swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 10:46:11 GMT -5
After dealing with these people, sometimes I really wonder whether or not they really get that there are consequences. You're right, they should know, but they just don't appear to get it. I think a lot of it has to do with drug use and the chemical changes that happen with the brain in an attempt to get a fix. The need for the fix overrides everything. Or no one has ever told the person "no" before in their life. And some just don't care. They live in the here and now. I have no idea how to fix it, it's just what I see.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 10:50:12 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with inmates doing work details. Frankly, they all should be working at some sort of job. I am a huge fan of work programs and prison farms as well as vocational programs in prisons. The problem becomes having enough staff to maintain these programs and keep them safe. You would be amazed at what walks out of the automotive pool and gets used as weapons. I used to prosecute the crimes committed in the 3 state prisons in the county where I live, and I never saw a weapon made from tools in automotive class, or any other class. It was usually razors taken from the single blade shaving razors and wrapped in duct tape, or a plastic toothbrush whittled down to a point. Can tops were a big one, as was a padlock in a sock. We had wires that were stripped down that were used to just about sever a guys head off when he was strangled.. Someone also managed to get a hold of some acid from a battery. I won't post the details about that one. We had tons of the toothbrush handle weapons as well. The powers that be stopped supplying them and instead the inmates got these rubber ones they could put on their finger to brush. Those ended up in some crazy place requiring surgical removal...ugh.
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 27, 2011 10:50:41 GMT -5
So I take it you are against things like traffic tickets, expulsions in schools and employees being terminated for violating company policies. These are all punishments with no rehabilitative goal...
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 27, 2011 10:58:54 GMT -5
This article says otherwise www.kuenselonline.com/2010/modules.php?sid=19991&file=article&name=News"However, majority of inmates within the tent city have not been convicted, rather, they are merely awaiting trial. According to jail officer Miller, inmates were detained for drug abuse, probation violation, drink driving and violation of traffic rules, and immigrant laws. “We, however, don’t keep criminals involved in serious crimes like murder or rape,” Miller said."
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 11:00:46 GMT -5
"After dealing with these people, sometimes I really wonder whether or not they really get that there are consequences. You're right, they should know, but they just don't appear to get it."
There is a pervasive dysfunctional pattern of thought which has been identified as "criminal thinking". They do not understand that A+B=C, and will continuously repeat their dysfunctional pattern not really understanding how they keep ending up there. CBT is helpful for these guys, but it isn't implemented often enough or on the necessary scale needed to be effective.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 27, 2011 11:02:00 GMT -5
I don't know if this is a high or low number, but they have paid out $43 million in wrongful death/injury lawsuits since Joe has been sheriff. No one has died due to heat yet, but they certainly have died for other reasons within the jails.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 11:03:32 GMT -5
So I take it you are against things like traffic tickets, expulsions in schools and employees being terminated for violating company policies. These are all punishments with no rehabilitative goal... I am against most traffic tickets as a violation of liberty. When a fault has been committed that is not arbitrary then the power of liberty (paying for your consequences) should be invoked. As for school or employee termination there is a difference in removing somebody from a specific place, i.e. school and employment and removing somebody from society. To take it one step further if somebody is terminated from a private company I don't care what the reason as nobody should be able to interfere with how a private company is run other than the management. Same goes for private schools. When a child is removed from a public school setting it is typically for the safety of the other children. Typically this child is then put into a school for at risk youth as an attempt for rehabilitation. Shall we discuss if that is school is air conditioned?
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 11:06:55 GMT -5
"Shall we discuss if that is school is air conditioned?"
Nice one!
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 27, 2011 11:08:42 GMT -5
There was hot weather before air-conditioning and the human race survived.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 11:11:28 GMT -5
There was hot weather before air-conditioning and the human race survived. Yeah, but they could go crawl in a cave when it got too hot. Or jump in a river. They weren't huddled in a tent with thousands of their closest friends.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 11:13:24 GMT -5
There was hot weather before air-conditioning and the human race survived. The human race also survived prior to the invention of x. Replace x with antibiotics, pacemakers, cars, airplanes, telephones, and manufactured clothing. What does the invention of x have to do with this particular argument? The native americans that lived in that portion of the US built adobe houes because of their thermal mass and delay of internal temperature as compared to outdoor temperature. So yes they survived, now what does that have to do with living in tents in the same conditions. Frankly I thought humans were smarter than that.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Jul 27, 2011 11:13:28 GMT -5
This article says otherwise www.kuenselonline.com/2010/modules.php?sid=19991&file=article&name=News"However, majority of inmates within the tent city have not been convicted, rather, they are merely awaiting trial. According to jail officer Miller, inmates were detained for drug abuse, probation violation, drink driving and violation of traffic rules, and immigrant laws. “We, however, don’t keep criminals involved in serious crimes like murder or rape,” Miller said." Joe's on-site journalism course needs improvement.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 27, 2011 12:02:17 GMT -5
Today at 11:08am, safeharbor37 wrote: There was hot weather before air-conditioning and the human race survived.
Yeah, but they could go crawl in a cave when it got too hot. Or jump in a river. They weren't huddled in a tent with thousands of their closest friends.
It's amazing [to me] that some people think that air-conditioning became a necessity at the end of the Paleolithic age.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 12:53:25 GMT -5
Today at 11:08am, safeharbor37 wrote: There was hot weather before air-conditioning and the human race survived. Yeah, but they could go crawl in a cave when it got too hot. Or jump in a river. They weren't huddled in a tent with thousands of their closest friends. It's amazing [to me] that some people think that air-conditioning became a necessity at the end of the Paleolithic age. Again air conditioning is not necessary but, construction has changed in a manner to be cheaper and require air conditioning. If you wish to build a house tent etc without air conditioning it should be done in a proper manner to keep the space tolerable. Tell me did the navajos use teepees?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 12:53:46 GMT -5
...I find it interesting that there is so much complaint and discussion about this... ...it's Arizona, people... it gets really, really hot there... so complain that the sheriff is subjecting these prisoners to 5-10 degrees more than they would in their caves, but that's less than a 5% increase in discomfort... ...and we're out of money... sometimes a great idea is simply cost prohibitive... what would the utility bills be to AC the place? does the electorate authorize that level of spending? if not, then go picket their streets... because they hold the purse-strings... correct?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 27, 2011 13:00:36 GMT -5
...it's Arizona, people... it gets really, really hot there... so complain that the sheriff is subjecting these prisoners to 5-10 degrees more than they would in their caves, but that's less than a 5% increase in discomfort... I disagree that we are talking about a 5% increase in discomfort. The difference between 80 & 90 might amount to a 5% increase in discomfort. The difference between sitting in a tent at 135 & 145 has to be astronomical. You are also seriously increasing the risk at heat stroke & death when you get to that level. Much like there isn't much difference between 40 & 30, maybe a 5% increase in discomfort. But the difference between 0 & -10 is much larger. Humans don't do well at the far ranges of temperature & a small change can have a huge impact.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 13:05:59 GMT -5
...if it's 115 outside, and 125 in the tent... that's around a 5% increase, correct? ...and if they can volunteer for some of these work projects, that get them into "better" conditions, they can do that, correct? ...wouldn't that be their proverbial cave to crawl into?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 27, 2011 13:12:33 GMT -5
...if it's 115 outside, and 125 in the tent... that's around a 5% increase, correct? You can't actually use temperature to calculate the increase because 0 is an arbitrary value. Calculating the answer in farenheit, celsius, & kelvins would all give you different answers. I am going based on how a 10 degree temperature change actually impacts the human body & a 10 degree temperature jump when you are talking about temperatures that high is far more significant than just 5%. Plus, we aren't necessarily talking just 10 degrees. What i read said the outdoor high was 118 & the tent measured 145. That is a 27 degree difference. I have no idea about the ability to serve on these crews. I imagine they don't work everyday & it might be difficult to even get on the list for better jobs & you may not even have the option if you are just awaiting trial. People I have known in jail say you always want to work jobs just because it takes away the monotony & makes days go faster & these weren't people trying to escape 130+ temperatures. So I imagine that everyone wants on these crews if it means escaping the heat.
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safeharbor37
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jul 27, 2011 13:14:16 GMT -5
Some of us remember when the only air-conditioning was in movie theaters [our local small town theater wasn't, but had a large exhaust fan at the rear of the theater [looked similar to the one in "The Last Picture Show." Later restaurants got A/C and most new home refrigerators had ice trays [before refrigerator/freezer combinations]. Of course some small towns had no A/C at all and "ice houses" were a main feature of the towns. I was in a town in south Georgia which had no a/c except in the local IGA grocery store and a convenience store in the 1970's. My elementary, Junior High, High School, and college classrooms and dormitories had no a/c. and temperatures frequently exceeded 100 degrees F in August when school started. Work in the summers were frequently in tin buildings or under tin roofs which radiated heat directly to the enclosure and which were for protection from the rain mainly, and thieves. Of course lumber yards frequently lacked proper safety equipment and so forth so this is not one of the "good old days" missives. The point is that many of today's necessities were not even available as luxuries just a few years ago. Mansions didn't have a/c ~ nobody did ~ but frequently had high ceilings and ceiling fans [usually Hunter]. Ever had a jailhouse baloney sandwich? Makes McDonald's look gourmet and discourages return visits. The US [and some other places] has made poverty and a life of crime too comfortable.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 14:00:50 GMT -5
Once again you try to equate the fact that deplorable conditions prevent recidivism which is simply not the case... How sad that you keep falling back on a tired incorrect argument Safe.
I noticed you also pointed out that building built prior to air conditioning had high ceilings... At least you get the fact that if you don't have air coniditioning you build your structure to suit. Now do you think a tent is a suitable structure in the desert? Did the navajos use teepees?
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 14:02:25 GMT -5
Angel the engineer in me requires that I point out that if you calculate the temperature differential in kelvin and celsius you get the same answer. Same with farenheit to rankine.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 27, 2011 14:16:00 GMT -5
Angel the engineer in me requires that I point out that if you calculate the temperature differential in kelvin and celsius you get the same answer. Same with farenheit to rankine. Temperature differential would be the same, you are correct. But BTDT was trying to calculate the increase in temperature as a % & then use that as the % increase in discomfort. All of those scales would find a different % increase in temperature, which was my point. A 5% increase in temperature is arbitrary & depends on the scale used & has absolutely no bearing on the increase in discomfort.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 14:21:54 GMT -5
You are correct angel, sorry.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jul 27, 2011 14:58:42 GMT -5
I just checked the weather forecast for Iraq (where my wonderful DH has been stationed in the past.) Tomorrow's forecast: 124 degrees. (The overnight low is 92).
He re-deploys back there in just a few more weeks.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 15:22:54 GMT -5
I just checked the weather forecast for Iraq (where my wonderful DH has been stationed in the past.) Tomorrow's forecast: 124 degrees. (The overnight low is 92). He re-deploys back there in just a few more weeks. ...and they definitely don't get the option to hang out in the tents with a wet washrag on their foreheads, huh?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 15:25:40 GMT -5
Angel the engineer in me requires that I point out that if you calculate the temperature differential in kelvin and celsius you get the same answer. Same with farenheit to rankine. Temperature differential would be the same, you are correct. But BTDT was trying to calculate the increase in temperature as a % & then use that as the % increase in discomfort. All of those scales would find a different % increase in temperature, which was my point. A 5% increase in temperature is arbitrary & depends on the scale used & has absolutely no bearing on the increase in discomfort. ...I was just trying to point out that the temperatures inside the tents are still relative to the outside temperatures... it's hot in Arizona... dang hot... Africa hot... and I still would rather sit in the shade of the tent rather than be sunburned to death in a couple days... ...I suppose I'm just curious how much % increase in discomfort the tent temperatures created... ...but I'm no Dr. or engineer or sheriff...
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 15:28:54 GMT -5
I just checked the weather forecast for Iraq (where my wonderful DH has been stationed in the past.) Tomorrow's forecast: 124 degrees. (The overnight low is 92). He re-deploys back there in just a few more weeks. ...and they definitely don't get the option to hang out in the tents with a wet washrag on their foreheads, huh? I would bet with the limited contingent left in iraq that very few military are housed in tents at this point.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 15:30:05 GMT -5
...and they definitely don't get the option to hang out in the tents with a wet washrag on their foreheads, huh? I would bet with the limited contingent left in iraq that very few military are housed in tents at this point. ...ooh, ooh... how much you wanna bet? ;D
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 27, 2011 15:30:56 GMT -5
...one MILLion dollars!
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 27, 2011 15:31:16 GMT -5
...and they definitely don't get the option to hang out in the tents with a wet washrag on their foreheads, huh? I would bet with the limited contingent left in iraq that very few military are housed in tents at this point. Exactly, Obama ended that war as promised within his first year in office...
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