Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 17, 2011 9:09:18 GMT -5
I'm retired. I don't "sit on my ass". I get up at 6:00 am just like I did when I was working. I garden, volunteer, tutor my grandson, do my own housework, cooking from scratch (we rarely eat out and we don't eat fast food or convenience foods). There qre not enough hours in the day.
The difference is that I get to prioritize what I'm going to do and I don't have to put up with obnoxious bosses or co-workers.
But I sure as hell don't "sit on my ass". Do you Phil? Patstab? Blonde Granny? Dancinmama?
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on May 17, 2011 9:40:25 GMT -5
" I would feel terribly guilty if I had 6 kids who never got anything new, while I sat around all day living a life of leisure" They have ipods, cell phones, playdates, organized activities, but cannot seem to entertain themselves. How many of them have the satisfaction of knowing that they had earned the item of clothing or the gizmo they wanted? It's just handed to them. No wonder they have entitlement issues. I agree that providing too much to anyone without the element of earning poses problems. And that there are many young people and old people who don't have a solid work ethic or character for that matter. DH and I raised our two to work and earn their way as that reflects our values. We live in a rural part of upstate NY. Most of the kids that we know are hard workers and have gained the experience and skills to make their way, whether that included college or not. I don't believe that all young people are devoid of a good work ethic, nor boomers or whatever other demographic group you care to highlight. Even divorced adult sons whose mother give them a down payment on a house, pay tuition for one of their children and assist financiallly in many other ways......
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 17, 2011 9:55:58 GMT -5
I don't believe that all young people are devoid of a good work ethic, nor boomers or whatever other demographic group you care to highlight. Even divorced adult sons whose mother give them a down payment on a house, pay tuition for one of their children and assist financiallly in many other ways.....
Touche, (but I did not GIVE my son a down payment on a house. I LOANED him the funds to pay off his ex - he's paid me back. I DO pay part of g'son's private school tuition, contribute to g'kids 529's, buy them clothes when they need them. My son will not accept direct financial help from me) I did not intend to paint ALL kids as being spoiled and entitled. I am simply astonished at the intensity of condemnation for this couple who raised 6 kids while attaining their own financial goals.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 17, 2011 10:01:39 GMT -5
Gardeining I don't really think that people are condeming the couple for meeting their goals, I think people are bothered by how the OP presented the author and her answer to the questions. I'll admit I'd raise my eyebrows if someone told me they preferred their kids play with themselves rather than other kids. I wouldn't say anything because it is none of my business, but I would certainly think that is odd and a little sad. I recently read Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and you get the same reactions from people based on news snippets of the author. When I read the actual book it was quite different. I still do not agree with her on quite a bit, but I also agreed with her on a lot more than I thought I would. Like people condemn her for not letting her daughters have/attend slumber parties. When I actually read the ENTIRE section I thought about the slumber parties I attended as a "tween" and yep, I agree with her!
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on May 17, 2011 10:19:55 GMT -5
I did not intend to paint ALL kids as being spoiled and entitled. I am simply astonished at the intensity of condemnation for this couple who raised 6 kids while attaining their own financial goals. Understood. I remember reading excerpts from Amy's newsletters all those years ago. I found it fascinating and highly creative. I love to see how she and her family solved problems, fixed things, re purposed every day items...it's cool....like solving a puzzle(which by the way I feel is really what couponing is to a certain degree). Some of it I had already figured out on my own and other things were new and things that I decided to try. My opinion on how she raised her kids and ran her household is ....to each his own...it's all good. I watched the video and found her to be just a regular Jane with what I consider some valuable stuff to impart. Hey, there's always something to learn. And when I do learn something new, usually I have a greater appreciation for the person that provided it to me....JMHO.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 17, 2011 10:21:36 GMT -5
dq, The Money article did focus on the more extreme aspects of the couple's lifestyle. I've read the TG and a number of interviews with the mother and they seem to me to be very down to earth people. I didn't agree with some of their child rearing philosophies, but, overall, I thought their kids probably had a pretty good childhood. In the TG, she wrote about a number of birthday parties and themes that she'd used. I was very impressed with her creativity. She went all out for each kid's birthday - without hiring clowns or spending $$$.
She stressed, over and over again, that she was not preaching thrift as a way of life, but rather sharing methods that she and her readers had found helpful to others who wanted that lifestyle.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 17, 2011 10:26:14 GMT -5
In the TG, she wrote about a number of birthday parties and themes that she'd used. I was very impressed with her creativity. She went all out for each kid's birthday - without hiring clowns or spending $$$DH is terrified of clowns. So that pretty much takes care of hiring clowns for birthday parties.
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dividend
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Post by dividend on May 17, 2011 10:26:52 GMT -5
It's not so much the money, it's the idea of not working. I cannot for the life of me figure out what is so compelling about the freedom to sit on your ass all day, every day. Maybe they've got a lot of rich activities at home with their little garden or whatever, but I doubt it. Not working isn't good for people. Having the option not to work is only a good thing if you have something else going on instead of a 9-5 job that demands a significant portion of your time and energy. I don't look forward to retirement so I can sit on my ass all day. Don't you have things that you're passionate about that you'd devote more time to, if not for the time suck that is your 9-5? I met a couple on the bike trail this weekend who were retired - they were riding their bicycles across the United States for the third time. Taking a different route each time. There's something most people can't do when they're working. I want to do that. I want to apprentice in a real artisan bakery. I want to do more volunteer work at the adult literacy clinic - have time to take on another student without feeling completely over-commited. I want to have an entire summer to commit to building a wood burning brick oven in my backyard, and planting a huge garden. Right now, the closest I get to this stuff is weekend trips, bicycle commuting, farmer's markets, and teaching a GED pass math class one night a week, and I feel frazzled most of the time. gardeninggrandma has it right - there are not enough hours in the day. And the younger I can get free of the 9-5, the more able I'll be to do these things.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 10:53:27 GMT -5
I recently read Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and you get the same reactions from people based on news snippets of the author. When I read the actual book it was quite different. I still do not agree with her on quite a bit, but I also agreed with her on a lot more than I thought I would.
That's a good point. I would probably feel a lot less heated if I read the book for myself. All I know about this woman is what people have posted in this thread.
I didn't mean to come off so anti-retirement. Obviously there are many fulfilling things that people can do once they're no longer working, and certainly raising kids is a great reason to stay home if there ever was one.
I think my negative reaction was primarily based on two things: their apparent desire to interact with no one besides their own family, ever, and their seeming contempt for people that want to live with a few luxuries and are willing to *gasp* work to get them.
Neither of those may actually be reality, it's just the impression I got from this thread.
I still don't think most people should stop working at 40, though. Go to part-time or run your own business, okay fine. Especially if you have children at home. But for most people, most of the time, I just think that's too young.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 17, 2011 10:58:19 GMT -5
If I could quit working for a paycheck before or at 40, I'd jump on it. It'd certainly make grant season a lot less nerve wracking.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 17, 2011 11:08:53 GMT -5
Sometimes even the best commercial formula is out of the question too. I had a friend whose child was allergic to all the commercial formulas and breast-feeding was out of the question too (I forget whether the child was allergic to that too). Anyway, the child had to be feed a homemade formula made of almond milk. There is always something new under the sun. Out of curiousity, how long ago was this? Nowadays they have hypo-allergenic formulas that have all the proteins broken down for kids with allergies. I am just wondering if the kid was also allergic to the hypo-allergenic stuff.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on May 17, 2011 11:09:51 GMT -5
I think my negative reaction was primarily based on two things: their apparent desire to interact with no one besides their own family, ever, and their seeming contempt for people that want to live with a few luxuries and are willing to *gasp* work to get them.
They didn't avoid interaction with others - they were active both in their church and their community. They had a strong giving value - both money and time. But you don't get that from the Money article or from posts from people who know nothing other than what they read in a couple of paragraphs.
She did not have contempt for people who want to live with luxuries - I can't find it now, but I recently read an interview where she had gotten together with a former co worker (graphic artist) and they compared how their lives were so different. The former coworker (and current friend) had chosed a childless lifestyle, a city apartment, travel... Amy thought it was great that her friend had figured out her own priorities and how to meet them. There was no contempt - at all - for a friend with very different goals and lifestyle.
She had no problem with "work". There is all kinds of "work". There is being a wage slave, a business owner, self employed and a parent. All of them are "work". (Not all are equally valued by society). She has been all of them.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 17, 2011 11:22:28 GMT -5
I kind of had the same reaction. I guess it just comes down to priorities. Personally, I would continue working part-time at some job I enjoyed rather than have to be as frugal as she is to get by on their retirement income. Yes, she doesn't sit on her ass all day & taking care of her family is her job, but on that low of a budget I think it would be a crappy job. I guess it is what she enjoys, but I would rather have additional income & then have both the time & money to take small trips, not have to watch every penny, be able to sign the kids up for sports if that is what they want to do, be able to go to a movie once in a while, etc. I guess my priorities are different than hers - she would rather spend all her time with her family & live extremely frugal.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 11:33:30 GMT -5
I think my negative reaction was primarily based on two things: their apparent desire to interact with no one besides their own family, ever, and their seeming contempt for people that want to live with a few luxuries and are willing to *gasp* work to get them. They didn't avoid interaction with others - they were active both in their church and their community. They had a strong giving value - both money and time. But you don't get that from the Money article or from posts from people who know nothing other than what they read in a couple of paragraphs. She did not have contempt for people who want to live with luxuries - I can't find it now, but I recently read an interview where she had gotten together with a former co worker (graphic artist) and they compared how their lives were so different. The former coworker (and current friend) had chosed a childless lifestyle, a city apartment, travel... Amy thought it was great that her friend had figured out her own priorities and how to meet them. There was no contempt - at all - for a friend with very different goals and lifestyle. She had no problem with "work". There is all kinds of "work". There is being a wage slave, a business owner, self employed and a parent. All of them are "work". (Not all are equally valued by society). She has been all of them. As I said, what I perceived from this thread and only from this thread about their ideals may have not been reality. I still think that wanting your kids to play only with their siblings and not letting them play soccer or flute if they want to is unhealthy. But different strokes. They seem to be happy with their choices, so I shouldn't judge (doesn't mean I won't ;D).
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 17, 2011 12:31:29 GMT -5
Enriched life: Having life experiences, learning to socialize, being encouraged to develop interests, even if they cost money, having an allowance that they are allowed to manage and spend as they choose, seeing more than the backyard, visiting places rather than reading about them in a book, watching more than one movie in 10 years, going to plays and concerts, museums, zoos, aquariums. I see what you mean. there is an opposite side to all of this though. Enriched life could mean different things to country dwellers. Like: Watching birds gather in all their glory and beauty to feed in your back yard. Tending to grapes and watching the life cycle. Surprise at the fawn eating off your old apple tree. A real bumble bee buzzing around you letting you know this is his territory. I think a good life is a personal matter. there are family dynamics, and children need to fall within them. When they're on their own, they can do other things. Don't get me wrong, our kids did lots of things, but only one organized sport or activity per semester for each of them. With 4 kids, it could get a bit harried. They went to large cities for trips and were exposed to nature and fishing as well. Even our girls can fire a rifle then go inside and play the violin. I Hate to travel, so that experience wouldn't work for me. I am saying all of this to let you know that there is an individual meaning of 'a good life'. I live in the city. I have birds gather around my flower gardens in my backyard. I get wildlife (mostly rabbits, and occasoinal deer), we gets bees all the time, they are annoying. I'm saying all this to let you know that city dwellers are not always holed up in concrete buildings. We do have yards and andimals adn gardens, etc. And I maintain that her statement of discouraging the kids from making outside friends hinders their life enrichment, no matter what they are into.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 12:35:20 GMT -5
What gets me still is the restricting of the kids' activities. She said herself that these choices aren't for everyone - so isn't it at least POSSIBLE that her kids might have benefited from choosing their own non-church activity on occasion? What if they were atheist and hated going to church?
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 17, 2011 12:37:20 GMT -5
Frugalnurse, I don't know of one single sahp who sits around all day living a life of leisure. That's a ridiculous statement. I didn't say all SAHPs live a life of leisure. Why do people always feel so compelled to twist words and make issues where there are none? The lady in the article and her husband were SAHPs because they wanted to live their dream, which I would define living your dream as leisure, not work. It was not a ridiculous statement, nice try. Their kids (well, at least one) complained that she never had news shoes. I don't think a child getting new shoes once in awhile is exactly spoiling them (and eww...used shoes? hello fungus!). My point was that the parents are living their dreams while their kids complain of feeling deprived. That is sad to me, and I wouldn't feel like a good parent if I let that happen.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on May 17, 2011 12:40:02 GMT -5
What gets me still is the restricting of the kids' activities. She said herself that these choices aren't for everyone - so isn't it at least POSSIBLE that her kids might have benefited from choosing their own non-church activity on occasion? What if they were atheist and hated going to church? That is why you keep them away from bad influences. One doesn't just become an atheist, it is a learned beliefs from all the heathens out in the world that are going to indoctrinate your children against god & your family. Not sure if she feels this way, I just happen to know a few people who do. I have learned that I am apparently a "pagan" or "heathen" because I consider myself an atheist & that I voted for Obama only because I went to public school & they indoctrinated me with all their liberal beliefs. Too bad I didn't have overbearing parents that could protect me from the evil world & make sure I only believed what they considered truth.
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 17, 2011 12:52:43 GMT -5
Frugalnurse, your words didn't need twisting. This is what you said: "I would feel terribly guilty if I had 6 kids who never got anything new, while I sat around all day living a life of leisure". Because that is what the article said! Did you read the article? My comment was not a bash on SAHPs, it was a remark about that family in particular. Yes, my words were taken out of context to seem like I made a blanket statement about all SAHPs, when that is not what the context was at all.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 17, 2011 12:56:40 GMT -5
Personally, I would continue working part-time at some job I enjoyed rather than have to be as frugal as she is to get by on their retirement income. That's what I came away with too. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but when I picture retirement I don't dream of dumpster diving, buying food a year past it's expiration date, foraging for wild berries because I'm too cheap to buy jelly, buying old ripped clothes at yard sales in order to harvest the fabric and sew my own, etc. If other people do have that dream for themselves, knock yourself out I guess. Personally, it sounds to me like a much bigger pain in the ass than just working.
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Frugal Nurse
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Post by Frugal Nurse on May 17, 2011 13:00:38 GMT -5
Personally, I would continue working part-time at some job I enjoyed rather than have to be as frugal as she is to get by on their retirement income. That's what I came away with too. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but when I picture retirement I don't dream of dumpster diving, buying food a year past it's expiration date, foraging for wild berries because I'm too cheap to buy jelly, buying old ripped clothes at yard sales in order to harvest the fabric and sew my own, etc. If other people do have that dream for themselves, knock yourself out I guess. Personally, it sounds to me like a much bigger pain in the ass than just working. Well said!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 13:09:20 GMT -5
That is why you keep them away from bad influences. One doesn't just become an atheist, it is a learned beliefs from all the heathens out in the world that are going to indoctrinate your children against god & your family.
Not sure if she feels this way, I just happen to know a few people who do.
Me too, and I hate it. I understand it to some extent (if you truly believe that certain things are evil, it is somewhat logical to conclude that you have a duty to shelter your kids from them as long as possible), but I hate it.
I was raised religious and it didn't mess me up by any means, but that's largely because my parents didn't use religion to shelter me from the outside world. I know plenty of kids whose parents did just that, and they're paying the price. I'm sure my parents are worried and maybe hurt that I'm no longer religious, but they definitely have better things to do with their time than browbeat me about how I'm going to hell for my choice. That's why I like them ;D
Other people with religious families, not so lucky. It was hard enough to admit to my parents that I wasn't religious anymore with them being like they are - in some families, you have to pretend to keep believing even if you don't or risk being shunned by the very people who are supposed to love you no matter what.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on May 17, 2011 13:31:45 GMT -5
Personally, it sounds to me like a much bigger pain in the ass than just working. I agree, it's not something I'm personally interested in doing at the moment, but her advice/tips are helpful to people who aren't able to generate a substantial income like I'm currently able to do, so there's definitely value in that. I'm glad there are people like her who do extreme things to show us what can be possible, so that we can make more informed decisions about whether we're willing to make the same sacrifices in our own lives.
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on May 17, 2011 13:34:57 GMT -5
Other people with religious families, not so lucky. It was hard enough to admit to my parents that I wasn't religious anymore with them being like they are - in some families, you have to pretend to keep believing even if you don't or risk being shunned by the very people who are supposed to love you no matter what. I guess I've taken for granted how much freedom I had as a child, since my parents were too busy working and worrying about surviving to force religion down my throat. I can't imagine growing up somewhere like in a polygamist compound...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 17, 2011 13:36:39 GMT -5
but her advice/tips are helpful to people who aren't able to generate a substantial income Right, but they're choosing to live on less than you'd make working a full time minimum wage job. You wouldn't need to generate a substantial income, the pimply faced 16 year old kid at McDonalds has more purchasing power.
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servant_of_dog
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Post by servant_of_dog on May 17, 2011 13:41:49 GMT -5
I'll admit I'd raise my eyebrows if someone told me they preferred their kids play with themselves Me too!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 13:43:59 GMT -5
Right, but they're choosing to live on less than you'd make working a full time minimum wage job. You wouldn't need to generate a substantial income, the pimply faced 16 year old kid at McDonalds has more purchasing power.
Why does the teenage McD's worker that lives in your mind always have pimples?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 13:44:56 GMT -5
I'll admit I'd raise my eyebrows if someone told me they preferred their kids play with themselves Me too! Hahahaha.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 17, 2011 13:45:55 GMT -5
Why does the teenage McD's worker that lives in your mind always have pimples?It's the oil and the grease. I worked in a pizza parlor and while I wasn't a "pimple face" I did have way more breakouts working there than I did after I left.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 17, 2011 13:46:19 GMT -5
I guess I've taken for granted how much freedom I had as a child, since my parents were too busy working and worrying about surviving to force religion down my throat. I can't imagine growing up somewhere like in a polygamist compound...
It doesn't take a polygamist compound to really f up a kid's mind about religion.
All you have to do is indoctrinate certain ideas about heaven and hell and sin. It can easily be done in the context of an otherwise normal childhood, especially if your immediate social circle believes the same things you do.
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