Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 13:58:02 GMT -5
"FYI, Optimist-- there are those of us who see no real difference in Bush and Obama on major issues, and are not all that enamored of either,"
I am one of these people which is why I have a hard time with some of the comments posted here like Obama is far left, trying to make us a socialist country, etc. I would have preferred to have Hillary in office as I think she would have been more moderate and more experienced. I remember when some of my friends were all excited about the hope and change of Obama and I just laughed to myself.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 13:58:05 GMT -5
Shirina, In your post #90 You made clear your dislike of Post #1. Yet in post #148 you're using terms like "Extreme conservative babble". Me being a down the middle moderate, Post # 1 is no different than # 148. Just opposite ends of the spectrum trying to annoy the other. Answer?
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burnsattornincan
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Post by burnsattornincan on May 27, 2011 13:58:11 GMT -5
I'm working on a tough case today so not much time but I would just like to reiterate my utmost respect and support for true patriotic real Americans such Mr. palmbeachpaul and the esteemed Mr. P.I.
Dalton McGuinty Burns III
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Post by privateinvestor on May 27, 2011 13:58:17 GMT -5
This post is deleted. Are you trying to get banned P.I.? Because you're pushing it. Deminmaine- Moderator Just telling it like it is Deminmaine or just venting off some steam...so time for a jog.. But I think I got my few points across Take Care all.. enjoy the weekend and go Bruins tonight.. P.I.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 14:05:15 GMT -5
Have a good weekend, PI.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 14:11:34 GMT -5
You don't have to keep saying the same thing over and over to me, Dezi. I can read. Many things I choose not to respond to, because to do so is just to get in to a ridiculous blahblahblah. Waste of time. So guess you didn't get her post, [sigh] to bad , ok....
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 27, 2011 14:15:40 GMT -5
Very few people posting this morning. Hard to post when the boss gives a message that some people are soon to be disappeared without warning. The political conversation is ABOUT differences. If EVERYBODY walked in lockstep to one idea there would be no politics to discuss. The conservatives on the board that are disliked are the ones that promote ideas of free speech which many in politics would like to silence. A politics board will go silent real quick if differences of opinion and ideas can't be spoken freely. krickitt, there is a difference between intelligent discussion about differences of opinion, and what Paul's doing - insulting anyone and everyone that doesn't share his opinion. I don't care to be told I'm stupid, that I hate my country, and all sorts of other things that aren't true. Yes, krickitt, the point is to have a DISCUSSION.. not a 'ream and insult all who don't share your beliefs', as chiver states so well. I find nothing interesting about a thread that has become a condemnation of Paul because of his article, his personality, pretty much everything about Paul. I don't find that to be an interesting political conversation. it 's not necessarily about Paul and only Paul. he just happens to be a good example. mmhmm...Does this mean you will no longer be using anymore of your snide remarks and veiled innuendos.. Somehow I find that hard to believe because they were NOT veiled very well, i.e "dense" "idiot' and etc.. or is this a case of selected memory again?? PI, you are just as guilty of that very thing so don't start.
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on May 27, 2011 14:17:38 GMT -5
PLAY NICE, PEEPS.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 14:20:47 GMT -5
We DO have several posters that have said they have little interest in politics, yet continue to post here, and often post to or about individual posters rather than political ideas. Tell me about it....I took @ four weeks off from this board because of all the personal attacks by deziloooooo, and mmhmm and now they both are claiming they so perfect....give me a break.. I post my views about poltices here and don't need to be demeaned or degraded by those who are not able to express a coherent thought on anything at all.. For most of us , if ideas are disagreed with , don't consider the disagreements demeaning or degrading...on the other hand , some I guess consider that is what it is.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 17:45:05 GMT -5
Your point would only be valid in the strictest sense, a radically literal interpretation of what I said.
It would be the equivalent of calling an activist against racism a bigot against bigots. While technically true, no one seriously views it that way.
There are a lot of radically right-wing sites on the internet that routinely publish extreme conservative babble. If you believe in such babble, the naturally you'll take offense. But to most sane individuals, the inflammatory rhetoric that comes from these sites is, in fact, babble.
Essentially saying I'm extreme for calling an extreme view point extreme really doesn't hold up.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 17:52:57 GMT -5
I find it interesting how a certain sect of conservatism believes it possesses a monopoly on what being an American means. I seriously doubt that even Mr. Burns can truly define "Americanism" without falling back on ideological repetition: "Those that agree with my views are real Americans."
Of course, who is to say what "view" is required to be an American, and if those views are not held, does that mean we are NOT American? Does this exempt us from our Constitutional rights and privileges thereof?
At what point does this divisive and warlike behavior turn into ideological corruption, a time when people are arrested or deported for having a political view that does not conform? I think everyone here knows what that stinks of.
The path you are on, Mr. Burns, is a dangerous one. The distance between patriotism and elitism is shorter than you think.
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cme1201
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Post by cme1201 on May 27, 2011 18:06:14 GMT -5
Burns is Canadian
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 27, 2011 18:22:08 GMT -5
Based on Paul's OP, it might be interesting to see how people self-evaluate on the individual points:
1. [ T / F ] - "I am intellectually superior to 60% or more of the regular contributors to P&M."
2. [ T / F ] - "I have a sense of justice that is defensibly superior to the justice advocated by 60% of more of the regular contributors to P&M."
3. [ T / F ] - "I have a defensibly finer appreciation of art and music than 60% of the regular contributors to P&M."
4. [ T / F ] - "I believe the establishment of a world government under men (humanity) with a unified set of laws, rights, ethics, and standards would likely benefit humanity."
5. [ T / F ] - "I believe that elected representatives who are educated in politics, diplomacy, and statesmanship, and who consider the 'big picture', are better qualified to set the direction of government and public policy than the democratic majority of the people they represent." (That is, if the democratic majority says A, and a representative says B, B is more likely to be the better course of action in your opinion.)
6. [ T / F ] - "I firmly believe the world was created by random happenstance and/or by (a) flawed being(s)."
7. [ T / F ] - "I believe that a 'broad swath' (60% or more) of humanity is not currently fit for self-government."
8. [ T / F ] - "I believe that a national government can meaningfully promote/enforce equality of its citizens without curtailing their individual freedoms." (This one is a thinkin' question.)
9. [ T / F ] - "I believe that people should be able to use recreational drugs, 'marry' homosexually, and obtain abortions without government interference."
10. [ T / F ] - "I believe that people should not be able to educate their children as they see fit, or purchase any automobile they desire without environmental penalties/tariffs, or purchase any lightbulb they desire without environmental penalties/tariffs."
11. [ T / F ] - "I consider it the responsibility of the federal government to determine which material should go into public school textbooks."
12. [ T / F ] - "My ideas on how to collect and disseminate taxes are superior to (or at least equivalent to) the ideas of 90% of regular P&M contributors."
13. [ T / F ] - "I have done any/all of the following: i) reported Paul to a moderator for the OP, ii) advocated that Paul be banned, made to apologize, or otherwise censured for his comments in the OP, or iii) explicitly supported another poster's advocacy that Paul be censured."
Scoring:
Add one point for each 'true'. 7 or more points means that Paul's OP (and followup on page 5) is "more accurate than not" in characterizing your views.
I'd be interested to hear the results, as well as whether you think of yourself as a 'liberal'.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 18:26:58 GMT -5
That test is a wonderful showcase of loaded questions. That should be in a textbook.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 27, 2011 18:37:41 GMT -5
How so? The questions are straightforward representations of claims made by Paul in the OP. If you're not ashamed of your views, you lose nothing by evaluating yourself.
As for 'loaded questions', if you reject the premise of a question, I'd appreciate it if you could give me a specific reason why.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 18:39:03 GMT -5
I find it interesting how a certain sect of conservatism believes it possesses a monopoly on what being an American means. I seriously doubt that even Mr. Burns can truly define "Americanism" without falling back on ideological repetition: "Those that agree with my views are real Americans." Of course, who is to say what "view" is required to be an American, and if those views are not held, does that mean we are NOT American? Does this exempt us from our Constitutional rights and privileges thereof? At what point does this divisive and warlike behavior turn into ideological corruption, a time when people are arrested or deported for having a political view that does not conform? I think everyone here knows what that stinks of. The path you are on, Mr. Burns, is a dangerous one. The distance between patriotism and elitism is shorter than you think. You left out the "love it or leave it ", the old bumper sticker signs, as if not agreeing with policy means one is disloyal and have no love, in the case of nationality, the country, which was a big one back in the day, and for some , it seems to be making a comeback. On the quiz..#5 seems ambiguouse to me..a little explanation needed.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 18:43:23 GMT -5
Hmm, okay, take this question as an example:
9. [ T / F ] - "I believe that people should be able to use recreational drugs, 'marry' homosexually, and obtain abortions without government interference."
Well, what if I believe that no, people should not be able to use recreational drugs, gays should be permitted to marry, and abortion should remain legal but with some government interference ... such as prohibiting late term or partial birth abortions?
I'm stuck answering all three questions with one answer even if my answers are different for each one. These sorts of questions lock in a person's views on multiple, disparate issues with a singular answer - an all or nothing proposition. That's an unfair question since one must either be an extreme liberal or a conservative. The questions do not allow for moderate liberals.
That's one example. I'll leave it at that.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 18:46:36 GMT -5
I found, as Shirina did, Virgil, that some questions would require more than one answer, since I'd have to break them apart to answer them. Some questions are asking what others appreciate, or how intelligent others are. In most instances, I don't know the answer to those questions.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 27, 2011 18:47:12 GMT -5
And putting down "I scored a 5 but was undecided on 1, 9, and 10" never occurred to you? ETA: I should rephrase that. I am not faulting you for looking at a question and saying "I have no single answer for that." But could you not break down the questions to at least provide some indication of your views? I don't mind qualified answers at all. I think what I (and Paul) find infuriating at times are claims that "the answer is complicated" when in reality the answer is something people would rather not readily admit. I won't bite.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on May 27, 2011 18:49:30 GMT -5
Well, if I could pick and choose which questions to answer and then "abstain" on a few, I can answer just one question, number 3, say false, and viola I'm a conservative with perhaps a few liberal tendencies.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 18:50:39 GMT -5
Sure, I could do that, Virgil. It seemed you wanted answers to the questions, not just a raw score. My bad. I scored a four, as well. I'm not a liberal and I'm not a conservative. I'm a moderate, holding views on both sides of that dichotomy, depending on the issue in question.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 18:51:26 GMT -5
I think Virgil's test avoids the base premise, so here's my test.
1) You are not a businessperson -- trader, merchant, the dreaded speculator, grocer, or shop owner.
T or F, if F do not continue any further
2) You resent businessmen-- traders, merchants, the dreaded speculators, grocers, shop owners, because you feel they are vulgar savages that are in charge of the world and should not be.
T or F, if F do not continue any further
For the following, rate 1 point Y, 0 for N 3)You have a hatred for the American way of life 4) You have a hatred for the West 5)You hate or are indifferent to Israel 6)You hate God 7)You wake up feeling superior to most people intellectually or spiritually
Extra credit , do you feel the following statement is accurate and not inflammatory: 0 points for Y, 1 for N
1)if you are a right-thinking person, to gain a better understanding of who the opposition is, and if it doesn't make it clear that liberals can never be reasoned with or gotten along with-- I don't know what will.
2) You think what might have happened in 1830s France has direct impact on the US.
I fall out of the test at question 2 hence believe Paul's OP is inaccurate and find the statement "liberals can never be reasoned with or gotten along with" inflammatory and untrue nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 18:56:13 GMT -5
LOL, Virgil!! I had 0 TRUE. Does that mean I'm some kind of weirdo?? A couple I had to think twice about. Now, since that seems impossible to me, I am going to do it again, and see if I misread something. ;D
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 27, 2011 19:02:04 GMT -5
From Virgil's test questions:
2. [ T / F ] - "I have a sense of justice that is defensibly superior to the justice advocated by 60% of more of the regular contributors to P&M."
Don't know, don't care and unimportant. Life is a team sport and we need to decide on a code of justice for all that we can live with.
3. [ T / F ] - "I have a defensibly finer appreciation of art and music than 60% of the regular contributors to P&M." Have no clue about other posters and find the question irrelevant. I've never thought of my knowledge or appreciation of art and music applying to anything except me personally. Haven't known anyone else who has or uses it to feel better than worse than others. FYI, was a very good musician when younger and know some people who do it for a living.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 27, 2011 19:03:29 GMT -5
I happen to be a 2/11/12, with the right to abstain on question 1. I don't mind if people are judging Paul's claims in the OP--it was an incendiary post. If he can't stand the heat, he should get out of the kitchen. My wish is that more people would say "I am a ../.../../../.." This way, I know your views. I can agree with them. I can attack them. I can do something with them. ETA:So your answer to 3 would be a definite 'no'. "Defensible" means that you can rigorously defend your belief. If you have no idea about other P&Mers and your love of music/art is not what you would consider to be in an exceptionally high percentile, then the answer is definitely "no".
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 19:03:41 GMT -5
Nope. Still 0. Stumbled over #9 for a minute, but my answer is False.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 27, 2011 19:13:40 GMT -5
lol @ optimist I do find it difficult (albeit not "impossible") to reason with (here in Canada) large-L Liberals. I believe that the events in 1830's France very much have an impact on today, although your test doesn't allow me to get past step 2.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 19:38:58 GMT -5
I finally read through his OP...skimmed it before... ' It comes down to and he posted; -------------------------------------
"Today the battle lines are forming. The dispute over Palestine, which was once a local conflict about land, has been transformed into a great cultural showdown. The vast array of bourgeoisies--Gasser Arafat's guerrilla socialists, Haas's Islamic fundamentalists, Jose Bev's anti-globalist leftists, America's anti-colonial multiculturalisms, and the BB C's Ox bridge medicates--focus their diverse rages and resentments on this one conflict.
The bourgeoisies have no politburo. There is no bourgeoisie central command. They have no plausible strategy for victory. They have only their nihilistic rage, their envy mixed with snobbery, their snide remarks, their newspaper distortions, their conspiracy theories, their suicide bombs and terror attacks--and above all, a burning sense that the rising, vibrant, and powerful peoples of America and Israel must be humiliated and brought low.' ------------------------------------
and what I have been objecting to is the premise of the handful, you know who you are , the overabundance of euphoria toward Natanahu as if all utterances of his,, ideas , thoughts are right on target, actually the ground he walks on is sacred .
To ask any questions as to his ideas and actions, question any , then one is automatically in the camp of the enemy, wishing to bring the Stat down, a anti Semite, is against the continuing of Israel, and definitely Israel as a Jewish State, which is , in kind words , poppycock.
I have questions I want answered, so what is wrong with that?
I could ask them here but no one can answer them for me because no one knows the answers who post here, just your ideas.
On some of my questions of why they, Israeli's , do what they do, the answers may come back where I , who asked them, who felt that their actions for so doing what they do, were questionable, thus the questions.
However the answers might show me that there is a reason, a concern, a important one, and they might have a point and if not fully accepted, in the answers back, at least there is a concern there and while I might not FULLY agree , how can I not understand their reason for doing it.
One of my questions for example, is with the security fence that they put up, not yet finished.
As ugly and depressing as it is as it walls off human beings from any contact from each other besides it takes away from the natural beauty of the land, I support it's construction and think they should finish it.
It has cut down the human bombings and terrorist attacks against Israeli's that were averaging 60 plus deaths and injuries a week to both Jews and Arabs, but after constructed a tiny amount today. As I said, finish it.
However, my question.
Why was it built always on the Palestinian side of the "67 "border, cutting through and seemingly breaking up the orchards and farmlands of the Palestinians , keeping them from freely getting to the land to farm and always Palestinian orchards , hundreds of years old in some cases destroyed , never any land from the Israeli side.
It is estimated that 10 % of the Palestinian land was taken by this Fence and in many cases , it was built to keep separate continuous areas of Palestinian villages from each other, alway as the villages to be surrounded by Israeli settlements. The fence as ugly as it is, for me a brilliant idea, it basically did what it did, even the terrorist leaders, Hamas and others claim it is effective but why always on built on the other side. I understand some areas it better fit, but all of it?? Give me a break already.
To me , it was a way to show , as it was necessarily being built, who had the club, a "in your face ", another incident of the bird being given to the Palestinians and "what are you going to do about it"
Enough of those "In your face", "Giving of the Bird " and in frustration, rage, possible at times pushed by lives of relatives, loved ones killed by "friendly Fire " , "Collateral damage ", you get those who think of themselves as martyrs and do those things.
According to Paul and others if you have a question of..then one is a anti Semite, pro Palestinian , traitor and that is so much BS...
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on May 27, 2011 19:41:35 GMT -5
LOL, Virgil!! I had 0 TRUE. Does that mean I'm some kind of weirdo?? A couple I had to think twice about. Now, since that seems impossible to me, I am going to do it again, and see if I misread something. ;D mmmm, if the shoe fits..just saying, no judgement, 0 false?...mmmmmm
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 27, 2011 19:53:01 GMT -5
I fall out at question 2, as well, Optimist.
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