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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 12:59:27 GMT -5
Don't use it, P.I. If I have something to say to you, I'll say it clearly. There will be nothing veiled about it. Krickitt can vouch for that. We've posted together for years. Well then let me make myself clear Ma'am...I don't appreciate all of your insults...as you know and spare us with all of your pontificating...and holier than thou attitude.....
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 13:01:04 GMT -5
If you don't feel there's anything interesting being posted unless a certain cadre of people are present and posting, there are going to be dead times for you, krickitt. Personally, I do find it interesting, and often challenging to read different viewpoints. Sometimes, it will cause me to stop and think about my stance on an issue. I've changed my mind a few times because someone said something that added a new twist to an issue which I hadn't considered. People can disagree and still come out of a conversation with something worthwhile to think about.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 13:01:38 GMT -5
I'm not overly concerned with what you appreciate, P.I.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 13:02:06 GMT -5
Krickitt:
This has nothing to do with disliking specific individuals. It has to do with not liking what specific individuals are saying, and apparently, I'm not alone in this, judging by comments left in support.
I know it is a common tactic for forum posters to spew all sorts of rhetoric and hate, then cry about free speech violations if a moderator clamps down on it. One must realize that an internet forum is not a bastion of free speech, and they never were. Other than ProBoards, this is "moonbeam's" site and she makes the rules. Essentially we are all in her house, and she does have the right to limit what we say. We also all have the right to leave this site if we feel her moderation is too heavy-handed. That's the way it works.
I think we all enjoy a good political debate, and I think we've all been around the cyber block enough times to know which materials will promote debate and discussion and which materials will simply cause a flame fest.
An article that lambastes ALL liberals as envious, America-hating, Jew-hating, God-hating degenerates does not promote anything but disgust and revulsion. Now, if someone wishes to levy these accusations against a specific person or small group of people, then we can debate/discuss. Otherwise, blanket accusations are a sign of intellectual laziness, something the author of that article should think about before polluting the internet with similar rubbish.
But I'm certainly not going waste time writing up a defense of liberals on behalf of all liberals when the charges are so extreme. Besides, how could any liberal ever disprove those accusations aside from becoming a conservative? It's impossible and, therefore, not worth debating.
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 13:03:38 GMT -5
Sorry, paul, but I'm not going to sit here and tell other people what they think and why they think it. I'm neither conservative, nor liberal; however, I'm smart enough to know I don't know what others think unless they tell me, and I don't know why they think the way they do unless they tell me.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:03:43 GMT -5
This message has been deleted. P.I. speaking to other posters in such a manner will earn you a vacation. Deminmaine- Moderator
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 13:07:13 GMT -5
P.I., ol' sod, you have no idea what my purpose here is. You don't know me and you won't know me. You have no way of knowing anything about me. If you'd like to think you do, more power to you. In fact, you know nothing of me and nothing of my purpose for being here. If you feel demeaned and degraded, look to yourself. I don't know anything about you, either. I do, however, know if I agree with what you say, or not. That, I'll be happy to share anytime I wish to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:07:46 GMT -5
My point is made by looking at the board today. There are no active discussions going on. It has nothing to do with who I like or dislike. It has to do with politics being about differences in opinion, and if there are none there is no discussion.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:09:21 GMT -5
P.I., ol' sod, you have no idea what my purpose here is. You don't know me and you won't know me. You have no way of knowing anything about me. If you'd like to think you do, more power to you. In fact, you know nothing of me and nothing of my purpose for being here. If you feel demeaned and degraded, look to yourself. I don't know anything about you, either. I do, however, know if I agree with what you say, or not. That, I'll be happy to share anytime I wish to do so. Then why have you posted so many personal attacks ?? Is that your thing??
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 13:09:52 GMT -5
palmbeachpaul
Of course those ideas are impossible to refute. I've admitted as much in my previous post. However, the impossibility does not exist in the way you think it does.
Explain to me, Paul: How does one prove her love for America? What actions would I have to take, what words must I speak, to satisfy your parameters regarding what love for America actually means? I have a suspicion that marching in lockstep with your own personal ideology is the only guarantor of a passing grade.
How does one prove her love, or at least non-hatred, of Israel? Does it require the abandonment of critically analyzing Israel's actions? Must we simply agree to everything Israel does without question or thought? It sure seems as if this is the case.
How does one prove her love to anyone other than the one who is loved? How would you prove to me that you love your mother? You can't. In the same vein it is impossible for anyone to prove their love of anything or anyone to someone else. It is a thoroughly ridiculous notion.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:12:09 GMT -5
I hope so, Dem. I am homebound right now, and it is boring here today.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:12:54 GMT -5
This message is deleted. Deminmaine- Moderator
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 13:15:25 GMT -5
Frankly, I'm enjoying the conversations currently taking place. Deltaman's return was a real bonus to my day! This thread is interesting and allows a good exchange of views; especially, if nobody is here to try to turn it into a "shooting match". While you might find the lack of constant contention boring, I find it a good chance to look a bit deeper into people than just their political outlook. Different strokes for different folks. mmhmm....I enjoy that too. I'm just sick of the sideways comments and attitudes coming from posters with extreme opinions on both sides. some are definitely louder than others. Many of those chiver are done with a bit of tongue in cheek thoughts behind them, and being adults with verbal skills, usually those are taken as given, though sometimes by not being able to see facialn or body language, at tikes the comments may be understood. However with that said, I think what has been expressed here by some as to the tone of the zone, the average reader understand exactly what is going down here, the concerns and the actions of those who like to stir it up for the sake iof stirring it up, very apparent.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:16:52 GMT -5
We DO have several posters that have said they have little interest in politics, yet continue to post here, and often post to or about individual posters rather than political ideas.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:19:07 GMT -5
mmhmm....I enjoy that too. I'm just sick of the sideways comments and attitudes coming from posters with extreme opinions on both sides. some are definitely louder than others. Many of those chiver are done with a bit of tongue in cheek thoughts behind them, and being adults with verbal skills, usually those are taken as given, though sometimes by not being able to see facialn or body language, at tikes the comments may be understood. However with that said, I think what has been expressed here by some as to the tone of the zone, the average reader understand exactly what is going down here, the concerns and the actions of those who like to stir it up for the sake iof stirring it up, very apparent. The world according to deziloooooo....
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:20:13 GMT -5
Politics is about stirring it up. If a political message board sounds like NPR it is not a political message board. If people want sameness, Democratic Underground is the board to post on. No conservatives allowed. Period.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 13:22:44 GMT -5
"All of liberalism is rooted in the mutually exclusive ideas that a broad swath of humanity is not fit for self government, but that a few 'special' people are. It is rooted in a very deeply held believe that the winners in life are chosen at random, or worse- are chosen on purpose by God, or by a populace too stupid to recognize that they're making decisions against their own interests. And of course the solution is to "equalize" things; to make things "fair" and that the only arbiter of what is fair is an all-powerful central government.
They talk a good game. You can get liberals to agree that there should be a such thing as free speech so long as it is pornographic- or at least vulgar, and that they basically agree with it. You can get them to join the leave me alone coalition on drugs and abortion-- but never education, automobiles, or even light bulbs."
I totally disagree with your belief of what liberalism is and what it stands for. I personally would like to strike down the electoral college which IMO does further the idea that people can not be fully trusted to elect the President from the popular vote. Yet neither political party has tried to get rid of it and I think it is for a self serving reason. If you can figure out which states you have won its easier to win the Presidency instead of if you need to win by sheer numbers alone.
I'm not happy about the light bulb thing but yes I think government should try to improve safety standards in cars, etc. It was Bush who came up with the no child left behind federal mandate for education, not some labeled liberal.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:25:48 GMT -5
We DO have several posters that have said they have little interest in politics, yet continue to post here, and often post to or about individual posters rather than political ideas. Tell me about it....I took @ four weeks off from this board because of all the personal attacks by deziloooooo, and mmhmm and now they both are claiming they are so perfect....give me a break.. I post my views about poltices here and don't need to be demeaned or degraded by those who are not able to express a coherent thought on anything at all..
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:30:04 GMT -5
Politics is about stirring it up. If a political message board sounds like NPR it is not a political message board. If people want sameness, Democratic Underground is the board to post on. No conservatives allowed. Period. Yes, politics is all about debate. This is NOT about shouting down conservatives. This is about being tired of posters- conservative OR liberal, who simply bash all people on the other side of the political fence with all sorts of trash talk, calling them all lying, stealing, haters, etc., etc. I think some of the most interesting posters on here are conservatives. (I won't name names). And we can all learn from others. But if constructive debate is shut down because one side or the other says "Oh you're all evil and wrong", nothing is learned or gained. Repeated over and over that exercize also gets very boring.[/quote ] As I said it is easy to have a discussion without taking cheap shots but it is not easy to keep ignoring those cheap shots from the same two posters here for the past six months.. C'mon deminmaine you know what is going on here..and what this board has become..
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 13:34:16 GMT -5
Who doesn't allow who what?? I don't see liberals being banned, chastised, anything else because conservatives are whining to mods. Do you? Show me where board conservatives are trying to stifle free speech. I think you were trying to stifle my comments on phrases I disagree with that Paul uses by pretending I and others had made this an attack thread. I do think there is one "liberal" that gets chastised regularly by mods because <gasp> mods are doing their job and reading the threads. Mods should be chastising and banning people based on their actions whether they find it themselves or get alerted by PM.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:34:22 GMT -5
FYI, Optimist-- there are those of us who see no real difference in Bush and Obama on major issues, and are not all that enamored of either, OR this global garbage movement that just switches out faces in the WH every few years while all the little people bicker over abortion and gay rights, etc.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 13:36:00 GMT -5
This is precisely the kind of thing that really irritates me about extreme conservative babble concerning liberals. In one sentence the author is proclaiming how liberals hate God, then later on, makes the claim that liberals believe people are chosen by God. Well, which is it?
The premise is so agonizingly flawed that it would take a dozen posts to really hammer away at good refutation, but I will say this much:
The illusion that liberals 'hate' God stems from the very true reality that most Atheists and Agnostics tend to fall on the left side of the political aisle. No one disputes that. However, how much time do you spend hating a concept you believe does not even exist? Again, the author equates lack of belief with hatred, a subtle and logically fallacious statement. If "paulmbeachpaul" really understood the liberal viewpoint, he would have seen the flaws himself and not posted the article.
Perhaps if the author had claimed that some liberals hate religion and many hate religion when it encroaches upon their freedoms, then this author may have built a more solid foundation from which to cast more stones.
As I said earlier, this sort of "shock jock" writing is filled with intellectual laziness. It is purposefully designed to get the conservatives all abuzz in the same way beating a hive with a stick will lure out the hornets. Those who actually believe in this sensationalist yellow journalism should seriously rethink their skills in critical analysis.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:37:15 GMT -5
Who doesn't allow who what?? I don't see liberals being banned, chastised, anything else because conservatives are whining to mods. Do you? Show me where board conservatives are trying to stifle free speech. I think you were trying to stifle my comments on phrases I disagree with that Paul uses by pretending I and others had made this an attack thread. I do think there is one "liberal" that gets chastised regularly by mods because <gasp> mods are doing their job and reading the threads. Mods should be chastising and banning people based on their actions whether they find it themselves or get alerted by PM. Oh really?? Mods can ban you for whatever reason they want..or because they received a PM with a complaint that was usually just a response to a cheap shot....it is called gamesmenship..
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 13:40:41 GMT -5
Politics is about stirring it up. If a political message board sounds like NPR it is not a political message board. If people want sameness, Democratic Underground is the board to post on. No conservatives allowed. Period. Actually NPR does a very , very good job with Political, one of the best of all the media, then you have Fox and..but for the third time, and I am sure you haven't read the other two times and if you have , your just not getting it krickett, the following is what the discussion is on this thread, the best discussion ever on this problem here , and if you do read it, and disagree, why not explain your objections to Shirina , the author of it, calmly, no emotion , just what is wrong about her observations. -------------------------------------------- A note to the moderators: To be perfectly succinct, I am well past the point of being patient with posts like the one above. Now, I realize that "palmbeachpaul" was not the original author of those words, but his propensity for posting these sorts of politically bigoted and hateful articles is undeniably offensive to any liberal, and perhaps to some conservatives, as well. His actions may not have directly violated the terms of use, so I am not necessarily requesting moderator intervention, yet at the same time, I must express my total disgust and revulsion at having to see this kind of trash repeated here on this board. I normally keep a level head in political discussions, but in regards to seeing this type of offensive propaganda, that may very well change. I felt I should point out that I am as much offended by this article and it's reproduction here as I would be if I had been a victim of a racial slur. And yes, I honestly do feel that offended. ----------------------------------------------------
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:43:42 GMT -5
I would never try to stifle your free speech, Optimist, whether or not I agree with it. I'm not wired that way, and you can ask any moderator how often I whine to mods. NEVER. I reported one time only, over a barrage of personal attacks. I have never once cried to a mod because I did not like the way someone is presenting their political views. Frankly, it is none of my business what others think or say and if I find someone impossible to talk to I just don't talk to them. I actually find very few people here impossible to talk to, even if I can only relate to them on some non-political issue, such as Lak and I having a discussion the other night about browsers that was just fine. I always take any opportunity I can to relate to people I disagree with in a common ground space. There is always a way, unless one has just made their mind up not to "like" anything about a poster.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 13:44:49 GMT -5
I think you were trying to stifle my comments on phrases I disagree with that Paul uses by pretending I and others had made this an attack thread. I do think there is one "liberal" that gets chastised regularly by mods because <gasp> mods are doing their job and reading the threads. Mods should be chastising and banning people based on their actions whether they find it themselves or get alerted by PM. Oh really?? Mods can ban you for whatever reason they want..or because they received a PM with a complaint that was usually just a response to a cheap shot....it is called gamesmenship.. Not sure about mods...now the supreme leader?? You betcha... {That comment by the way is considered a "tongue in cheek "comment, "according to dezilooooo", just in case your confused there fella.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:45:50 GMT -5
This post is deleted. Are you trying to get banned P.I.? Because you're pushing it. Deminmaine- Moderator
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:48:41 GMT -5
You don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over to me, Dezi. I can read. Many things I choose not to respond to, because to do so is just to get in to a ridiculous blahblahblah. Waste of time.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 13:48:50 GMT -5
I've never posted anything ban worthy here or on MSN so I can't speak from first hand experience. I spend more time on EE and haven't seen an unwarranted banning yet.
I will say you PI tend to see attacks when there aren't any. There was a questionable phrase that probably shouldn't have been used towards you, but an attack not really.
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:51:53 GMT -5
This message is deleted. Deminmaine- Moderator
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