Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:08:23 GMT -5
Because part of the tradition of women wearing jewelry is to warn other guys that they're already spoken for. It's also a way for people to show off their wealth. I'm not saying that's why he gave you the jewelry, or why you wear it, but I can understand how people would see it that way.
I suppose... it just seems like a really negative way to view jewelry on women. Or any other gift, for that matter. I mean, you could argue that ANY gift could be a "status symbol" if you look at it that way.
Also, I think there's kind of a long road between demanding a huge ring SO THAT you can show off to your friends and enjoying a ring because it's pretty and others happen to admire it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:13:10 GMT -5
DH and I have been married for 8 years, together for 14. We've never had a fight, maybe because our values on the major issues are so similar and we're just too darn mellow to get excited over the rest of it.
You've never fought over anything? I find that a little strange - good if it works for you but strange. DF and I wouldn't have much of a relationship if we hadn't fought. Our fights - particularly our early fights - almost always stemmed from deep misunderstandings that would have poisoned the relationship if left unchecked.
And some of those misunderstandings were quite hurtful before they were resolved. If you can always discuss serious and emotional topics without raising your voice or getting upset, you must be the calmest person alive.
I'm not being snarky, just honestly a little amazed that two people could be THAT compatible.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 17:14:13 GMT -5
I mean, you could argue that ANY gift could be a "status symbol" if you look at it that way. And a lot of other gifts are probably status symbol-ish too. Like roses. If I bring flowers home for my wife, it's a token of my love for her. If I have them delivered to her office, it's still a token of my love for her, but also a way to give her something to show off to her coworkers a bit. Delivering the flowers to her in public makes it more of a status symbol. Giving her an expensive gift that she wears in public (like jewelry, fur coats, fancy cars) is kind of the same thing. Or could be anyway.
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Post by illinicheme on May 16, 2011 17:15:10 GMT -5
These kinds of threads always leave me wanting to say:
I'm a woman and I responsible for making all men's lives terrible with my fierce independence!!!!!!! ROAR!!!!!!!!!!!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:18:27 GMT -5
Like roses. If I bring flowers home for my wife, it's a token of my love for her. If I have them delivered to her office, it's still a token of my love for her, but also a way to give her something to show off to her coworkers a bit.
True that.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 17:24:42 GMT -5
I see women wearing engagement rings the same way I see women getting flowers at the office. I'm sure there's all the lovey dovey crap in there too, but there's also a distinct element of showing off. Maybe she just likes the ring, or it's sentimental, or whatever, but when I see her wearing the wedding band and the engagement ring I tend to think she's showing off a bit.
For the record, Loop wears her engagement ring everyday. I don't know how to process that since I bought her the ring and know for a fact that it's not expensive enough to show off. Chicks are just weird I guess.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2011 17:25:04 GMT -5
You've never fought over anything? I find that a little strange - good if it works for you but strange. DF and I wouldn't have much of a relationship if we hadn't fought. Our fights - particularly our early fights - almost always stemmed from deep misunderstandings that would have poisoned the relationship if left unchecked. <snip> If you can always discuss serious and emotional topics without raising your voice or getting upset, you must be the calmest person alive. Yeah, I know that in many "never had a fight" relationships there are seething resentments and unspoken issues. That's not us. First, kids aren't an issue. Ours are grown and independent, so no disagreements about raising them or helping them. Second, there's plenty of money to go around and we have very similar priorities in that area, so no arguments there, either. Neither of us does things that drive the other nuts- leaving the toilet seat up, strewing our dirty clothes all over, etc. If one person is doing something that drives the other crazy, we say something before it becomes a major problem. Last winter I kept EXPECTING DH to take the car in and get it washed- he's in charge of car maintenance and is wonderful about getting it in for regular work, but the car just got dirtier and dirtier, and DH didn't have enough ESP to realize that when I muttered about the car being filthy I really meant, "please get the car washed". One day I was driving past a car wash. Ten minutes and $10 later, I had a clean car, and realized how silly I'd been. So, yeah, it's possible.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on May 16, 2011 17:28:12 GMT -5
"I suggested picking a joint last name, at which point my husband said "Skywalker" all excitedly - so that ended that idea pretty quickly."
We picked Smash as our joint name. I would never actually go through with it, but I do enjoy getting mail from friends addressed to the Smashes.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:28:34 GMT -5
For the record, Loop wears her engagement ring everyday. I don't know how I view that since I bought her the ring and know for a fact that it's not expensive enough to show off.
So even though you know Loop's ring didn't cost that much and you (presumably) didn't buy it for her to prove anything, the fact that she wears it every day implies it's still a status symbol of sorts?
By that yardstick, so is mine. But I'm trying to envision a scenario where an engagement ring WOULDN'T be a status symbol if that's how it is. I guess not having one at all is the only way women could be considered unmaterialistic? Or maybe they should just leave it in the drawer to enjoy in the privacy of their own home?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:30:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I know that in many "never had a fight" relationships there are seething resentments and unspoken issues. That's not us. First, kids aren't an issue. Ours are grown and independent, so no disagreements about raising them or helping them. Second, there's plenty of money to go around and we have very similar priorities in that area, so no arguments there, either. Neither of us does things that drive the other nuts- leaving the toilet seat up, strewing our dirty clothes all over, etc. If one person is doing something that drives the other crazy, we say something before it becomes a major problem.
In that case, kudos and karma. That's pretty impressive. I hope that once DF and I have worked through all our major misunderstandings we operate just like that - although we'll probably still have an argument once in awhile, the Irish can't really help it ;D
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 17:32:32 GMT -5
"Can't I just wear something my partner gave me because I like it? Why does it have to be my proclamation to the world that I've got a guy? Why should that even enter the picture? "
You can, but when nearly every woman is wearing the same general 'thing'...doesn't it become much less about any individual feelings between the 2 of you and much more about "look, I've got a man"? It's not as if you and every other woman are wearing little trinkets which are intimately important between you and your man...and leaving it up to gossipers to guess whether it's an engagement gift or just an "i love you" gift. For all the different styles, sizes, colors, etc...it's still boiling down to essentially a very generic gift who's only real meaning is to be shown off.
I understand your dislike for those who really milk the idea of "this is how much my man loves me which makes me better than you". But I think that's more about degree than the fact they think that way...because that's essentially how the ring is used. (if it was really a thing about the 2 of you, it would be something unique to your relationship, and wouldn't have to be something that's shown off). You prefer apparently to be less "in your face" about the status symbol...but I would argue it's still just a matter of degree that bothers you as opposed to the attitude itself or you wouldn't have the ring at all.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 16, 2011 17:33:33 GMT -5
I didn't want an engagement ring and initially gave it back, but that hurt dh's feelings so much that I took it anyway.
DH and I really didn't fight for the first 12 years. We had disagreements, and some communication issues but nothing ever escalated to raised voices. After we had the baby disagreements and communication issues became frequent enough that we have fought now. Not because of the baby, but limited resources, new expectations, blah, blah, blah.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:35:05 GMT -5
You prefer apparently to be less "in your face" about the status symbol...but I would argue it's still just a matter of degree that bothers you as opposed to the attitude itself or you wouldn't have the ring at all.
I didn't HAVE to have the ring at all. I told DF I didn't need one, and I meant it. He wanted me to have one, and wear one. Was I supposed to deny him that pleasure just to make some kind of point about how unmaterialistic I am?
I fully admit that I'm a little sensitive to the engagement ring = status symbol motif, but I still think it's a valid question. The ring is not just about me, much like the wedding we're having is not just about us.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:37:44 GMT -5
DH and I really didn't fight for the first 12 years. We had disagreements, and some communication issues but nothing ever escalated to raised voices. After we had the baby disagreements and communication issues became frequent enough that we have fought now. Not because of the baby, but limited resources, new expectations, blah, blah, blah.
Considering your and DH's first 12 years included a gender change (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong), that's way past amazing and well into full-blown miracle territory. Kudos for you too.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 16, 2011 17:38:09 GMT -5
[ Does anyone claim that because she didn't change her name she must not love him? Yes, they do. Which is why I do not go out of my way to correct anyone if they mistake my last name. I did it ONCE and recieved a pretty intense interrogation about my reasonings. WOW Is it just me or do people seem to be getting ruder and ruder? Why anyone would think that your reasoning is any of their business is beyond me... It always amazes me how rude people can be... The sad part is that not only are they rude but they are also totally oblivious to how rude they are... Someone asked my why I chose to reject my husband by not taking his name. WTF? If he doesn't care, why do you, Bucko?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 17:38:42 GMT -5
"I didn't HAVE to have the ring at all. I told DF I didn't need one, and I meant it. He wanted me to have one, and wear one. Was I supposed to deny him that pleasure just to make some kind of point about how unmaterialistic I am? "
Ok so maybe he's the materialistic one? Wouldn't be that uncommon. I think the bigger symbolism is why did he want you to have one? Why did he care if you wore one? Just because it's a "status symbol" doesn't always mean it's the person wearing it who's treating it as such.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 16, 2011 17:41:25 GMT -5
I didn't change my last name the last time I was married. I told my husband beforehand I wasn't going to and he swore he was fine with it.
Any time we had a disagreement, though, he would ask what was wrong with his name and that he thought both people should have the same last name.
I always assured him that there was absolutely nothing wrong with his last name, but if he wanted to change his last name to mine, it was okay with me.
Of course, his changing HIS name was unthinkable. I was licensed in five states at the time, had all my investments, bank accounts, insurances, cars, rental property etc in my name-- no way was I going through all that for some archaic ego trip of his.
I have bff who did not change hers, either. She has two children: one boy and one girl. The boy has her husbands last name and the girl has hers.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 17:44:31 GMT -5
"no way was I going through all that for some archaic ego trip of his"
Did you get an engagement ring so that you could have an archaic ego trip? lol
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:45:09 GMT -5
Ok so maybe he's the materialistic one? Wouldn't be that uncommon. I think the bigger symbolism is why did he want you to have one? Why did he care if you wore one? Just because it's a "status symbol" doesn't always mean it's the person wearing it who's treating it as such.
I honestly don't know why it was so important to him, other than the fact that he probably believed on some level I really wanted it even though I insisted I didn't and he didn't want to let me down. Part of it may have been that he was engaged before and getting a ring is just what you do when you're engaged. And yes, part of it may have been letting the world know that we were together in some tangible way.
But I guess the idea that the ring is supposed to prove how special and important you are to anyone is what really, REALLY skeeves me out, whether it's coming from the guy or the girl. If I wanted my ring to make any kind of statement, it would have been something like "you don't have to spend a ton of money on the ring in order to celebrate your engagement." Which is, I suppose, a sort of anti-status symbol in its way...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 17:49:56 GMT -5
I honestly don't know why it was so important to him, other than the fact that he probably believed on some level I really wanted it even though I insisted I didn't and he didn't want to let me down. Or, it's a way for him to show the world that he can provide for you. If you tell everyone you're engaged, but don't have a ring, some of them will naturally assume he couldn't afford one or whatever. You're the one who wears it through the engagement and maybe beyond, but he's the one who traditionally buys it. He's the one showing off. Just like sending flowers to her office. He's the one showing off in that case, although she also gets to show off that she can land a guy that's able to afford whatever the status symbol of choice is.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 17:50:14 GMT -5
Any time we had a disagreement, though, he would ask what was wrong with his name and that he thought both people should have the same last name.
THAT is why my only rule is that you speak up and make it totally clear to me when something is that important to you. I've literally had relationships (romantic and non) end over the fact that someone had a giant problem with me that they didn't bother to tell me about until it was "too late." Painful lesson that I had to learn a few times over before it sunk in, but now I go to great lengths to make sure DF is comfortable enough with me to tell me when something is going to bother him this much.
I'm not sure what we'll do if something is of hill-dying importance to both of us and we want opposite things. That hasn't happened yet. Hopefully when/if it does, we can work out a compromise that won't leave either of us feeling bitter and resentful.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 17:54:19 GMT -5
"Or, it's a way for him to show the world that he can provide for you."
Which almost seems like it's an "see, I'm an adult" symbol. I can see that, my gf didn't really want anything, but I definitely felt like telling people "we're gonna get married, but we haven't set a date yet, and i didnt' get her anything" felt either like it wasn't really serious, or like...well...like i must not be taking it seriously. It would have felt like "a whim" I guess, like I must not have ever thought about it or I'd have saved up and got her something. Showing it off is frankly not important, I dont' think most people even realize it's her engagement gift...but it felt important somehow to get her something in order to feel like it was "adult".
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achelois
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Post by achelois on May 16, 2011 17:55:23 GMT -5
No engagement ring. We wore matching gold bands. He got the better end of that deal--more gold; he wore size 14, I wore a 7
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 18:00:13 GMT -5
I can see that, my gf didn't really want anything, but I definitely felt like telling people "we're gonna get married, but we haven't set a date yet, and i didnt' get her anything" felt either like it wasn't really serious, or like...well...like i must not be taking it seriously.Ah, now a status symbol in THAT sense doesn't push my buttons in the same way. I'm trying to figure out why... because either way, you're still trying to "prove something" to outsiders and that's the part I'm getting all fussed about... but for some reason, "tangible symbol to show that we're engaged and it's going to happen for real" doesn't bother me nearly as much as "tangible symbol to show how much my man loves me / I love my woman." Hmm... okay, I concede. One way or another, the ring is a status symbol and I'm happy to have it, whatever our innermost reasons were for getting it
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 16, 2011 18:06:06 GMT -5
"Ah, now a status symbol in THAT sense doesn't push my buttons in the same way. I'm trying to figure out why... because either way, you're still trying to "prove something" to outsiders and that's the part I'm getting all fussed about... but for some reason, "tangible symbol to show that we're engaged and it's going to happen for real" doesn't bother me nearly as much as "tangible symbol to show how much my man loves me / I love my woman." "
Because one way is saying "hey look at me and how great I am and how much guys must adore me to buy me something so nice" while the other one says "I'm serious about my feelings for you and I don't want anyone to think otherwise"? I think the strangest part is they both come from a type of insecurity. Insecurity that people will think you're childish or not serious...and insecurity that the only way people can value you is by spending money on you.
I think the interesting part is that everyone seems to treat it as "tangible signal it's really going to happen"...but in all reality, do you think people ever really go through with it because "well, i bought her a ring, i'd be out some money if i didn't marry her". I think the real show of seriousness is that it eliminates an excuse guys use "oh we can't get married, i can't afford a ring for you *wink wink nod nod*"
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 18:12:40 GMT -5
I think the strangest part is they both come from a type of insecurity. Insecurity that people will think you're childish or not serious...and insecurity that the only way people can value you is by spending money on you.
Very true. It's funny, I used to be a lot more private about my relationships - at my previous job, I never EVER talked about my boyfriend or social life or any of it. Now, I share that kind of info freely. This conversation has me wondering whether I'm just more open than I used to be (which is what I used to think) or if it stems from insecurity - I work with a lot more people my age now, maybe I'm afraid they'll judge me if I don't proffer certain information about my life and relationship status.
Food for thought anyway.
I think the real show of seriousness is that it eliminates an excuse guys use "oh we can't get married, i can't afford a ring for you *wink wink nod nod*"
Aha, you hit on my dastardly motive for not requiring a ring - cutting off the famous excuse in its tracks! ;D
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 18:16:32 GMT -5
I think the strangest part is they both come from a type of insecurity. Loop only owns an engagement ring because I felt like a total schmuck for not being able to afford one before we got married. She was totally fine with not having one, and I knew that, but it burned me up that other people would know I couldn't afford one if she didn't have one to wear. I still don't like her current ring because it's so cheap. She loves that damn thing and refuses to let me replace it though. To her it's a symbol that even though we were still super broke I put such a huge priority on trying to provide for her and make her happy. I had just joined the military and our oldest was a few months old, so we were really really broke. It was only a few hundred dollars, but that was a big hit to us at the time. Ten years later she still sees this symbol of how much of a priority she was to me. I still see a super cheap ring that doesn't measure up in the eyes of other people. Even though I know she loves it. Societal and marketing pressure is a real bitch.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 16, 2011 18:18:44 GMT -5
She loves that damn thing and refuses to let me replace it though. To her it's a symbol that even though we were still super broke I put such a huge priority on trying to provide for her and make her happy. I had just joined the military and our oldest was a few months old, so we were really really broke. It was only a few hundred dollars, but that was a big hit to us at the time.Aww I think that's incredibly sweet! Let her keep the ring. My mom has a similar story about her ring - young, broke, loved her tiny ring because it showed she was a priority, etc. She was still wearing it some 20 years later and would've carried on wearing it forever if the diamond hadn't fallen out. That's when my dad insisted on upgrading to something nicer. Same reasons as you. She loves her new ring but she speaks very fondly of her old one. And short of the diamond falling out, she wasn't parting with that thing.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on May 16, 2011 18:20:27 GMT -5
I think the interesting part is that everyone seems to treat it as "tangible signal it's really going to happen"...but in all reality, do you think people ever really go through with it because "well, i bought her a ring, i'd be out some money if i didn't marry her". I think the real show of seriousness is that it eliminates an excuse guys use "oh we can't get married, i can't afford a ring for you *wink wink nod nod*" In some circles it is a tangible symbol that he really proposed, and that the girl isn't just calling him "fiance" out of wishful thinking or because it is more respectable to live with a fiance than a boyfriend. I worked for quite a few years with people that had one fiance after another and never set a date or started planning a wedding. I'm not trying to make a value judgment, just in the community that I worked in that was the perception. Once you are married it is also pretty much an expectation to wear the wedding ring. I don't care to wear my ring because the stones stick out and make my hand feel unbalanced and they twist around my finger, so I take it off whenever I can. But I still put it back on to go certain places where I know people will judge me if I'm not wearing it or start gossiping about the state of my marriage.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 16, 2011 18:21:31 GMT -5
Loop has told me repeatedly that if I buy a new one she won't wear it. It'll go in the jewelry box and she'll keep wearing her engagement ring that she's been wearing everyday since I gave it to her. I'll say this, that damn ring is holding up surprisingly well for a cheap find at a mall jewelry store.
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