cme1201
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Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 7:21:46 GMT -5
And you are correct, some will win and some will lose. The difference is how many of the "losers" try to change their situation.
No I believe that you are wrong on this front, it does not dismantle itself, no one has said that someone on welfare lives will be peachy keen, what I have seen said is that if we enable those who can to not do they can not or will not better themselves.
Before admitting the the American Dream "cannot be had by all" you need to set up the parameters of what exactly the American Dream is, from what I understand the American Dream is Life: (the government cannot kill you simply because) Liberty: (freedom to make mistakes, freedom to try and freedom to fail) and the Pursuit of Happiness: (you can try and fail to get happy, your happiness is is not guaranteed, just the opportunity to purse what will make you happy)
You need to show me where the conservatives have said no safety net, I have seen a reduction to safety net programs, I have seen proposals shifting the onus way from government being the end all be all for everyone and placing a little more responsibility into the hands of the people.
When Clinton and the Republican Congress re did the Welfare laws in the 90's seems we had more people working and less people sucking on the government tit, limiting the amount of welfare that years one could be on is an incentive for those who can to do, those who truly cannot do have been and will always be taken care of.
At some point in time, many liberals will need to look at the math, simple unadulterated math and see that continuing the way we are (minimal taxes for a large portion of the population, welfare, social security, Medicare/Medicaid, tax havens and tax breaks for middle to high income) a time is going to come that the US cannot pay for every program passed in the last 100 years, even if they tax the top 10% of the workforce at 99% effective rate.
A comprehensive plan that includes Tax increases and deep spending cuts is in reality the only way we can get back to a solvent financial state.
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Shirina
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Card carrying member of the Kitty Klub!!
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Post by Shirina on May 29, 2011 7:44:26 GMT -5
You're missing my point. There will always losers no matter how often someone "changes their situation." Someone may "change their situation" a dozen times and still not succeed. People like you apparently think that "changing your situation" is as easy as changing your shirt, but we all know that isn't true. Often times these changes take money or time, something the working poor do not have in abundance.
Yes, it dismantles it, and no, that's not what I said. What I said was that "bettering yourself" or "changing your situation" does not guarantee success. When someone ahead of you pays for their groceries with food stamps, you haven't the foggiest notion how many times they've tried, but sooner or later, one runs out of resources and they get stuck. You seem to think that "bettering one's self," which I assume means going to school or learning a trade, is an instant ticket to success, but if it were that easy, then most of us would be successful.
If that is all the American Dream is, then every citizen already has it. However, I'm going to assume that when Krickitt said the American Dream can't be had by all, she didn't mean that some Americans would not have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Therefore, in this context, I believe your definition falls short.
I would assert that the American Dream contains the following: home ownership, marriage to a good spouse, several children, a well-paying and satisfying career, etc. Of course, not everyone's dream follows these lines exactly, but generally, these are the things people strive for. Yes, we have all the abstract things like safety and security, freedom, democracy, etc., but most citizens have all of those things. They don't have to achieve them.
Unfortunately I do not keep track of who says what most of the time, but I do recall seeing a poster proclaim in no uncertain terms that if he had his way, there would be NO welfare (the "no" was even in caps). It may have been in one of the disaster-related threads. No conservative disagreed. Silence implies consent.
We actually had a semi-prosperous economy under Clinton which may have had something to do with it.
We will never get back to a solvent financial state. Ever. I'm not saying we shouldn't give it the ole college try, but expecting a time when there is no deficit spending is a pipe dream. The bottom line is that everything costs too much. Prices cannot continue rising ad infinitum because, if they do, the government will have to keep making ever more cuts until there's nothing left except for a Third World landscape. Something has to give.
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cme1201
Junior Associate
Tennis Elbow, Jock Itch, and Athletes Foot, every man has a sports life!
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Post by cme1201 on May 29, 2011 8:42:43 GMT -5
Everything you list Shinria is a pursuit, 50% of marriages end in divorce, Home-Ownership comes with both pleasure and pain, Good paying jobs cannot be labled because it is subjective, one who make 500,000 and bills of 1.5 million is just as poor as the man who makes minimum wage and struggles aycheck to paycheck. Conversly there are people who are living on 18k a year and providing happy homes for there offspring.
Nothing is guaranteed, all you can do is put forth your best effort and make due with what you have. As you better yourself you better your situation, demanding that government supply all your needs is no way to continue the "American Dream".
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Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 12:39:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 8:20:12 GMT -5
Your point would only be valid in the strictest sense, a radically literal interpretation of what I said. It would be the equivalent of calling an activist against racism a bigot against bigots. While technically true, no one seriously views it that way. There are a lot of radically right-wing sites on the internet that routinely publish extreme conservative babble. If you believe in such babble, the naturally you'll take offense. But to most sane individuals, the inflammatory rhetoric that comes from these sites is, in fact, babble. Essentially saying I'm extreme for calling an extreme view point extreme really doesn't hold up. So basically you're labeling a far right viewpoint as "extreme conservative babble", and justifying it by calling someone who might agree with it as "insane". Yet you also feel your viewpoint from the left isn't extreme. I can see where moderates and the right will feel that this is Elitism coming from the left.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 12:47:01 GMT -5
The problem as i see it, is the entitlement mentality
Too many think they are "owed" something.....when the reality is, they are owed nothing more than the chance to succeed
Poor decision making leads to poor outcomes....no education, no skills, and no money
Too many see their situation as bleak...so why even try? This is the attitude that has to change
I have no issue giving a hand up as they say....job training, college loans, work programs, etc
I have major issues in just giving hand outs...where the receiver never has to change their situation
And then one welfare case begets three more cases, and so on.....
We have to end the cycle.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 12:49:58 GMT -5
<<<<<<<<Quote:We will never get back to a solvent financial state. Ever. I'm not saying we shouldn't give it the ole college try, but expecting a time when there is no deficit spending is a pipe dream. The bottom line is that everything costs too much. Prices cannot continue rising ad infinitum because, if they do, the government will have to keep making ever more cuts until there's nothing left except for a Third World landscape. Something has to give. >>>>>>>> Well Shirina lets see, we have quantitative easing that helps reduce the interest on the Feds debt, but also reduces the value of the dollar for everyone. The ones in the lower income levels are the ones that get hurt the most by this. This of course creates ever larger numbers of people becoming dependent on the government for the handouts. This then translates into more government spending and more debt. As the cycle continues the very programs that are helping the down-trodden are also impoverishing them even more. Answer?
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safeharbor37
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Joined: Dec 20, 2010 23:18:19 GMT -5
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Post by safeharbor37 on Jun 3, 2011 18:47:45 GMT -5
The problem with talking about "liberals" is that it's difficult to define or classify "liberal" since those who've adopted the name are actually something else; populist?, progressive, socialist, communist, authoritarian, ... Whatever. The name constantly changes but tends to return to "liberal," "progressive," etc. because those names have positive connotations, whereas some of the others don't - at least to Americans in general. Genuine liberalism is pretty much idealism whereas conservatism is more realism. There's obviously a need for both attitudes even if they tend to create controversy and conflict since, in our society, those things can be resolved peacefully and amicably [they can't in some countries/cultures, but that's one of the superiorities of the "American Way"]. The current problem is that those who are generally classified as "liberal" and who are more likely to classify themselves as "liberal" are generally not liberal at all, but tend to authoritarianism hoping to impose their will on everyone else. Conservatives, whatever their other flaws, generally are satisfied to leave others alone and be content to do their own thing. Unfortunately, it is necessary in a democratic society to recruit support for ones positions or submit to the better organized opposition so there are many [most?] who aren't really liberal or conservative but simply follow whichever side promises the most. Politically, the issue is between a government philosophy which relies on the private sector, capitalism, initiative, etc. and a government philosophy which relies on government central planning. Liberals tend to believe that rights and other good things are the product of government while conservatives tend to believe that individual initiative is the source of good things and the purpose of government is to facilitate the individual rather than to control him. Conservatives tend to prefer minimum government [not no government] while I've never noticed a philosophical limit placed by liberals on the power or extent of government.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2011 18:58:02 GMT -5
SAFE!! Are you back now? Hope all is well with you.
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Post by marshabar1 on Jun 7, 2011 14:57:48 GMT -5
May 26, 2011, 11:31pm, Shirina wrote:
A note to the moderators:
To be perfectly succinct, I am well past the point of being patient with posts like the one above. Now, I realize that "palmbeachpaul" was not the original author of those words, but his propensity for posting these sorts of politically bigoted and hateful articles is undeniably offensive to any liberal, and perhaps to some conservatives, as well.
His actions may not have directly violated the terms of use, so I am not necessarily requesting moderator intervention, yet at the same time, I must express my total disgust and revulsion at having to see this kind of trash repeated here on this board. I normally keep a level head in political discussions, but in regards to seeing this type of offensive propaganda, that may very well change.
I felt I should point out that I am as much offended by this article and it's reproduction here as I would be if I had been a victim of a racial slur.
And yes, I honestly do feel that offended.
Quote Moonbeam:
Shirina, we seem to have a lot of people whose main interest here is ONLY to stir the pot.. who enjoy saying "ALL people of this group do/think/say ...whatever it might be"... to be honest, i'm sick of it too and i'm about to hit my limit. there is going to come a time, in the very near future i expect, where i develop a sudden zero tolerance policy. when i do, there will be people out the door permanently with no warning.
Are these the ones who will be barred from consideration for moderator? The "pot stirrers" who post political opinions that disturb people who disagree?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 7, 2011 15:33:09 GMT -5
The problem with talking about "liberals" is that it's difficult to define or classify "liberal" since those who've adopted the name are actually something else; populist?, progressive, socialist, communist, authoritarian, ... Whatever. The name constantly changes but tends to return to "liberal," "progressive," etc. because those names have positive connotations, whereas some of the others don't - at least to Americans in general. Genuine liberalism is pretty much idealism whereas conservatism is more realism. There's obviously a need for both attitudes even if they tend to create controversy and conflict since, in our society, those things can be resolved peacefully and amicably [they can't in some countries/cultures, but that's one of the superiorities of the "American Way"]. The current problem is that those who are generally classified as "liberal" and who are more likely to classify themselves as "liberal" are generally not liberal at all, but tend to authoritarianism hoping to impose their will on everyone else. Conservatives, whatever their other flaws, generally are satisfied to leave others alone and be content to do their own thing. Unfortunately, it is necessary in a democratic society to recruit support for ones positions or submit to the better organized opposition so there are many [most?] who aren't really liberal or conservative but simply follow whichever side promises the most. Politically, the issue is between a government philosophy which relies on the private sector, capitalism, initiative, etc. and a government philosophy which relies on government central planning. Liberals tend to believe that rights and other good things are the product of government while conservatives tend to believe that individual initiative is the source of good things and the purpose of government is to facilitate the individual rather than to control him. Conservatives tend to prefer minimum government [not no government] while I've never noticed a philosophical limit placed by liberals on the power or extent of government. Well, classical liberalism is conservatism mixed with libertarianism. Liberals adopted it in order to disguise themselves as something they weren't, aren't, and never will be... But don't take my word for it, take the word of American SOCIALIST, Norman Thomas: "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." We didn't knowingly elect this far left president, and now that the mask is off and the people know who he is, he will NEVER get re-elected.
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hello fromWarsaw
Senior Member
Hiya! Wake UP!!
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 7, 2011 16:11:29 GMT -5
Far left? Hahahahahahahahaha
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jun 7, 2011 16:41:33 GMT -5
You prefer the term ultra left wing?
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hello fromWarsaw
Senior Member
Hiya! Wake UP!!
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Post by hello fromWarsaw on Jun 7, 2011 18:19:49 GMT -5
I prefer the truth, like moderates and right wing nut jobs
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Post by ed1066 on Jun 7, 2011 19:48:05 GMT -5
I prefer the truth, like moderates and right wing nut jobs There goes the next board admin...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jun 7, 2011 22:40:52 GMT -5
I prefer the truth, like moderates and right wing nut jobs There goes the next board admin...
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Driftr
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Post by Driftr on Jun 8, 2011 11:15:40 GMT -5
Say it enough times and someone might believe you.
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