Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 6, 2012 13:34:08 GMT -5
It sounds to me like she thinks he's lazy. I agree, she does seem to think he is lazy. However, her examples (IMO) don't necessarily show someone that is lazy, more someone with different priorities. She has never indicated how long he tends to be unemployed & it doesn't sound like he is refusing to work. It just sounds like he doesn't meet her expectations & maybe part of the problem is her expectations are unrealistic.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 6, 2012 13:41:00 GMT -5
I could get that, but on the other hand the OP is resentful that her husband keeps getting laid off. She doesn't want him to change careers, but then gets upset over layoffs that are very common in his field. She is creating a no-win situation for her husband & for herself.True. She needs to be okay with occasional layoffs if she wants him in this field. I'm just saying that I could see her not being okay with the career change happening DURING a layoff. It sounds to me like she thinks he's lazy. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it but that's the impression I get. And personally, I hate lazy. I don't do well with lazy. DH has an awesome work ethic and I trust him to do his best to find and keep a job as long as our agreement involves him working. If I didn't have that trust, I'd be a lot less okay with things like random career changes and lengthy layoffs. But just because she thinks he's lazy doesn't mean that he is lazy. My DH says he's lazy all the time and he is by far the least lazy person I know. Actually, my DH when he worked was very similar as far as a "career" goes. He was content to have and he just sort of fell into his career. He was good at it and was always able to find a job at it (in fact after his last layoff he would have gone straight to a new job except that he was recovering from neck surgery and was not medically cleared), but he was "lazy" about his career - not getting licensed even though he has the experience and the knowledge. He just refused to take that next step. He just had no ambition to do that. At home, the man is far from lazy. If he were to go back to work and have a career after our child(ren?) are in school, he would have to switch careers since he can no longer handle the physical grind of his last career. He has no ambition or desire to have a career again, but he would get a job if we needed him financially to have one. My interpretation is that the OP hasn't made it clear why she wants him to have a job.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 6, 2012 13:46:13 GMT -5
But if the new career requires education, why would you not do it while unemployed?
I can't answer that. It would depend on the couple and the situation. For me, DH suddenly deciding to go back to school AFTER being laid off would be a big red flag (it would be different if we'd discussed it before but we were waiting until X event to happen, then the layoff happened instead and we were like "never mind, might as well go for it now").
But DH suddenly wanting to go to school after being laid off would raise a flag if it was not something he'd wanted to do before mostly because it would indicate to me a passive approach to his career rather than an active one. Why not decide what you want and THEN go for it rather than wait for the "perfect" opportunity and then decide you want to go to school because it seems to fit the situation?
Maybe that distinction is a silly one, but DH would have some fast talking to do before I'd be convinced that school instead of work was something he really wanted rather than something which provided a convenient excuse not to go back to work right away.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 6, 2012 13:59:34 GMT -5
But it sounds like her DH as always had a passive approach to his career. Why would this be any different?
My DH was equally passive about his career, it's just how he was. If he was laid off and wanted to go to school to go into a new career, I probably would have thrown a frickin party. Yes I would have wanted a solid plan and are you sure you want to do this and can you get a job because of it. Yes, I would have been freaking out that first semester because he's never gone to college, but just the fact that he was actually showing some ambition to not just do the same old thing would have been huge to me. In 2008, he thought about taking his licensing exam (the in training portion). He was like but it won't be until 2013 until I get my license. Well, 2013 is just around the corner and still no license (obviously a LOT has changed since then). But he got about halfway through the application and gave up. At the end of the day, I married a man with no desire to go further in his career and it is up to me to remember that and accept him for who he is and not someone that he is not.
ETA: As a SAHP, my DH has thrived. Sure there are the mind numbing days of 10 loads of laundry and a cranky kid, but he loves it and does a great job at it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 6, 2012 14:05:17 GMT -5
But it sounds like her DH as always had a passive approach to his career. Why would this be any different? Agreed. She married a guy that isn't passionate about working or furthering his career. To expect him to suddenly change is silly. He works, he contributes to the household, he just has had more layoffs than most due to his field. We aren't talking about a guy that extends his periods of unemployment for years or doesn't contribute to the household, just a guy that isn't into moving up the career ladder. I don't see that as lazy, just a different personality type. Some people don't want to be managers or high-ranking, that stuff comes with stress & working OT. I don't think there is anything wrong with that as long as you do work & contribute.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 6, 2012 14:11:46 GMT -5
Yeah, but if you're not the career-climbing type and you're not passionate about working, it's probably not a good idea to get into a field where there are frequent layoffs. It just invites too much opportunity for lack of ambition (which is okay) to turn into leeching/laziness (which is not okay).
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 6, 2012 14:13:45 GMT -5
Yes, but now that he sees that & is trying to change fields, she is saying no.
Maybe the field wasn't like that when he entered or like many of us, maybe he didn't know what he wanted to do in life & just fell into that career.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 6, 2012 14:17:17 GMT -5
ok, a little more information.
1st time - lost job due to physical confrontation with minority female. Due to circumstances not eligible for unemployment. Out of work for 3 months and took a 25% pay cut. Could not get references from the current company management.
2nd time - did not configure a backup program correctly. There was a server failure, the backup failed, key customer files were lost and the company missed delivery deadlines as well as lost customers. He worked pretty much 48 hours straight trying to restore the data which is why (he was told) they allowed the unemployment claim. Out of work for 8 weeks. This is when we discussed getting more training and certifications to strengthen his skills. Paid for a course (not harping, just giving a timeline) that was not completed. Took roughly a 10% pay cut.
3rd time - pretty much the entire department was let go due to global IT performance issues. This is one I suspected was coming and asked him to look for work elsewhere before it happened. That didn't happen and we received no notice but 4 weeks severance if he signed a waiver. He had some wonderful references (including the president of the company) and only took about 4-6 weeks to find a new job. Made lateral move salary wise.
This is where he suggested he wanted to be a teacher (after saying he wanted more vacation time). He couldn't articulate why he wanted to be a teacher (other than more vacation time). He researched the programs within commuting distance and the requirements to teach in IL. (Eastern for example is a non-starter - too far to commute we'd have to pay room and board and have to get a live-in sitter) We also discussed the type of BS he'd have to tolerate from the parents and school district and he agrees he's not cut out for that.
This time I've been convinced for more than 6 months his location is closing. Again, asked him to look for work elsewhere. No activity until the notice comes home. Since the whole office is closing they have had outplacement assistance and career coaches on site (he has not taken advantage of either). We know know the job is going away for a week and a half and he has not submitted his resume to any headhunters nor applied for any jobs.
As far as the first two times he was let go, he did not pick up any extra houswork responsibilities. Yes, he did cook and clean up dinner during the week but other than that the work was divided as usual. We continued to keep our cleaning service all three times so it's not like there was a ton of cleaning to do.
Before you get on my case about the cleaning service, I have severe OCPD and was hospitalized more than 6 times in one year due to a lack of control. I cannot be around strong chemicals (like cleaning products) so we got a cleaning service since we were both working at the time. The ladies clean while I'm not home and most of the chemical smell is gone by the time I get home from work. The OCPD is much better controlled due to an aggressive drug therapy and my militant control of triggers as much as possible. This is one of the main reasons we must have health insurance and why I'd be shocked if I can work past 55. It is risky to ASSUME I will be able to continue working, which is another reason he can't take too much of a pay cut. So call me a bitch or demanding if you want, but this is the world I live in and yes I will demand that he help add to the financial cushion as there is no certainty I will be able to keep working and we have a child to support.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 6, 2012 14:21:53 GMT -5
Yes, but now that he sees that & is trying to change fields, she is saying no. Maybe the field wasn't like that when he entered or like many of us, maybe he didn't know what he wanted to do in life & just fell into that career. Firebird - You just don't know (eta how he ended up in that career). My DH just fell into his career. The army recruiter looked at his test scores and asked DH what he wanted to do and DH said something that I can get a job with out of the army and the recruiter said ok how about Land Surveying. When I met him over 20 years later he was doing the same thing. It wasn't that he hated it, he just was not ambitous about it. It never lead to him leaching or mooching even with being fired occaisonally or laid off (mainly because he lived very cheaply even though he never saved). His average length of time at one job was 3 years. His longest was 5.5 years. That is normal and average for that career. Surveying crew chiefs come and go. The longest gap between jobs was 3 months in 20 years. The OP needs to deal with the husband she has and not the one she wants to have. They have obviously been together long enough that she knows who she is married to. Attempting to change him will only lead to frustration and resentment.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 6, 2012 14:30:57 GMT -5
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 6, 2012 14:32:51 GMT -5
Firebird - You just don't know.
Well, then I guess that's that ;D
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 6, 2012 14:33:42 GMT -5
This is one of the main reasons we must have health insurance and why I'd be shocked if I can work past 55. It is risky to ASSUME I will be able to continue working, which is another reason he can't take too much of a pay cut. Does he know this and understand this? If he were take something with a bigger pay cut, but better benefits, would that be acceptable to you? So he cooks, does dishes, and you have a cleaning lady. So are you saying you need more help with the laundry when he isn't working? What else are you wanting him to do while he is unemployed? Theoretically, he is looking full time for a job correct. For the record, my DH stays home and does not cook. We've figured out ways around this so that it isn't a big deal (I make crockpot meals the night before, content with leftovers from the weekend, etc). As for the layoffs, at this point you know he isn't ambitous. You know he is going to wait until after the fact. I know my DH hated when I left the company we were working together and I wanted him to get out because it was going downhill. It was a decision he had to make on his own. I couldn't do it for him. You can't do things for your spouse. You can't give them ambition or motivation. You can't do it for them. If I were you, I would want him to change careers into something more stable before I retired. JMO. How are you going to feel when you are retired and are relying on him for health insurance and he gets laid off every 3 years?
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 6, 2012 14:36:38 GMT -5
Firebird - You just don't know.Well, then I guess that's that ;D LOL, yeah that sounded bad. The correct wording would have been you never know how someone ended up in a particular career. Sometimes it isn't a well made choice.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 6, 2012 14:59:28 GMT -5
If I were you, I would want him to change careers into something more stable before I retired. JMO. How are you going to feel when you are retired and are relying on him for health insurance and he gets laid off every 3 years?
This is a great point. But he really needs to think it through and figure out what he can stick with long term before shelling out money and time to get going. They're not kids anymore; he doesn't have years and years on end to figure out what he would prefer to do. What works may be the BEST they can do.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 6, 2012 14:59:44 GMT -5
LOL, yeah that sounded bad. The correct wording would have been you never know how someone ended up in a particular career. Sometimes it isn't a well made choice. Ah, gotcha - thanks for clarifying
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 15:23:25 GMT -5
Does he plan on not working once you are 55? ... Have you consisted moving to a low cola after you are unable to work?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 6, 2012 15:49:10 GMT -5
Does he plan on not working once you are 55? ... Have you consisted moving to a low cola after you are unable to work? Right now (based on current plans and group insurance rates we have access to through alumni assoc) if we are both working, and I can make it to 55, then we should have enough to live off of if we sell the house (it should be paid for by then) and move to a lower cola until reduced SS kicks in at 62. I'm budgeting around 1750 per month for insurance premiums and deductibles and 3k a month for other living expenses so say 5k a month all in. That would mean we'd need to have about 1.5M saved for a safe draw-down rate and we're about a third of the way there. Additional savings sould get another 500K built up by then-and if we get decent returns/employer matches the other 500k should come from market gains. Estimate this is a 13-15 year timeframe to reach these goals. The above assumes no debt.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 6, 2012 17:08:16 GMT -5
I love this statement.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2012 13:41:09 GMT -5
Not sure I'd be so inclined to share my thoughts with SO when she thoroughly stomps on my ideas because they don't meet SO's expectations. I think OP is a "driver" and wants SO to do things the way she would, which is probably unrealistic. Granted that this is a 'vent', but I don't see the teamwork piece of it appearing. Yes, she says she values DH performing SAHP duties, but does not really based on the other comments made. If my SO wanted to go back to school to be a teacher because his schedule would match the child, I'd be thrilled. the captain also does not seem to realize that parental presence is MORE important for a tween/teen than a toddler. If DH is the one to take time of work whenever the child is sick, has field trips, events, conferences, sports, transport needs -- is that part of what makes him a less available or desirable employee? Think about it. Is your family dynamic pushing him to be on a downsizing list? If so, you need to accept that as part & parcel of the arrangement you have.
Company is sold & she is mad that DH didn't act quicker due to his false hope of retention. Might be he was in denial because he did not want to deal with yet another lay-off? I am sure that his feelings of being a failure are exacerbated by a high performing, rock star spouse, that has not had to deal with a layoff. I wouldn't be too surprised if SO is actually dealing with depression.
I work in a high turn-over field, primarily due to outsourcing and resulting facility closures. It is the nature of the career I chose, which I did not predict 30 years ago when i started down the path. I am a key employee in the closure plans & retained to the last, but ultimately "loosing the job" is still an ego blow and sadness each time. My identity is too much tied to the job/workplace, so this is something I personally have to work on. It is difficult at 40 something to think about having to fully re-skill yourself . . . why can't I find that same kind of job that I soooo loved in my mid 30s keeps going through your head. If I could find that deal, I'd make decent money and be happy. Not reality, but I don't want to go back to school and lose income for a couple of years, so on I trudge with the knowledge that every 3-5 years I have to look for another job.
I have family members in IT and they have been forced/chosen to take lesser jobs, or jump divisions into less desirable jobs in order to have continuous employment. They both harbor a lot of resentment at their reduced circumstances, even though they are glad to have jobs. One works for a horrible management structure that doesn't even tell the managers when their staff is going to be laid off. So, while they look for other job options, so are hundreds of other competent people that have been laid off in the last couple years.
On the teaching thing, while he's unemployed he can register as a substitute teacher for your local school district. It would be a good way of testing the water to see if he loves/hates it before investing a couple of years in certification program.
My daughter is studying to be a HS teacher. She is mortified by the number of people saying that they'll use teaching as a 'fall back' career if they can't get a 'real job'. She is passionate about teaching and hates hearing people that aren't serious about it thinking it is easy and something they can do off the cuff. What a disservice to the students. You can see it in the Teach for America program already - they run non-teachers through a 6 week boot camp to ready them to teach. Most of the teachers in that program only last about 2 years and then they get out because it wasn't really as easy or desirable as they thought.
thecaptain - When does your DH need a cheerleader more than when he is laid off yet again? It does not sound like he stays unemployed for long periods, so I'd suck it up and play the cheerleader every 3 years in exchange for primary care trade-off!!
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 9, 2012 12:34:17 GMT -5
First off, job hunting isn't anywhere near a full time job, and if this guy can't be bothered to do a couple hours housework for the woman who is putting a roof over his head, then he is a leach and the OP is a fool to take it. (I know, I've been there.) If you want to stay with this guy, it's your decision, but do yourself and the world a favor and make sure you won't have any kids. The last thing you or the world needs is more children with parasitic fathers.
Secondly, (and I'm going to get flamed for this) having children with someone who is mentally fragile is a mistake. The kind of man you want to be the father of your children is the kind of man who will do real job hunting and pitch in around the house whether you are kissing his arse or not. Real men do the right thing. You two are going to go through a lot more traumatic and tragic events than a job loss, and once there are children in the picture, neither of you will have the luxury of being able to give into depression. Frankly, even if children aren't a possibility, it seems pointless to be committed to someone who is has shown himself to be unreliable.
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ontrack
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Post by ontrack on Apr 9, 2012 12:43:15 GMT -5
I believe they already have a child.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 9, 2012 13:08:22 GMT -5
fr99, I adore your frankness They do have a kiddo, though. thecaptain's SO is a part-time SAHD.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 9, 2012 13:30:11 GMT -5
I believe they already have a child. Just shove it back up her hoo-ha. Problem solved. I hate when advice centers around things you can't change, like when I already have a kid - telling me I should have never had a kid doesn't do me a whole lot of good at this point.
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telephus44
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Post by telephus44 on Apr 9, 2012 13:42:58 GMT -5
Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but he's been unemployed for 26 weeks total out of the last 10 years - so he's been employed 95% of the time. I don't see that as being a leech or just sponging off the OP.
Maybe it's just my perception, but OP seems to have a concrete plan for about 15 years in the future and she's worried about a few weeks of unemployment by her husband derailing it - I think that's just unrealistic. Things are going to come up and they can't all be circumvented by anticipating everything and being type A about it.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 9, 2012 13:46:46 GMT -5
If I were you, I would want him to change careers into something more stable before I retired. JMO. How are you going to feel when you are retired and are relying on him for health insurance and he gets laid off every 3 years? This is a great point. But he really needs to think it through and figure out what he can stick with long term before shelling out money and time to get going. They're not kids anymore; he doesn't have years and years on end to figure out what he would prefer to do. What works may be the BEST they can do. I tried to do this with DH when we first got married. He was in a field with fierce competetion, and he had a track record of being a good worker, but not being proactive about keeping his skills up to date, networking or getting freelance work on his own. So I thought having him go into a field where he could go to work and come home and not worry about layoffs made sense. It was a huge mistake. Changing careers is hard, and guys who aren't proactive about the careers they chose aren't going to pull off changing to something else.
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