swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 9:06:05 GMT -5
If you are sentenced to county jail, you would have been convicted of a misdemeanor or a low level felony. There was question whether those awaiting trial were subject to these living conditions. People were also saying that these were hardened criminals. No, they're usually just drunk and stupid.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 9:09:59 GMT -5
Poor, poor convicted criminals. Making life at jail hard and harsh, that is truly inhumane.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 9:17:48 GMT -5
Poor, poor convicted criminals. Making life at jail hard and harsh, that is truly inhumane. Does this satisfy a need for revenge? Or does it somehow make you feel better than the criminals? What purpose does it serve to make life difficult for a convicted criminal? Does it make it easier on the guards? Does it prevent recidivism?
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 9:29:34 GMT -5
Poor, poor convicted criminals. Making life at jail hard and harsh, that is truly inhumane. Does this satisfy a need for revenge? Or does it somehow make you feel better than the criminals? What purpose does it serve to make life difficult for a convicted criminal? Does it make it easier on the guards? Does it prevent recidivism? Neither. Criminals make a choice, just as I have had to make choices, I live with the choices I make, just as a convicted criminal must live with the choices that they make. Should one not want another to make needed decisions for them they need to accept the responsibility for the actions they have taken. Why should a convict get to sit on his rear, watching tv, eating enough, in A/C while the majority of people who are in the work force must work in order to provide these basic needs for themselves. Make Jail/Prison less of an enjoyable stay and people will do what is required to not go back. Look at recidivism rates, look at what is offered for those who are in jail then look at what someone who is not in jail who does work for a living must do to get these benefits. Make it less appealing and people will "try" to stay away.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 9:36:13 GMT -5
Does this satisfy a need for revenge? Or does it somehow make you feel better than the criminals? What purpose does it serve to make life difficult for a convicted criminal? Does it make it easier on the guards? Does it prevent recidivism? Neither. Criminals make a choice, just as I have had to make choices, I live with the choices I make, just as a convicted criminal must live with the choices that they make. Should one not want another to make needed decisions for them they need to accept the responsibility for the actions they have taken. Why should a convict get to sit on his rear, watching tv, eating enough, in A/C while the majority of people who are in the work force must work in order to provide these basic needs for themselves. Make Jail/Prison less of an enjoyable stay and people will do what is required to not go back. Look at recidivism rates, look at what is offered for those who are in jail then look at what someone who is not in jail who does work for a living must do to get these benefits. Make it less appealing and people will "try" to stay away. sucks for the guards that have to work in those conditions, though..............
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Jul 27, 2011 9:36:27 GMT -5
December 17, 2006 Arpaio has been in his current job for 14 years. He says the recidivism rate for his prison facility, located in the outskirts of Phoenix, Arizona, is about the national average, or, 60-70%. Arpaio calls drugs the greatest driver of crime in the nation. With that, he has instituted a program called ALPHA. The drug program for inmates results in a recidivism rate among graduates in the area of only 13-15%. Arpaio also runs a high school/GED program and an English speaking program. "The inmates need to speak English; my guards don't need to speak Spanish. We're in America." www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/sherriff_joe_arpaio.htmlI was thinking the harsh conditions would be more of a deterrent.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 9:37:18 GMT -5
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 9:39:52 GMT -5
That's not exactly a novel concept. Most jails have a GED and other educational programs. I live out in the middle of nowhere and our jail has one.
LOL! I wonder how many of the guards actually can speak Spanish. I would bet quite a few do.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 9:41:17 GMT -5
cme is making the mistake of seeing this through the eyes of a middle class person who is afraid of jail and would lose everything if he got convicted of a crime. Most of the people who go to jail don't have a lot to lose and a criminal conviction means nothing for them. It's a completely different mindset.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 9:45:39 GMT -5
cme is making the mistake of seeing this through the eyes of a middle class person who is afraid of jail and would lose everything if he got convicted of a crime. Most of the people who go to jail don't have a lot to lose and a criminal conviction means nothing for them. It's a completely different mindset. Nope cme sees it through the eyes of one who has sent his flesh and blood to prison. Cme sees it through eyes that understand we are a society of law and when the law is not upheld we get to the point of over saturation where we are now. Cme sees it through the eyes of one who has worked for what he has. Cme sees it through the eyes of one who has been less than one step away from the metal bars that would have locked him in for a very long time. Cme isn't seeing through eyes of fear, but eyes that have been open for a very long time.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 27, 2011 9:50:15 GMT -5
If air conditioning is a right, I would hope someone would tell all the colleges that they need to air condition their dorms. I never visited a college that DIDN'T have at least some dorms not air conditioned.
I guess some people think that conditions for innmates should be better than your average college freshmen, or that prision is actually supposed to be prison and not a vacation.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 9:51:37 GMT -5
In the grand scheme of things CME I want criminals held liable for their crimes. I also want something better than a revolving door on the prison. Do harsher jail environments close the revolving door, the answer appears to be no.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 9:53:05 GMT -5
cme, you're missing the point. I don't feel bad for criminals. I represent them, and I've had it up to here (neck area) with sob stories and whines and "it's not my fault" and "the cops hate me." I'm just pointing out that they think completely differently from you and me, people who have something to lose from a criminal convictions.
I also don't think committing a crime warrants being subjected to inhumane treatment. TAke away the TV, no problem. Make them work, no problem, but don't keep them in a sauna.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 10:01:28 GMT -5
cme, you're missing the point. I don't feel bad for criminals. I represent them, and I've had it up to here (neck area) with sob stories and whines and "it's not my fault" and "the cops hate me." I'm just pointing out that they think completely differently from you and me, people who have something to lose from a criminal convictions. I also don't think committing a crime warrants being subjected to inhumane treatment. Take away the TV, no problem. Make them work, no problem, but don't keep them in a sauna. Many people live without Air conditioning. Many Parishes in La. have none, My Cousins Parrish of Jena has exactly 7 business who have no AC and bring in plenty of customers. We have a mod who lives in Cali where they have an average of 100 days with temps over 100 who doesn't have an AC. Air Conditioning and Living indoors is not a right. 3 hots and a cot is what they get, if said criminals do not like it, do not make it a habit. Addicts are not allowed access to drugs which when facing withdrawls is inhumane, most jails/prisons do not allow you to smoke cigarettes which is more addictive than heroin and is not allowed in to most facilities anymore that must be inhumane to the smoker. All above is to show what some may call inhumane is just desires that want to be fulfilled.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 10:03:17 GMT -5
If air conditioning is a right, I would hope someone would tell all the colleges that they need to air condition their dorms. I never visited a college that DIDN'T have at least some dorms not air conditioned. I guess some people think that conditions for innmates should be better than your average college freshmen, or that prision is actually supposed to be prison and not a vacation. When was the last time you visited a major state funded college? Most colleges these days are trying to keep up with their peers. Building new dorms as fast as they can with suite style housing, lots of amenities and of course air conditioning.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 10:05:27 GMT -5
[quote[ Many people live without Air conditioning.
Many Parishes in La. have none, My Cousins Parrish of Jena has exactly 7 business who have no AC and bring in plenty of customers. We have a mod who lives in Cali where they have an average of 100 days with temps over 100 who doesn't have an AC. [/quote]
But they can leave if they need to.
We'll agree to disagree on this one.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 10:10:09 GMT -5
[quote[ Many people live without Air conditioning. Many Parishes in La. have none, My Cousins Parrish of Jena has exactly 7 business who have no AC and bring in plenty of customers. We have a mod who lives in Cali where they have an average of 100 days with temps over 100 who doesn't have an AC. But they can leave if they need to. We'll agree to disagree on this one. [/quote] Yes and why can they leave swamp?
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 10:11:53 GMT -5
Again CME as I pointed out, how does lack of air conditioning reduce or increase recidivism? Should a decrease in recidivism be the goal of all prisons?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 10:13:43 GMT -5
cme, I don't know what you want from me. They committed a crime and belong in jail. I've got no problem with that, but continuous exposure to 128 degree heat is dangerous for both the inmates and the guards. I don't think they should be kept at a comfortable 70 degrees all the time, but 128 is excessive.
That's my opinion. You're free to ignore me. And please do.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 10:16:10 GMT -5
cme, I don't know what you want from me. They committed a crime and belong in jail. I've got no problem with that, but continuous exposure to 128 degree heat is dangerous for both the inmates and the guards. I don't think they should be kept at a comfortable 70 degrees all the time, but 128 is excessive. That's my opinion. You're free to ignore me. And please do. I choose not to ignore you, I like what you say always have. We agree to disagree. Please don't get upset.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 10:24:04 GMT -5
Again CME as I pointed out, how does lack of air conditioning reduce or increase recidivism? Should a decrease in recidivism be the goal of all prisons? Yes all prisons should work toward less recidivism. with a recidivism rate of 60+% and an average of 600,000 people let out per year Prisons should be looking at ways to stop people coming back. As you pointed out, a study was done it in itself states that it was a small study that the authors "believe" shows what they are thinking. I do not believe in coddling criminals period. If you broke the law and were found guilty you should be treated roughly (not physically or mentally) life should not be easy, it shouldn't be a hang out time with your homies, it should be punishment. Again this is what I feel, this is what I think. You can choose to agree or disagree, you can choose to read or not read. Convicted Criminals made a choice, I want them to pay for there crimes, I do not want them coddled, I want them to see there are other choices that can be made.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 10:26:41 GMT -5
CME did you or do you have kids? When my kids do something wrong I punish them to help them understand there are consequences and to learn from their mistakes I don't punish to make them pay for their crimes. I think of criminals in the same way.
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 10:34:55 GMT -5
Ultimately, the government responsible to carry out an incarceration is responsible for the care, custody and control of an inmate, be it state federal or local. These conditions of 120+ degree heat can promote an atmosphere of unsafe conditions for the people who work as guards. With regard to our troops, they are vigorously trained and have access to state of the art medical care during this training to determine their suitability for working in the particular theater we are currently in. Inmates are not screened nor trained for this particular type of incarceration conditions. The recidivism rates for this sheriffs methods are no different than anywhere else in our penal system.
What folks fail to realize when they get on the soap box of prisoners and coddling treatments and how they should be made to pay for their crimes and take responsibility for their actions and so on and so on, our current system of incarcerating inmates isn't working. Recidivism is high, and we are spending an enormous amount of money on something that simply isn't working. Jails and prisons are extremely dangerous environments for the inmates as well as the people who work in them. Something needs to change.
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 27, 2011 10:35:29 GMT -5
I live near Folsom prison in Northern California, and in the past (5+ years ago), the prisoners used to work near the prison grounds picking up trash on the streets, removing dead trees, mowing down the dry grass in the summer, etc. They were being productive while incarcerated, in other words. These were not the hardcore criminals, either. This duty was considered a privilege and was given only to non-violent offenders who exhibited good behavior. They wanted this work, as it got them outside the walls and in the sun for a few hours.
Well, this being the liberal utopia of Kalifornia, at some point the state decided this activity was inhumane, so now the prisoners stay inside the prison walls being unproductive, and the trash pickup and landscape maintenance is done by city employees who are probably paid in the neighborhood of $40 an hour (plus overtime, of course) to do the job the prisoners did for free.
Liberals, ya gotta love 'em...
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 10:40:50 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with inmates doing work details. Frankly, they all should be working at some sort of job. I am a huge fan of work programs and prison farms as well as vocational programs in prisons. The problem becomes having enough staff to maintain these programs and keep them safe. You would be amazed at what walks out of the automotive pool and gets used as weapons. When inmates leave their point of incarceration with a marketable skill, they are less likely to be a frequent guest at the gray bar hotel.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 10:41:41 GMT -5
Not that NY is a utopia, but California does some really stupid shit.........
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cereb
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Post by cereb on Jul 27, 2011 10:42:58 GMT -5
Not that NY is a utopia, but California does some really stupid shit......... Agreed. One giant box of flaky puffs.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on Jul 27, 2011 10:43:17 GMT -5
CME did you or do you have kids? When my kids do something wrong I punish them to help them understand there are consequences and to learn from their mistakes I don't punish to make them pay for their crimes. I think of criminals in the same way. Magichat, I do not believe that you can take raising children and Adult criminals in the same context. A child generally doesn't know better, so yes you punish them to help them learn from their mistakes. An adult should know that actions have consequences, learning from their mistakes in prison is punishment for there crimes. The two are mutually exclusive.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 27, 2011 10:43:57 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with inmates doing work details. Frankly, they all should be working at some sort of job. I am a huge fan of work programs and prison farms as well as vocational programs in prisons. The problem becomes having enough staff to maintain these programs and keep them safe. You would be amazed at what walks out of the automotive pool and gets used as weapons. I used to prosecute the crimes committed in the 3 state prisons in the county where I live, and I never saw a weapon made from tools in automotive class, or any other class. It was usually razors taken from the single blade shaving razors and wrapped in duct tape, or a plastic toothbrush whittled down to a point. Can tops were a big one, as was a padlock in a sock.
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Post by magichat on Jul 27, 2011 10:45:51 GMT -5
Adults understand that their actions have consequences and sometimes continually and habitually commit crimes and end up with those consequences. Even in Sheriff Joe's tent city I bet there are plenty that have been there multiple times. Punishment for the sake of punishment isn't helping society....
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