Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 12:00:35 GMT -5
So, I was thinking about this thread last night. I realized what my real problem with the idea of pageants is; you can't practice for a beauty contest. Compare it to a sport like softball, my daughter had never played before but decided she wanted to this spring. That's fine, we went and bought her a glove and bat before the season started so we could practice at home. Once the season started she had team practices for a few weeks before the season started, and I was still working on things with her at home. When the games finally rolled around she still had to get up in front of a crowd and perform, and there is an element of judging going on, however she's being judged on a skill. Something that you can improve with practice. A beauty pageant by it's very definition is a contest based on your looks. There's not much you can do to improve them unless you're going to get plastic surgery and botox for a minor. The idea of putting my daughter up on a stage and having strangers judge her on something she has no control over... it just skeeves me out. It sounds to me like a sure fire way to give your kid self esteem issues.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 13, 2011 12:06:56 GMT -5
The idea of putting my daughter up on a stage and having strangers judge her on something she has no control over... it just skeeves me out. It sounds to me like a sure fire way to give your kid self esteem issues.
Agreed... IF you force her into it. You might as well say flat-out to her that her looks are the best thing she has going for her.
However, if it's something she wants then I think that's a bit different.
Also, there IS a talent portion of the show although I agree that an ugly kid will never win even if they can juggle fire while singing the national anthem of eight different countries on roller skates.
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Post by ty on May 13, 2011 12:09:37 GMT -5
Until your little girl goes home crying and feeling like a loser because she's not pretty enough to win a cheap trophy.
Pageants are know to cause and create more psychological harm to little girls that enter them later in life. Especially when they have to face reality that they are no prettier or better than the average person on the planet.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 12:14:09 GMT -5
The idea of putting my daughter up on a stage and having strangers judge her on something she has no control over... it just skeeves me out. It sounds to me like a sure fire way to give your kid self esteem issues
I agree, but I do think there is a learning experience there too.
Yeah on the softball field she is judged on her skills, but we all know and have heard on here time and time again about how first impressions are everything, which focus mainly on how you present yourself.
If I show up in ratty jeans and a tube top unless I am going for a hooker or stripper position nobody is going to care what my skills are, my resume has been pushed into the shred pile.
Beauty pagents are an different ball of wax than an interview, but I can see them being a good learn tool as "Jami" (with a little heart over the i) wins based on her looks and how that does indeed happen on a regular basis and how "Jami" might be in trouble several years down the road once her looks fade.
You don't have to be a Toddlers and Tiaras mom about it and beat into your daughter that her entire self worth is wrapped up in how she looks.
Like or not no matter how skilled you are you are always at some point going to be judged on how you look. Just look at that thread on the old YM about braces and how people judge others without perfectly straight teeth.
I'm actually looking into getting mine cosmetically changed because while I can pretend all I want my teeth don't matter, I've heard it enough from people who know me that their first impression when they saw my front teeth was "OMG".
Fortuantely I can fix it for $200 since it looks the way it does because I busted it years ago.
I wouldn't want my daughter to feel she needs to get bigger boobs to get ahead in life, but I am not going to pretend that her appearance doesn't matter either.
There is a point where it doesn't matter, my former boss could probably dress like a hobo and still be respected but it's taken him A LONG time to get to the point of where he's got so much power/skilks/respect that no one notices what the man is wearing anymore.
But he still wears a suit when called for. ;D
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 12:15:34 GMT -5
Also, there IS a talent portion of the show although I agree that an ugly kid will never win even if they can juggle fire while singing the national anthem of eight different countries on roller skates. Exactly! Dress it up however you want, it's still a beauty contest. It's a bunch of little girls being ranked based on how pretty they are. Which is fine if you're up near the top, but there are a lot more girls that won't be, and all they learned is that they aren't pretty enough. Sounds like a pretty harsh pill for a little girl to swallow.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 13, 2011 12:15:40 GMT -5
DQ, karma. So much truth in your post.
I don't know if pageants are the best way to communicate those truths to small children, but that doesn't mean they're worthless by any means.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2011 12:16:25 GMT -5
Until your little girl goes home crying and feeling like a loser because she's not pretty enough to win a cheap trophy. Pageants are know to cause and create more psychological harm to little girls that enter them later in life. Especially when they have to face reality that they are no prettier or better than the average person on the planet. Or they feel like a loser because they struck out at the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded when their team was behind by 1. I didn't say I was a fan of pageants, but I can see that there could be some positive out of competing in one.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 12:16:43 GMT -5
So, I was thinking about this thread last night. I realized what my real problem with the idea of pageants is; you can't practice for a beauty contest. Yes you can. There are speeches and interviews and choice of clothing and talent portions. I participated in 2 pageants as a teen. I won one, and placed in the second. It was not the prettiest girl that won either pageant. It was the girl that presented herself the best and that is totally controllable. Learning to present well is an very transferable skill.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 12:19:55 GMT -5
Or they feel like a loser because they struck out at the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded when their team was behind by 1. That girl can spend all off season in the batting cages and come back way better the next year. The girl who comes in last place at a beauty pageant because she has a horse face can't do anything about it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2011 12:21:43 GMT -5
Or they feel like a loser because they struck out at the bottom of the ninth with the bases loaded when their team was behind by 1. That girl can spend all off season in the batting cages and come back way better the next year. The girl who comes in last place at a beauty pageant because she has a horse face can't do anything about it. To a certain point. There's more to performance than the skills, there's also a mental aspect that requires performance under pressure, and some people will never have it. I also agree with Later. I was in 1 pageant as a teen, and a horsefaced chick won. It had nothing to do with the fact that her grandmother was the president of the service club that sponsored it. It was a fantastic lesson in nepotism.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 12:23:36 GMT -5
I don't know if pageants are the best way to communicate those truths to small children, but that doesn't mean they're worthless by any means.
I agree and it is certainly not a situation I'd purposefully stick my daughter in just to use as a learning opportunity.
They also go against every "femi-nazi" instinct that I have.
But I also accept that we are judged on our appearances and it doesn't matter if I don't like it, that's life.
At some point my DD will realize that too. If it comes from wanting to compete in a beauty pagent then that is where it comes from.
I'd seize the opportunity if it presented itself that way, but no way I'd manufacture the lesson in that manner.
Does it bother me that ONE TOOTH seems to carry so much impact? Sure it does and it is embarassing to think about sometimes despite pretending that it doesn't bother me.
My parents and DH can say all they want that how my teeth look do not matter that is "what is on the inside" that counts.
Well an interviewer doesn't give two shits what is on my inside when I walk in his door, all he's going to see is my tooth.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 12:31:08 GMT -5
The girl who comes in last place at a beauty pageant because she has a horse face can't do anything about it. Yeah, that's life. There is always going to be someone smarter/prettier/talented/successful than I am. Doesn't mean I am going to go run out and get a boob job because I know that unless I go to an insane extreme there is still always going to be someone bigger chested than I am. I was taught to work with what I have if I can't change it. I just have to accept that the job of stripper or porn star are out of my reach. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I also can't make myself taller, so I have to accept I am never going to be a model or basketball player. Doesn't mean that I am doomed, I need to find something where being short doesn't matter and I have. Only time it sucks is when I have a 6 foot tall co-worker who puts everything on the top shelf. ![>:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/angry.png) I can either wallow about all the physical things I can't change about my appearance or I can deal with the things I can (like my teeth, wearing heels instead of flats) and accept that some things are just not in the cards for me.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 12:33:45 GMT -5
Yeah, that's life. There is always going to be someone smarter/prettier/talented/successful than I am. Sure, but do you really think that's a lesson that a 9 year old girl needs to learn in a potentially embarrassing and public way?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 12:39:11 GMT -5
Sure, but do you really think that's a lesson that a 9 year old girl needs to learn in potentially embarrassing and public way?
Dark, I said I'd wrestle with it and pagents do go against everything I believe and every femi-nazi bone in my body.
Not to mention DH has a fit even when I JOKINGLY suggest putting our baby in a beauty pagent.
That being said I think there is a difference between me deliberately putting her in a pagent and her wanting to do a pagent.
Would I let DD at nine do it? I honestly cannot answer that and I know there is no way I'd be making her do pagents because I want her to.
If she wants to do one I find that a little different. I am not totally opposed to it if that is something she really wants to try.
If she didn't win then yes I'd use it as a learning opportunity about why so and so won and she didn't. I'd also spend time focusing on all the thing she was GOOD at during the pagent.
I think with Toddlers and Tiaras the problem comes from the MOMS browbeating the daughters for not winning for whatever reason, not the pagent itself, IMHO.
I can handle not winning, I'd not be able to handle my parents being ashamed of me and yelling at me for missing that dance step or smudging my make-up.
I would not be ashamed or upset of DD not winning a pagent. I'd be proud of her for giving something she wants a try, but maybe this isn't the right fit for her so let's go find something that is.
At least that is how I hope I will handle it, I am currently just dealing with learning how to keep her away from light sockets and power cords. ;D
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2011 12:42:05 GMT -5
Yeah, that's life. There is always going to be someone smarter/prettier/talented/successful than I am. Sure, but do you really think that's a lesson that a 9 year old girl needs to learn in a potentially embarrassing and public way? I'm not sure it is really that embarassing and humiliating. Losing sucks, and the pageants don't just score you on looks, or so they say.........
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 12:49:13 GMT -5
and the pageants don't just score you on looks, or so they say......... I believe it too, my invisible pet unicorn told me they're really judging you based on how pretty you are on the inside...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2011 12:51:15 GMT -5
and the pageants don't just score you on looks, or so they say......... I believe it too, my invisible pet unicorn told me they're really judging you based on how pretty you are on the inside... Like I said, the winner of the pageant that I was in was the horse faced dumber than a stump granddaughter of the president of the service club that sponsored the pageant. funny how that works. it also taught me not to rely on my looks for anything.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on May 13, 2011 13:00:18 GMT -5
/The girl who comes in last place at a beauty pageant because she has a horse face can't do anything about it.
Yeah, that's life. There is always going to be someone smarter/prettier/talented/successful than I am. /
True? And FALSE! The pageant we went to had beautiful girls and not so beautiful BUT spiritual as no one else! They were visible to everyone by the fact that they wore some cool hats (as for everyday life hats)...some hairstyles that is memorable...some clothes that stood out. Their representation of themselves was infectious. They could make girls dance and sing along. They could make up some games. They were the best! I still even remember some of their names. There was NOTHING unpleasant about those kids and I knew immediately some of them will win! And most of them did. And yes they deserved it!
Again I am saying - you who don't know never been and have no idea - WHY do you speak?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 13:08:41 GMT -5
Again I am saying - you who don't know never been and have no idea - WHY do you speak? Honestly? I usually skip your posts because I have hard time figuring out what the heck you're saying.
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tloonya
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Post by tloonya on May 13, 2011 13:09:42 GMT -5
So keep skipping...how hars WAS THAT this time?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 13:12:43 GMT -5
This time you asked a question, and I actually understood it, so I figured I'd give you an answer.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 13:13:23 GMT -5
You need to look at the whole picture. If DD is doing well in school, has a lot of interests, etc., then capitalizing on being pretty isn't going to be detrimental to her development. Nothing wrong with wanting to be a princess once in awhile. If that were her entire existence (I don't need to study hard/be nice to people/plan for a career because I'm pretty), that would be another thing.
I do think that learning how to compete, how to stand in front of an audience and perform, how to lose, etc. are valuable lessons although they can be learned other ways such as team sports. And, if she ends up in an environment like Toddlers and Tiaras, she may either have the sense to realize she doesn't want any part of it or it will be a good opportunity to talk with her about values and priorities.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 13:17:51 GMT -5
But, i also am concerned about her feeling overwhelmed, freezing on stage. But, then again, if you never try, you can never work through those things
I used to have horrid stage fright but my speech teacher in HS expected me to do speech competition as part of my grade (required for everyone in the class, not just me).
I am so glad now that I was "forced" to do because I learned a lot and got over my stage fright. It's really helped me in terms of job interviews and other areas in my life.
I still have nerves, but I've learned to control them instead of let them control me.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 13, 2011 13:19:14 GMT -5
You need to look at the whole picture. If DD is doing well in school, has a lot of interests, etc., then capitalizing on being pretty isn't going to be detrimental to her development. Nothing wrong with wanting to be a princess once in awhile. If that were her entire existence (I don't need to study hard/be nice to people/plan for a career because I'm pretty), that would be another thing.
How do you keep them separate, though? I'm a little girl, I go compete in these contests which mostly judge me on my looks - and I play soccer on Saturday. I win the contests that are judged on me looking pretty, and I'm not such a great soccer player.
But who cares? I still get to win something, and besides, I get a lot more attention when I win pageants than when I win soccer games. My TEAM wins soccer games, I win beauty pageants. And I get a lot more attention that way anyhow, since I'm not the person scoring the winning goals for my team.
In that situation, I might carry on with soccer if I had fun with my teammates or something, but I would definitely be internalizing the pageant success more - and by extension, getting the clear message that my looks were going to go further in my life than my athletic abilities.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 13, 2011 13:21:01 GMT -5
I used to have horrid stage fright but my speech teacher in HS expected me to do speech competition as part of my grade (required for everyone in the class, not just me).
Speech classes are good for that. So are music performances, theater programs, dance programs, improv classes. Kids with stage fright should be encouraged to get over it, but there are a ton of healthier venues than pageants.
I think if I DID have a kid who was into the pageant thing, I'd be encouraging them to act or dance or sing also. Not only would it enhance their talent for the talent portion of the pageants, it might actually redirect their pageant abilities to a healthier medium.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 13, 2011 13:22:41 GMT -5
getting the clear message that my looks were going to go further in my life than my athletic abilities. To be fair though, that's probably true for most people. I know a lot more good looking chicks who married well than I do professional athletes.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 13:22:51 GMT -5
and by extension, getting the clear message that my looks were going to go further in my life than my athletic abilities. ::cough David Beckham ::cough:: ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 13, 2011 13:24:50 GMT -5
getting the clear message that my looks were going to go further in my life than my athletic abilities. To be fair though, that's probably true for most people. I know a lot more good looking chicks who married well than I do professional athletes. I dunno about that. I'd say my athletic abilities have done more for me than my looks.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 13, 2011 13:26:27 GMT -5
I dunno about that. I'd say my athletic abilities have done more for me than my looks.If you would just get more philsophical and wear some make-up once and awhile . . . ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 13, 2011 13:26:30 GMT -5
I should have said, getting the clear message that my looks were going to go further in my life than my discipline, talent, dedication, hard work, team spirit - all the good qualities kids are supposed to cultivate from participating in sports, not the sports themselves.
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