Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 16, 2011 11:21:36 GMT -5
I am just saying that if you tell your kids that they can't do at least ONE activity, then you really have to consider the non-financial costs of that decision.
To be fair, they didn't tell their kids they couldn't do activities. They simply did not encourage expensive extracuricular activities. There is a difference. The kids had Scouting, school and church activities. Which is as much as a lot of kids had in the 80's and 90's.
Well, $1M invested properly 15 years ago (between the market, rental properties, side businesses, micro-lending, venture capital...) could be worth many multiples of that today. Add in speaking jobs, appearances on shows, follow up books... and she'd be doing very well.
According to the Money article, their investments were too conservative and I don't think the Dacyzcns changed that... She does not seek the limelight. She'll do one on one interviews ocassionally, but not speaking engagements (so far as I know).
When did commercial formula become popular? I am thinking the 80s or 90s when parents decided powdered in a can was better than canned milk based formula
I don't remember exactly when, but 80's or 90's is probably about right. When companies discovered that there was money to be made promoting them. I have no idea whether they were superior nutritionally or not.
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Poppet
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Post by Poppet on May 16, 2011 11:35:42 GMT -5
"The mom could have gotten a job"
Too funny. This notion that she didn't have a job or bring in cash. LOLOLOL. all the way to the bank.
LOL. You think that newsletter and all those books she did for free? She made a mint off of people who can't figure out how to do stuff cheaper for fear of "abusing" their children or appearing anti-social and whatnot. Writing and publishing was her job. And she earned so much from it she and Jim could retire all over again. IIRC, that money from writing was how the children were all able to attend college. Don't under estimate the Dycyzns. Thems smart people.
Yeah, lets all get a job at Wal-Mart or something to bring in more cash and look normal when one can make millions in writing and publishing on a topic that wasn't really covered all that well in the early 1990s. Unless you count Heloise or someone like that.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 16, 2011 11:37:43 GMT -5
When did commercial formula become popular? I am thinking the 80s or 90s when parents decided powdered in a can was better than canned milk based formula. I remember my little cousin loving canned milk straight from the can because he got used to it in a bottle. I have never been around babies to see what they drink so really don't know what is even in the commercial formula and why it might be better or worse or what BPH is. It was invented in 1867 and I think it became popular in the 30's. This is what I found out from a quick google search, so take that for what it is worth, but it fits with what I remember that the rural middle of the country still breast fed while the urban east and west didn't. " In Dr. Spock's biography he wrote that, when he was practicing in the early 1940's, he never had a patient succeed at breastfeeding. But all the baby care books DID continue to promote it, even while recognizing that most mothers would only be able to do it for a few weeks/months. And, as the years went by, even 'trying' became less and less common, as most mothers knew nobody who had breastfed, and it became associated with something that those poor and rural mothers did. "Modern" women used formula. By the 1950's and 1960's, breastfeeding rates were virtually zero." ETA here is the commercial baby formula part. sorry "As early as 1846, scientists and nutritionists noted an increase in medical problems and infant mortality was associated with dry nursing.[11][15] In an attempt to improve the quality of manufactured baby foods, in 1867, Justus von Liebig developed the world's first commercial infant formula, Liebig's Soluble Food for Babies.[16] The success of this product quickly gave rise to competitors such as Mellin's Infant Food, Ridge's Food for Infants and Nestlé's Milk.[17]"
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Poppet
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Post by Poppet on May 16, 2011 11:41:08 GMT -5
SS and WIR didn't exist when Tightwad was written
Everything on frugality I read to day is just rehash of Tightwad. And to be fair, Tightwad is just rehash of older tried and true methods of yesteryear. Most of the frugal tips in the Tightwad newsletters were submitted by readers who learned it from growing up around Depression era relatives and so forth.
Nothing new under the sun.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 11:43:39 GMT -5
"Modern" women used formula. By the 1950's and 1960's, breastfeeding rates were virtually zero."
My grandma and I were talking about it since I breastfeed and she said back when my dad was born in the 50's doctors actually DISCOURAGED breastfeeding because it was considered to be unhealthy compared to "scientifically" made formula.
She said she's surprised at how much things have changed.
Same with formula. She said back when my dad was a baby formula and Carnation were pretty comparable, my MIL has said the same thing.
They've both commented on how far formula has progressed over the years, Carnation doesn't hold a candle to it anymore.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 16, 2011 11:51:29 GMT -5
"Modern" women used formula. By the 1950's and 1960's, breastfeeding rates were virtually zero." My grandma and I were talking about it since I breastfeed and she said back when my dad was born in the 50's doctors actually DISCOURAGED breastfeeding because it was considered to be unhealthy compared to "scientifically" made formula. She said she's surprised at how much things have changed. Same with formula. She said back when my dad was a baby formula and Carnation were pretty comparable, my MIL has said the same thing. They've both commented on how far formula has progressed over the years, Carnation doesn't hold a candle to it anymore. I was born in the 60's and my mom said that in the 50's and 60's the nurses in the hospital would secretly feed the BF babies sugar water to make them not hungry so that the mom would use formula instead. Obviously that is wrong but my mom said they truly believed it was better.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 16, 2011 11:55:09 GMT -5
My grandmother's baby book from the 1930's suggests a bottle full of orange juice and castor oil for digestion. Pretty sure that's not recommended today.
Yeah my grandmother obviously lived otherwise I would not currently be here, but just because they did that in the 1930's doesn't mean it should be recommended today.
Even my MIL has said that when we have the carnation milk conversation that that was the current recommendation, they didn't have special formulas back then when a baby couldn't handle regular formula. Doesn't mean she would do that now with DD because the medical advice has changed.
I especially wouldn't do it to save a buck like the tightwar gazette recommended, that was more what irritated me about it.
It wasn't that it was in there,it was that she advised against it due to current medical advice, BUT here is all the ways it can save you money.
If it had just been an old outdated article I would have looked at it the same way I did my grandma's baby book.
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 16, 2011 11:55:56 GMT -5
That they didn't get off their hind-ends and WORK to give their children a more enriched life! FRUGAL: Could you define "enriched life" please. Enriched life: Having life experiences, learning to socialize, being encouraged to develop interests, even if they cost money, having an allowance that they are allowed to manage and spend as they choose, seeing more than the backyard, visiting places rather than reading about them in a book, watching more than one movie in 10 years, going to plays and concerts, museums, zoos, aquariums.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on May 16, 2011 11:57:56 GMT -5
"My grandmother's baby book from the 1930's suggests a bottle full of orange juice and castor oil for digestion. Pretty sure that's not recommended today." When I was pregnant in 2003 my Dr recommended the same thing for me.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on May 16, 2011 12:02:08 GMT -5
I always enjoyed reading excerpts from her Gazette and really enjoyed this interview. Warm, kind and genuine. She's just sharing some helpful tips and ideas to help people see that it can be done. Take from it what you will......
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Post by bobbysgirl on May 16, 2011 12:45:48 GMT -5
I'll admit I've been on here so long that a lot of what I read in Tightwad I'd already learned on SS or WIR. ;D SS and WIR didn't exist when Tightwad was written. ;D I don't think Lena did either! ( Insert laugh here)
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 16, 2011 12:57:13 GMT -5
SS and WIR didn't exist when Tightwad was written Everything on frugality I read to day is just rehash of Tightwad. And to be fair, Tightwad is just rehash of older tried and true methods of yesteryear. Most of the frugal tips in the Tightwad newsletters were submitted by readers who learned it from growing up around Depression era relatives and so forth. Nothing new under the sun. That's one of the reasons that I probably never read it. My parents were from the Depression era and I lived some of it growing up.
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Post by bobbysgirl on May 16, 2011 13:00:32 GMT -5
FRUGAL: Could you define "enriched life" please. Enriched life: Having life experiences, learning to socialize, being encouraged to develop interests, even if they cost money, having an allowance that they are allowed to manage and spend as they choose, seeing more than the backyard, visiting places rather than reading about them in a book, watching more than one movie in 10 years, going to plays and concerts, museums, zoos, aquariums. I see what you mean. there is an opposite side to all of this though. Enriched life could mean different things to country dwellers. Like: Watching birds gather in all their glory and beauty to feed in your back yard. Tending to grapes and watching the life cycle. Surprise at the fawn eating off your old apple tree. A real bumble bee buzzing around you letting you know this is his territory. I think a good life is a personal matter. there are family dynamics, and children need to fall within them. When they're on their own, they can do other things. Don't get me wrong, our kids did lots of things, but only one organized sport or activity per semester for each of them. With 4 kids, it could get a bit harried. They went to large cities for trips and were exposed to nature and fishing as well. Even our girls can fire a rifle then go inside and play the violin. I Hate to travel, so that experience wouldn't work for me. I am saying all of this to let you know that there is an individual meaning of 'a good life'.
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dancinmama
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Post by dancinmama on May 16, 2011 13:28:08 GMT -5
Enriched life: Having life experiences, learning to socialize, being encouraged to develop interests, even if they cost money, having an allowance that they are allowed to manage and spend as they choose, seeing more than the backyard, visiting places rather than reading about them in a book, watching more than one movie in 10 years, going to plays and concerts, museums, zoos, aquariums. I see what you mean. there is an opposite side to all of this though. Enriched life could mean different things to country dwellers. Like: Watching birds gather in all their glory and beauty to feed in your back yard. Tending to grapes and watching the life cycle. Surprise at the fawn eating off your old apple tree. A real bumble bee buzzing around you letting you know this is his territory. I think a good life is a personal matter. there are family dynamics, and children need to fall within them. When they're on their own, they can do other things. Don't get me wrong, our kids did lots of things, but only one organized sport or activity per semester for each of them. With 4 kids, it could get a bit harried. They went to large cities for trips and were exposed to nature and fishing as well. Even our girls can fire a rifle then go inside and play the violin. I Hate to travel, so that experience wouldn't work for me. I am saying all of this to let you know that there is an individual meaning of 'a good life'. What is interesting though, is that a lot of the experiences that our son remembers and seems to treasure are the simple ones. For a while, we had a "pet spider" who had built and ENORMOUS web in a tree in our back yard. For many, many days we would catch a moth or other insect and throw it into the web early in the evening after DH had come home. Then we would watch while the spider come out to wrap up his prize and then to repair the web. I know you can watch it on TV, but it was amazing to see it in person. DS used to like to go on leaf hunts. We'd walk through the neighborhood and hunt as many different leaves as we could. Then he would come home and put a piece of paper over each leaf to make an etching that were compiled into a book. There are a ton of simple things in life that are fun. With the age of technology I wonder if a lot of them are being forgotten. I do suppose that a lot of people simply don't have the time. We also did a lot of trips to museums, the zoo, and the ever popular amusement parks, but it is the things that we did at home that stick out in his mind more than anything else.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on May 16, 2011 15:02:27 GMT -5
dq, This was about 15 years ago. (Pre WIC). When my kids were babies (in the 60's) a typical formula was made from evaporated milk with a bit of corn syrup in it. Commercial formula, while available, was not widely used. Some of the tips ARE dated.... She may come out with an abridged version to bring it more up to date. In recent interviews she's talked about the internet as the current best resource for frugal living. In TTG, (in the 90's) she didn't consider the internet much of a resource. She has totally changed her view there. WIC has been around since 1974: www.fns.usda.gov/wic/WIC-Fact-Sheet.pdf
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 16, 2011 17:41:36 GMT -5
I'd have to go back and look but I am pretty sure the "but" part is somewhat recent compared to the actual recipe that was printed. Because she talks a lot about "breast being best" and that's a pretty recent ad campagin. In her 1998 book she talked about the recipe. She had a lot written about having spoken with nutritionist & doing research into formula. Maybe in previous books/articles she recommended it, but in this book she pretty much said - here is the recipe & everyone she spoke with agreed that formula is a much better option than the homemade stuff & to discuss it with your doctor. Though she also said formula costs over $850/yr & I know I could have done full formula for ~$500 (maybe it is cheaper today than 13 yrs ago). As it is, we are at 8 months & I haven't spent $100 so far on formula.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:24:33 GMT -5
"One other problem with the Dacyczyns' low-consumption lifestyle: It's isolating. The family rejects dinners out, most vacations and movies (last summer's splurge was to see Babe, the first family movie outing in about 10 years). Sports activities and lessons are not encouraged, although the four oldest kids do attend Girl Scout and Boy Scout meetings (annual dues: $12 per child). The family is "emotionally self-contained," says Amy proudly. She likes her children to play with one another, not with other people's kids. "What the... not even playdates?! And no encouragement of sports or music or theater or anything?? There's such a thing as balance! Wow... And I'm the last person to say that kids need endless social exposure - I actually think a lot of kids could do with less of it - but that's pretty different from saying "no friends outside Brownies and family." Extremism is never a good thing. If you need to live this way for awhile to meet a certain goal, fine. But continuing to live that sparsely when it's not necessary is a sickness.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:28:36 GMT -5
I'm not bashing the poverty cases, and they're choosing to live like this, they aren't forced into it. The husband retired at 41 and chooses to raise six kids on his pension of 18k a year. He or his wife could still work.
That's another thing - who the hell stops working at 40?! Maybe I'm weird or something but I could never just "retire" at forty unless I had something pretty compelling going on and my finances were completely in order.
I don't think it's the least bit healthy to quit working as an able-bodied forty-year old. That's not how it's supposed to work. No, you shouldn't work yourself into the ground until you're ninety but neither is it a good idea to let yourself atrophy at such a relatively young age. Particularly if you have to live this tightly and can't even enjoy not working...
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:36:29 GMT -5
I don't know why so many assuming that her kids had such horrible lives. Yes, I understand that no movies and no eating out and no vacations is almost abuse in today's world.
It's not the movies and the vacations, Lena. It's the lessons these parents are imparting:
1. It's cool not to work in your forties as long as you have enough money.
2. Even if in order to have enough you never get to have any luxuries - luxuries are for suckers anyhow.
3. We don't need to interact with the world around us.
4. You don't need to challenge yourself with sports or music or dance or any other skill that we have to pay for... and we can't afford it anyway.
5. The answer to all money troubles is Cutting Back (you might hear some crazy people talking about an alternate solution called Make More Money but those people don't know what they're talking about and they're probably in debt anyhow).
6. And most of all... we're better than everyone else because we scrimp and save and Mom is more devoted to you kids than other moms who work and neglect their kids and let them get addicted to heroin.
Pass.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 19:41:46 GMT -5
That's another thing - who the hell stops working at 40?! Maybe I'm weird or something but I could never just "retire" at forty unless I had something pretty compelling going on and my finances were completely in order. Yeah, I'd be darn scared that I'd run out of money at age 75. I hope their kids are planning to foot the bill if they need nursing home care and no one can take them in. They have some good values- don't get trapped by debt and by the urge for Stuff, be independent, live on less than you make, use it up, wear it out, make it do don't waste. All good lessons. They just take them to a far greater extreme than I consider mentally healthy.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:47:28 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd be darn scared that I'd run out of money at age 75. I hope their kids are planning to foot the bill if they need nursing home care and no one can take them in.
It's not so much the money, it's the idea of not working. I cannot for the life of me figure out what is so compelling about the freedom to sit on your ass all day, every day.
Maybe they've got a lot of rich activities at home with their little garden or whatever, but I doubt it. Not working isn't good for people. Having the option not to work is only a good thing if you have something else going on instead of a 9-5 job that demands a significant portion of your time and energy.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:48:50 GMT -5
Hey, you realize that they are working, just not for the corporate machine. They have their own company and a continuing stream of passive income from the royalties on 4 books. They can always resurrect the newsletter and go for books 5, 6, 7, 8... the saga continues, kind of like Star Wars.
Passive income =/= working. That's kind of my point. You might have the resources not to work, but I'm sorry - hanging out with your family in a little self-contained bubble all day every day does not qualify as work and I firmly believe people are not meant to live that way.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 19:51:30 GMT -5
This is kind of a separate rant because I actually think it's fine to be a SAHM but I am so bloody sick of this stupid party line that working mothers don't love their children as much as SAHMs. I plan to be a working mom - if anyone stays home, it will more than likely be DF - and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. It's not like I won't still love my kids, or spend time with them or be there for them. And I would prefer that we have two incomes for as long as possible. When my kids are young, they won't remember who took care of them during the day anyway - and when they're older, they'll be in school and there's no reason I can't at least work part-time.
But anyway, it really burns me up when people suggest that working parents don't care about their kids as much as SAHPs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 20:00:00 GMT -5
I think not working is fine if you have other things to occupy your time. Work isn't the only way to develop as a person. I admire this family for wanting to spend time together - I just think they took the frugality thing so far that it really did isolate them.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on May 16, 2011 20:31:01 GMT -5
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 17, 2011 8:05:25 GMT -5
Firebird - I agree 100% with everything you just said! Especially the working part- (I'm not knocking SAHPs either, if they are fulfilled and their working spouse makes good money, go for it!)- I like to work. I enjoy making a contribution to society. I like variety in my life. I like that my work is only 3 or 4 days per week, but I do not see myself as the type to ever go without a job (barring some huge catastrophe). I would feel terribly guilty if I had 6 kids who never got anything new, while I sat around all day living a life of leisure.
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april47
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Post by april47 on May 17, 2011 8:26:02 GMT -5
"I would feel terribly guilty if I had 6 kids who never got anything new, while I sat around all day living a life of leisure"
"life of leisure" and "6 kids" do not go together!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 17, 2011 8:48:34 GMT -5
" I would feel terribly guilty if I had 6 kids who never got anything new, while I sat around all day living a life of leisure" "life of leisure" and "6 kids" do not go together! I think anyone who has read any of the Tightwad Gazette issues would realize that the Dazycns led anything except a "life of leisure". In addition to publishing the newsletter, which required hands on research, she prepared three meals a day for eight people. She read to each child (of six) every night. She had no maid or gardener; had a large garden. She froze and canned fruits and vegetables. also, the emphasis on"new" surprises me when it comes from YM'ers. I wore a hand me downs (including shoes) from a cousin until I was old enough to earn babysitting money and buy something new for myself. In my teens I became skillful enough at sewing that I made my own clothes. I don't feel that I was abused. Until my grandkids were teens, their clothes and toys came mostly from yard sales. They got new things on their birthdays and Christmas. Were my grandkids abused? Kids today are so pampered that I wonder how they will survive the big world outside. They have ipods, cell phones, playdates, organized activities, but cannot seem to entertain themselves. How many of them have the satisfaction of knowing that they had earned the item of clothing or the gizmo they wanted? It's just handed to them. No wonder they have entitlement issues.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 17, 2011 8:55:56 GMT -5
When you add up how much full time daycare would be for six kids at the least till one of them is old enough to watch his/her siblings alone (here it is age 12 or 13, I can't remember now) you'd have to be bringing in quite a bit of income just to make up for the cost of daycare.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on May 17, 2011 9:01:39 GMT -5
It's not so much the money, it's the idea of not working. I cannot for the life of me figure out what is so compelling about the freedom to sit on your ass all day, every day. I dunno. I'm going to work multiple jobs for 30 years to support my family. Sitting on my ass in 20 years when I can retire at looks pretty darn appealing. Compelling, even. Because my life revolves around work and my nuclear family, I really don't have much time for anything else. I have about a zillion hobbies I'd like to take up, but I don't have the time. Hell, I don't even have much time to do things like get a hair cut. I'd like to not have to start planning for christmas a year in advanced because I don't have time to take care of everything in December. I'd like to shop for needed clothes for myself at a normal time of day, not at 8 or 9 pm after I've worked my jobs. We see our friends about 4 times a year. Or see a movie on a whim. And sleep. To get 8 hours of sleep, or have the ability to nap if I'm sick. These, indeed are "luxuries" I look forward to, while sitting on my ass, not working.
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