when is it wrong". My point is that in the actual scheme of things, neither side is really all that far from the other. On the overall spectrum of "it's wrong to spill your seed unless it's to create life" to "it's ok to kill newborns if it's not the gender/health/etc that you wanted"...American pro-life and pro-choice supporters are pretty close to one another. I bring it up because in the context of "god is love and wants us to all love one another" and "God is vengeful and a war monger who demands blood" are both pretty close also. Heck in Christian beliefs he's shown as both within the realm of one book. Substituting/adding/removing one portion could leave either viewpoint as a reasonable expectation...which is bringing closer the already shared viewpoint that God even exists. Here's my thing... viability doesn't occur until about 23 weeks, and even then it is still not a guarantee. Anything before 23 weeks literally CANNOT SURVIVE ON ITS OWN! It is not a baby - it is a parasite. Post 23 weeks there is a slim chance of survival, so I'm not happy with it, but I still think it should be legal. If the choice is between the mother living and neither living - the mother should be able to choose the baby if that is her wish... although I guarantee it is never really what she wants. Regardless, this has literally nothing to do with the existence of god so I'm not sure why people keeping bringing it up in posts about god. If that's the case, you should be able to kill..er abort your 2 month old. A two month old cannot survive on it's own. What's the difference?
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Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 24, 2011 15:34:16 GMT -5
And a room with no loving is boring. A chair is still a chair Even when there's no one sitting there But a chair is not a house And a house is not a home When there's no one there to hold you tight, And no one there you can kiss good night. A room is still a room Even when there's nothing there but gloom; But a room is not a house, And a house is not a home When the two of us are far apart And one of us has a broken heart. Now and then I call your name And suddenly your face appears But it's just a crazy game When it ends it ends in tears. Darling, have a heart, Don't let one mistake keep us apart. I'm not meant to live alone. Turn this house into a home. When I climb the stair and turn the key, Oh, please be there still in love with me. (We need a musical note symbol)
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hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
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Post by hoops902 on Jan 24, 2011 15:37:18 GMT -5
"If that's the case, you should be able to kill..er abort your 2 month old. A two month old cannot survive on it's own.
What's the difference?"
The same difference in the "God exists/God doesn't exist", "God wants us to love everyone/God wants us to carry out his will by killing" arguments...perception.
And as always, my perception is fact, your perception is illogical and ridiculous.
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Befferz
Senior Member
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Post by Befferz on Jan 24, 2011 15:40:26 GMT -5
And as always, my perception is fact, your perception is illogical and ridiculous.
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Post by efco on Jan 24, 2011 15:40:44 GMT -5
"If that's the case, you should be able to kill..er abort your 2 month old. A two month old cannot survive on it's own. What's the difference?" The same difference in the "God exists/God doesn't exist", "God wants us to love everyone/God wants us to carry out his will by killing" arguments...perception. And as always, my perception is fact, your perception is illogical and ridiculous. Incorrect.
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Post by suzwantstobefree on Jan 24, 2011 16:10:37 GMT -5
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robinking
Junior Member
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Post by robinking on Jan 24, 2011 16:12:53 GMT -5
Ironically, I just had a 50+ comment thread on Facebook with a friend on the topic of Wyoming's new law to ban recognition of out of state same sex marriage. I took the viewpoint that there needs to be a distinction between law and religious beliefs. I believe in God and have proof in my own way... but it's not my right to impose my beliefs on another. I can only lead by example. If God suddenly proves His own existence, you won't find me running around saying "I told you so!". It was rather amazing how blind and angry many Christians were in this debate. They simply couldn't respect other's lifestyle choices. I said I believe there should be Civil Unions for ALL couples. I said "marriage" is a religious union and is between a man and a woman. If you're an atheist, then you'd opt for the CU. If gay...CU. I said we need tolerance of other's rights. I said God gives us free choice. They said Jesus wasn't tolerant of sin.
I said marriage is a shame as it's written now. If you believe in God, marriage is for life and "for better, or worse". Therefore, it should be much more difficult to dissolve (adultery, drug or physical abuse...). The CU should be easy to dissolve as it's a legal contract. BOTH should be given the same benefits and protection under the law. But, to gays I say this, if marriage is a Biblical term, then it does say in the Bible that it's not allowed. We live in a Democratic Republic and not a Theocracy.
You wouldn't believe the anger and condemnation I received. I was called a non-believer and was condemned to hell for differentiating between CU and marriage in the law. They simply couldn't accept the term "Civil Union" as a viable alternate for people; not even for atheists. I see these self righteous "Christians" as part of the problem. They see no problem judging others because their faith is real and makes them better then you non-believers out there. This is why our country is so polarized! If they want to be respected, then they need to give respect. Many of them claim to be about freedom, except when that freedom crosses their moral beliefs. They'd legislate morality with no qualms, but when the Left wants to legislate fairness... they're all about the Constitution. Well, I pointed out the Constitution was NOT a religious document. It was written by religious, mostly Christian men, but they put in protections for ALL people. Some will never see this and are thus the crazy 15-20% we call the Fringe Right. Similarly, we have 15-20% on the Nutty Left who believe in a woman's right to choice no questions asked, gay MARRIAGE, no God in anything public or no public $$ for religious anything... but would support taxpayer funded abortions, redistribution of wealth from savers to non-savers and total guns bans. So, we can pick and choose which Amendments to follow? This 30-40% of the population has held hostage the normal 60-70% of us! When do we say ENOUGH!
Most Americans feel uneasy about abortion, but are pro-choice. I'm not going to perform an abortion, and I'm not going to tell a woman she can't make that choice. BUT, I'm not going to say that a fully 8 month gestation, formed HUMAN BEING is a parasite and has no rights just because he/she isn't 2 weeks early! Late term abortion is murder. If someone took a late term pregnant dog and one-by-one, pulled out a puppy's head and jammed an ice pick into it's brain... the Left and PETA would have a tizzy! I'm sorry, but once the baby is fully formed, it's a baby. I've had two 19 year old patients who didn't know they were pregnant until they gave birth. Both were very skinny and only gained a few pounds. One has pictures of her sitting Indian style a week before the birth. Both we intelligent and has periods throughout their pregnancy. Both had very minimal kicking and attributed it to gas and heartburn. The one girl told her dad minutes before giving birth that she was going to the bathroom for some Tums and then yelled out, "Mom!!! I just had a baby!!!". Crazy, but it happens. Should she be able to immediately execute the baby? Is is the policy similar to Cubans trying to make it to America? Once you touch the shore... you're good. If not, you're sent back.
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thyme4change
Community Leader
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 24, 2011 16:16:48 GMT -5
What about the churches that exist that don't believe that homosexuality is a sin? I have several Christian friends who are also homosexual. One is a minister, and in a long-term committed partnership. I know of several churches who are known for being Gay Churches.
Can they still perform marriages according to their beliefs?
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robinking
Junior Member
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Post by robinking on Jan 24, 2011 16:23:29 GMT -5
This is where the debate gets nutty. Sin??? I sin every night with my fiance, so how is that different than a homosexual? I believe most gays are born gay. I'm torn though. Research has shown a tendency toward "gayness". For some, they just want to be greedy and double the number of possible partners. Others, are just attracted to the same sex. I won't define right or wrong. If a church wants to have gay members and clergy... so what. I don't want to go there, but my sin is no less or more sinful than their sin. As for legal marriage? Tough call. We need compromise in society, so the Civil Union is just that. We need compromise in so many ways, but the nuts on both sides won't allow for it. It's all or nothing for them and thus we're continually victimized by their anger.
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Post by rick on Jan 24, 2011 16:28:14 GMT -5
Ironically, I just had a 50+ comment thread on Facebook with a friend on the topic of Wyoming's new law to ban recognition of out of state same sex marriage. I took the viewpoint that there needs to be a distinction between law and religious beliefs. I believe in God and have proof in my own way... but it's not my right to impose my beliefs on another. I can only lead by example. If God suddenly proves His own existence, you won't find me running around saying "I told you so!". It was rather amazing how blind and angry many Christians were in this debate. They simply couldn't respect other's lifestyle choices. I said I believe there should be Civil Unions for ALL couples. I said "marriage" is a religious union and is between a man and a woman. If you're an atheist, then you'd opt for the CU. If gay...CU. I said we need tolerance of other's rights. I said God gives us free choice. They said Jesus wasn't tolerant of sin. I said marriage is a shame as it's written now. If you believe in God, marriage is for life and "for better, or worse". Therefore, it should be much more difficult to dissolve (adultery, drug or physical abuse...). The CU should be easy to dissolve as it's a legal contract. BOTH should be given the same benefits and protection under the law. But, to gays I say this, if marriage is a Biblical term, then it does say in the Bible that it's not allowed. We live in a Democratic Republic and not a Theocracy. You wouldn't believe the anger and condemnation I received. I was called a non-believer and was condemned to hell for differentiating between CU and marriage in the law. They simply couldn't accept the term "Civil Union" as a viable alternate for people; not even for atheists. I see these self righteous "Christians" as part of the problem. They see no problem judging others because their faith is real and makes them better then you non-believers out there. This is why our country is so polarized! If they want to be respected, then they need to give respect. Many of them claim to be about freedom, except when that freedom crosses their moral beliefs. They'd legislate morality with no qualms, but when the Left wants to legislate fairness... they're all about the Constitution. Well, I pointed out the Constitution was NOT a religious document. It was written by religious, mostly Christian men, but they put in protections for ALL people. Some will never see this and are thus the crazy 15-20% we call the Fringe Right. Similarly, we have 15-20% on the Nutty Left who believe in a woman's right to choice no questions asked, gay MARRIAGE, no God in anything public or no public $$ for religious anything... but would support taxpayer funded abortions, redistribution of wealth from savers to non-savers and total guns bans. So, we can pick and choose which Amendments to follow? This 30-40% of the population has held hostage the normal 60-70% of us! When do we say ENOUGH! Most Americans feel uneasy about abortion, but are pro-choice. I'm not going to perform an abortion, and I'm not going to tell a woman she can't make that choice. BUT, I'm not going to say that a fully 8 month gestation, formed HUMAN BEING is a parasite and has no rights just because he/she isn't 2 weeks early! Late term abortion is murder. If someone took a late term pregnant dog and one-by-one, pulled out a puppy's head and jammed an ice pick into it's brain... the Left and PETA would have a tizzy! I'm sorry, but once the baby is fully formed, it's a baby. I've had two 19 year old patients who didn't know they were pregnant until they gave birth. Both were very skinny and only gained a few pounds. One has pictures of her sitting Indian style a week before the birth. Both we intelligent and has periods throughout their pregnancy. Both had very minimal kicking and attributed it to gas and heartburn. The one girl told her dad minutes before giving birth that she was going to the bathroom for some Tums and then yelled out, "Mom!!! I just had a baby!!!". Crazy, but it happens. Should she be able to immediately execute the baby? Is is the policy similar to Cubans trying to make it to America? Once you touch the shore... you're good. If not, you're sent back.
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Loopdilou
Well-Known Member
AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
Joined: Feb 27, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5
Posts: 1,365
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 16:53:08 GMT -5
Here's my thing... viability doesn't occur until about 23 weeks, and even then it is still not a guarantee. Anything before 23 weeks literally CANNOT SURVIVE ON ITS OWN! It is not a baby - it is a parasite. Post 23 weeks there is a slim chance of survival, so I'm not happy with it, but I still think it should be legal. If the choice is between the mother living and neither living - the mother should be able to choose the baby if that is her wish... although I guarantee it is never really what she wants. Regardless, this has literally nothing to do with the existence of god so I'm not sure why people keeping bringing it up in posts about god. If that's the case, you should be able to kill..er abort your 2 month old. A two month old cannot survive on it's own. What's the difference? Logic is the difference. I'm using it. A 2 month old cannot survive on its own, but it could survive with SOMEONES help. A fetus can only survive with the help of the womb in which it is residing in. They haven't invented a false womb yet, anyway
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Loopdilou
Well-Known Member
AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
Joined: Feb 27, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5
Posts: 1,365
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 16:57:48 GMT -5
In terms of gay marriage.. it cannot just be a civil union, unless they rewrite every law in America that says "marriage" and completely rewire everyone's brains while they're at it. I think we're all intelligent enough to realize that language has power. To not allow a term that is secular (whether or not religious people want to believe it) to be applied to a group is discriminatory.
Plus, I think most people just don't actually understand the history of marriage. But whatever.
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thyme4change
Community Leader
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Post by thyme4change on Jan 24, 2011 16:58:02 GMT -5
Loopdilou - I agree.
And, why does your tag say "I like boobs?"
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Post by efco on Jan 24, 2011 17:00:50 GMT -5
LOL!
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Loopdilou
Well-Known Member
AKA Mrs. Dark Honor
Joined: Feb 27, 2012 19:41:33 GMT -5
Posts: 1,365
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Post by Loopdilou on Jan 24, 2011 17:01:00 GMT -5
Oh and, finally, I don't care whether or not anyone believes in a higher power. That is their business. I just hope that they understand that all of what they attribute to "God" can, in fact, be attributed to science. If you understand this and still choose to believe, then your faith might actually be stronger. And never follow blindly. Study your book, because it is a book which deserves studying. Do not take in blind faith anything anyone within your religion says - figure it out for yourself. The whole point of non-Catholic Christian religions is that you have a direct avenue to God - use it. If you're a Catholic, well... the whole point of your religion is blind faith, so have fun with that
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