The Trump/HarrisDebate

[djAdvocate]

you will note TWO things from that quote:

1) Trump actually says that he is NOT talking about abortion in that quote. he doesn't say "killing a baby after it is born is abortion", nor does he even IMPLY it. he calls it what everyone here calls it: murder/infanticide.

2) He claims that Walz (not Harris, or more broadly, Democrats) favors it. i think he is mis-ascribing this non-fact. Walz never said anything like that.

in other words, like the fake cat eating claim, this is going nowhere, and doesn't even apply to Harris. i am not sure why he is campaigning on these fringe issues. the only thing they do is to draw oxygen away from criticism that might conceivably stick.

i can think of a devastating FACTUAL claim that Trump could make against Biden/Harris that would totally stick. it would put them wildly on the defensive. but he is clearly more interested in setting his hair on fire than making any sort of substantive claim. and no, i am not going to make the claim here. i will explain it after the election is over if he continues to fail to make it, which in all likelihood, he will.

[djAdvocate]

he could have said "Walz probably thinks that it is OK to kill babies after they are born, as well- in the spirit of Johnathan Swift". that would be a remark he could get away with. but no, instead, he makes a claim that Walz will deny and that nobody can prove.

he is not very good at strategic thinking.

[djAdvocate]

this article covers it very well:

www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-falsely-claims-democrats-support-abortions-after-birth/


zero abortions have occurred in Minnesota after 30 weeks.
zero. and only two between 21-30 weeks.


meanwhile, we have a guy who is personally responsible for the death of 1M adults making the case that Democrats support infanticide. that is truly rich.

[happyhoix]

Sept 15, 2024 14:35:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2024 7:42:42 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Speaking of Trump seizing stories to prove a point (even if they’re fake), JD Vance posted a video that he claimed was proof of Haitians eating cats.

It shows African immigrants (not Haitians) in Dayton (not Springfield) grilling, and the animals being grilled look exactly like whole chickens.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jd-vance-cats-grill-chicken-ohio-b2612999.html

As someone in the article comments, JD Vance has only seen Dino shaped pieces of chicken, apparently.

Meanwhile, because Vance and Trump keep insisting Haitians are eating pets (despite no real evidence that isn’t chicken based) Springfield has had to close their schools/ and/or hospital for three days this week, due to threats of violence.

If they really cared about Ohio, as they claim, they should be calming this down, not fanning the flames.

vance is proving to be just as insecure as his master.

Oh this gets so much better. 

vance admits he made the story up in order to get media attention on the disaster immigration is causing.

www.nj.com/politics/2024/09/calls-for-jd-vance-to-resign-after-he-admits-that-he-created-pet-eating-story-about-immigrants.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=redditsocial

then, Trump, who I strongly suspect is having some kind of mental health issue, posts on Truth Social that he hates Taylor Swift. 

That’s all he posted - just I hate Taylor Swift. Like a giant fucking toddler. 

[djAdvocate]

[happyhoix]

Another MAGA politician admits she was propagating a lie.

MTG claimed Harris got the debate questions in advance, and then claimed the whistleblower who reported that info was killed in a car crash. Now she admits the part about the car crash was a fib.

But still insists Harris got the questions in advance. Because no way she would know they would ask about the economy, inflation, the war in Ukraine, or migration unless those questions were leaked.

www.rawstory.com/marjorie-taylor-greene-admits-spreading-misinformation-harris-debate-questions/

[Tennesseer]

Sept 16, 2024 6:44:20 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Another MAGA politician admits she was propagating a lie.

MTG claimed Harris got the debate questions in advance, and then claimed the whistleblower who reported that info was killed in a car crash. Now she admits the part about the car crash was a fib.

But still insists Harris got the questions in advance. Because no way she would know they would ask about the economy, inflation, the war in Ukraine, or migration unless those questions were leaked.

www.rawstory.com/marjorie-taylor-greene-admits-spreading-misinformation-harris-debate-questions/

"The ABC whistleblower who claimed Kamala Harris was given debate questions ahead of the debate has died in a car crash according to news reports," Greene posted on social media. In fact, "news reports" did not say that. Instead, Greene linked to a Wordpress blog.

Must be the same news reports sources where trump heard Springfield, Ohio Haitian immigrants were eating their neighbors' pet dogs and cats.

[Tennesseer]

NPR article dated September 11, 2024.

2. The spotlight should now be on Trump’s incoherence and general lack of any serious grasp on policy.

Coming into the debate, we noted that if Harris is “able to acquit herself passably, the spotlight and scrutiny should be heavily on Trump.”

That’s because Trump did not have a very good debate against Biden in June, but his serious problems — his lack of substance and repeated lies — were overshadowed by Biden’s disastrous performance, maybe the worst of any presidential candidate in history.

With a more-than-competent performance from Harris Tuesday, Trump’s lies, meandering, conspiracies and often general incoherence was made even more glaring.

He wandered through conspiracies about, not just the election, but also about who is currently president (Joe Biden), the usual about immigrants who (aren’t actually) coming from “mental institutions and insane asylums” and the newly unusual (and debunked) about immigrants who (are not) “eating the dogs” or “cats.”

Trump got the conspiracy wrong, though, because it was about ducks, not dogs.

Trump even got wrong the actual facts of Harris’ misleading charge that Trump predicted “a bloodbath” if the outcome of this election is “not to his liking.”

“It was a different term,” Trump said, “and it was a term that related to energy because they have destroyed our energy business.”

It was the correct term. He did say “bloodbath” back in March, but he was talking in the context of Chinese tariffs, the auto industry and a transition to electric vehicles — not “our energy business.”

It’s the very kind of thing that would have had Democrats nervous about their octogenarian former candidate and Republicans “outraged” on cable news about Biden’s mental state.

Complete article here: The debate between Harris and Trump wasn’t close — and 4 other takeaways

[Opti]

Trump appears to have no policies whatsoever. Just causing chaos, lying and hanging with people like Laura Loomer. The GOP does not want Vance, so they will just keep with Trump. Trump makes less sense every day.

[happyhoix]

Sept 16, 2024 7:40:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Trump appears to have no policies whatsoever. Just causing chaos, lying and hanging with people like Laura Loomer. The GOP does not want Vance, so they will just keep with Trump. Trump makes less sense every day.

well, Trump would have to agree to step down for Vance to take over, just like Biden agreed to let Harris take the reins. 

Biden did it because he thought it gave the dems the surest chance to win, which he thought would be best for the country. So far it looks like he was exactly right. 

Can you imagine Trump deciding to step down and let anyone else be in charge? Can you imagine Trump thinking anyone but himself would be the best option to win this election? 


Only way Vance would ever take over would be if Trump had a hamburder related heart attack and died. Absolutely no chance GOPers could talk Trump into voluntarily stepping down. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sept 16, 2024 6:44:20 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Another MAGA politician admits she was propagating a lie.

MTG claimed Harris got the debate questions in advance, and then claimed the whistleblower who reported that info was killed in a car crash. Now she admits the part about the car crash was a fib.

But still insists Harris got the questions in advance. Because no way she would know they would ask about the economy, inflation, the war in Ukraine, or migration unless those questions were leaked.

www.rawstory.com/marjorie-taylor-greene-admits-spreading-misinformation-harris-debate-questions/

Well I mean it is totally far fetched that someone would actually debate prep by reviewing key topics and rehearsing their answers.  It's not like there is an entire class on the subject that is offered at the High school and college level and would be something that someone who was former prosecutor would likely have been expected to developed very polished skills in.

It couldn't possibly be that her competitor is someone who thinks he's too smart, too much of a manly man to have to rehearse/do research and even if they stapled answers to his forehead would still go completely off the cuff because he thinks he knows better than anyone else.  

It HAS to be she cheated.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 16, 2024 7:15:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

NPR article dated September 11, 2024.

2. The spotlight should now be on Trump’s incoherence and general lack of any serious grasp on policy.

Coming into the debate, we noted that if Harris is “able to acquit herself passably, the spotlight and scrutiny should be heavily on Trump.”

That’s because Trump did not have a very good debate against Biden in June, but his serious problems — his lack of substance and repeated lies — were overshadowed by Biden’s disastrous performance, maybe the worst of any presidential candidate in history.

With a more-than-competent performance from Harris Tuesday, Trump’s lies, meandering, conspiracies and often general incoherence was made even more glaring.

He wandered through conspiracies about, not just the election, but also about who is currently president (Joe Biden), the usual about immigrants who (aren’t actually) coming from “mental institutions and insane asylums” and the newly unusual (and debunked) about immigrants who (are not) “eating the dogs” or “cats.”

Trump got the conspiracy wrong, though, because it was about ducks, not dogs.

Trump even got wrong the actual facts of Harris’ misleading charge that Trump predicted “a bloodbath” if the outcome of this election is “not to his liking.”

“It was a different term,” Trump said, “and it was a term that related to energy because they have destroyed our energy business.”

It was the correct term. He did say “bloodbath” back in March, but he was talking in the context of Chinese tariffs, the auto industry and a transition to electric vehicles — not “our energy business.”

It’s the very kind of thing that would have had Democrats nervous about their octogenarian former candidate and Republicans “outraged” on cable news about Biden’s mental state.

Complete article here: The debate between Harris and Trump wasn’t close — and 4 other takeaways

this outcome was entirely predictable by anyone paying attention.

[Tennesseer]

The Borowitz Report

Vance Hopes Talking Nonstop About Pet-Eating Will Make Him Seem Less Weird

SPRINGFIELD, OH (The Borowitz Report)—JD Vance revealed on Monday that he is talking nonstop about pet-eating in the hopes of dispelling the widespread impression that he is weird.

The Ohio senator, who has been struggling to simulate human behavior, believes he has found the answer by appearing to be obsessed with people eating cats and dogs.

Vance said that spreading baseless rumors about immigrant pet-consumption makes him “way more relatable than Tim Walz.”

“Any weirdo can order a donut,” he said. “Talking incessantly about pet-eating is something normal people do.”

Amid rumors that Vance plans to visit, the people of Springfield, Ohio have started building a wall.

Vance Hopes Talking Nonstop About Pet-Eating Will Make Him Seem Less Weird

[Opti]

on Springfield, OH building a wall

[Tennesseer]

The Trump Campaign’s Haitian Migrant Lies Are A Dangerous New Low
Trump and Vance spun a known lie into the “truth,” and that's terrifying.

The Big Picture and Todd Beeton
Sep 17, 2024

We all saw it: Donald Trump’s unhinged elevation of a fringe online rumor about Haitian migrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio into the national conversation during last week’s debate.

Predictably, in the wake of that moment, the false rumor spread and metastasized leading Trump’s followers to call in bomb threats, shut down buildings including schools and hospitals, and put a target on the community of Springfield, Ohio. This is classic Trump, the stochastic terrorist.

Here at The Big Picture, we have been raising the alarm about Donald Trump’s use of stochastic terror to demonize his political foes and signal to his followers that violence is an appropriate response when dealing with those who Trump targets as his enemies.

Jay Kuo defined the term:

“Stochastic terrorism” is defined as “the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted.” This kind of terrorism isn’t covered under any criminal laws in the United States because we give it a pass under freedom of speech. But that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t seek to limit it where we can, especially on big, private social media platforms."

Now, once again, we are confronted with Trump’s brand of political terror as we witness him, his running mate J.D. Vance, and the right-wing MAGA ecosystem spread dangerous lies about Haitian migrants.

In a way, this is Donald Trump’s tired old playbook turned up to eleven. He has gotten everyone in his orbit to double down on the attacks, and predictably it is having real-world ramifications that, thankfully do not include actual violence. Yet.

But what is perhaps most disturbing in this iteration of Trump’s terror campaign is the unapologetic denial of truth and the bizarre acknowledgment that making up stories is perfectly justified, even if it puts people in danger. To the Trump campaign, the fact that the claims are not true literally doesn’t matter.

In this piece, I’ll take a look at the origins of the Trump-Vance lie about Haitian migrants, how officials in Ohio, including Republicans, are trying to tamp down the backlash they’re experiencing, and how this time, the right-wing’s insistence that truth doesn’t matter signals a step even closer to the authoritarian worldview that Trump hopes to use to run this country were he to win in November.

Rest of article here: The Trump Campaign’s Haitian Migrant Lies Are A Dangerous New Low

[teen persuasion]

Sept 17, 2024 15:53:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The Trump Campaign’s Haitian Migrant Lies Are A Dangerous New Low
Trump and Vance spun a known lie into the “truth,” and that's terrifying.

The Big Picture and Todd Beeton
Sep 17, 2024

We all saw it: Donald Trump’s unhinged elevation of a fringe online rumor about Haitian migrants eating pets in Springfield, Ohio into the national conversation during last week’s debate.

Predictably, in the wake of that moment, the false rumor spread and metastasized leading Trump’s followers to call in bomb threats, shut down buildings including schools and hospitals, and put a target on the community of Springfield, Ohio. This is classic Trump, the stochastic terrorist.

Here at The Big Picture, we have been raising the alarm about Donald Trump’s use of stochastic terror to demonize his political foes and signal to his followers that violence is an appropriate response when dealing with those who Trump targets as his enemies.

Jay Kuo defined the term:

“Stochastic terrorism” is defined as “the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted.” This kind of terrorism isn’t covered under any criminal laws in the United States because we give it a pass under freedom of speech. But that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t seek to limit it where we can, especially on big, private social media platforms."

Now, once again, we are confronted with Trump’s brand of political terror as we witness him, his running mate J.D. Vance, and the right-wing MAGA ecosystem spread dangerous lies about Haitian migrants.

In a way, this is Donald Trump’s tired old playbook turned up to eleven. He has gotten everyone in his orbit to double down on the attacks, and predictably it is having real-world ramifications that, thankfully do not include actual violence. Yet.

But what is perhaps most disturbing in this iteration of Trump’s terror campaign is the unapologetic denial of truth and the bizarre acknowledgment that making up stories is perfectly justified, even if it puts people in danger. To the Trump campaign, the fact that the claims are not true literally doesn’t matter.

In this piece, I’ll take a look at the origins of the Trump-Vance lie about Haitian migrants, how officials in Ohio, including Republicans, are trying to tamp down the backlash they’re experiencing, and how this time, the right-wing’s insistence that truth doesn’t matter signals a step even closer to the authoritarian worldview that Trump hopes to use to run this country were he to win in November.

Rest of article here: The Trump Campaign’s Haitian Migrant Lies Are A Dangerous New Low

Good article, thanks Tenn!

ABC World News said that many/most of the bomb threats to Springfield were coming from overseas. Not sure what to make of that - foreign actors using the craziness to sow more discord in the US?

[Tiny]

Sept 16, 2024 7:40:08 GMT -5 Opti said:

Trump appears to have no policies whatsoever. Just causing chaos, lying and hanging with people like Laura Loomer. The GOP does not want Vance, so they will just keep with Trump. Trump makes less sense every day.

That's not true.  trump does have policies.  They are outlined in the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025.    trump has touched on many of the topics in that plan over many of his speeches.  
For example  Firing the thousands of corrupt government workers and replacing them with his own non-corrupt people.   Ending the Department of Education.  Changes to the military (to get his loyalists in) and increasing the size of the army.   

The GOP just wants to get trump voted into office.  And keeping people talking about "they're eating pets!!!"  and "I hate Taylor Swift"  and whatever else they can distract voters with means no one focuses on trump's actual policies. 




Project 2025 is pretty terrifying.  
You know how trump admires Hungary's leader Orban?   It's because what Orban did to Hungary is what trump and white nationalist conservatives - oh, I mean the Republican party want to do to America: 

www.reuters.com/world/europe/factbox-what-has-changed-hungary-during-orbans-12-year-rule-2022-03-31/

[thyme4change]

Someone pointed out that we should be happy that the Haitians are eating the geese from the local lake - as those geese are here - undocumented- from Canada. And, those geese are mean as hell!

🤣

[minnesotapaintlady]

Sept 18, 2024 9:48:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Someone pointed out that we should be happy that the Haitians are eating the geese from the local lake - as those geese are here - undocumented- from Canada. And, those geese are mean as hell!

🤣

My son and I were just talking about that last night while walking the lake.  People have been bitching about the geese here as long as I can remember.  Nobody would complain if someone grilled them up.

[bean29]

Sept 18, 2024 10:01:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Sept 18, 2024 9:48:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Someone pointed out that we should be happy that the Haitians are eating the geese from the local lake - as those geese are here - undocumented- from Canada. And, those geese are mean as hell!

🤣

My son and I were just talking about that last night while walking the lake.  People have been bitching about the geese here as long as I can remember.  Nobody would complain if someone grilled them up.

Remember when Carl used to post here?  Many (Most?) Haitians are here legally as Refugees.  I mentioned it to my DH this am, and he said that is true.  He said there is a small % of them that are illegal, but for Trump's base being all fired up about Illegal Aliens, Haitians are mostly not here illegally.  Bigotry and Hate is the point with many in their party.

[azucena]

FWIW as someone involved in conservative church circles with lots of anti-abortion folks, they are quite willing to continue to take their chances with Trump waffling on that issue rather than give Harris any benefit of the doubt of being a better leader. They are that committed to voting based solely on that issue which continues to be drummed into their heads weekly in some church services particularly in an election cycle. Plus, also not sure if Fox news has reported on his back and forth flips.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Sept 18, 2024 10:30:06 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Sept 18, 2024 10:01:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

My son and I were just talking about that last night while walking the lake.  People have been bitching about the geese here as long as I can remember.  Nobody would complain if someone grilled them up.

Remember when Carl used to post here?  Many (Most?) Haitians are here legally as Refugees.  I mentioned it to my DH this am, and he said that is true.  He said there is a small % of them that are illegal, but for Trump's base being all fired up about Illegal Aliens, Haitians are mostly not here illegally.  Bigotry and Hate is the point with many in their party.

The Haitian population in Springfield, OH is here legally but facts don't matter to the Trump supporters.  They're not eating cats and dogs either, but again...doesn't matter.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 18, 2024 9:48:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Someone pointed out that we should be happy that the Haitians are eating the geese from the local lake - as those geese are here - undocumented- from Canada. And, those geese are mean as hell!

🤣

the geese don't belong to anyone.
and if these people are starving, what is the problem?
seems like they are following Christ's edict and fending for themselves.

but of course, the geese and dogs and cats are not the issue.  the Haitians are the issue.  or, perhaps i should say that the nativists are the issue and everyone else is a victim, including some of the nativists.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 18, 2024 10:01:20 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Sept 18, 2024 9:48:27 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Someone pointed out that we should be happy that the Haitians are eating the geese from the local lake - as those geese are here - undocumented- from Canada. And, those geese are mean as hell!

🤣

My son and I were just talking about that last night while walking the lake.  People have been bitching about the geese here as long as I can remember.  Nobody would complain if someone grilled them up.

geese are nasty.  it is easy to see with this particular creature how awful dinosaurs might have been.  chasing around children, and shitting everywhere.

[thyme4change]

Sept 18, 2024 10:30:45 GMT -5 azucena said:

FWIW as someone involved in conservative church circles with lots of anti-abortion folks, they are quite willing to continue to take their chances with Trump waffling on that issue rather than give Harris any benefit of the doubt of being a better leader. They are that committed to voting based solely on that issue which continues to be drummed into their heads weekly in some church services particularly in an election cycle. Plus, also not sure if Fox news has reported on his back and forth flips.

Isn’t that a violation and the church should lose their tax exempt status?

Are you in Arizona?

[happyhoix]

Sept 18, 2024 10:39:31 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Sept 18, 2024 10:30:06 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Remember when Carl used to post here?  Many (Most?) Haitians are here legally as Refugees.  I mentioned it to my DH this am, and he said that is true.  He said there is a small % of them that are illegal, but for Trump's base being all fired up about Illegal Aliens, Haitians are mostly not here illegally.  Bigotry and Hate is the point with many in their party.

The Haitian population in Springfield, OH is here legally but facts don't matter to the Trump supporters.  They're not eating cats and dogs either, but again...doesn't matter.

I happened to see a news report about Springfield a few weeks before this cats and dogs thing came up and they were showcasing the town as a success story - a rust belt town with a declining population got a boost when the immigrants moved there. The opioid crisis has mad it hard for the local companies to find good blue collar workers but the Haitians show up, work hard and do a good job. Their cash influx and tax influx has boosted the town. Haiti is unfortunately total chaos right now, so now doubt the Haitians are thrilled to be living somewhere where their kids are safe and hard work earns them a decent lifestyle. It seemed like a win for everyone.

I also saw photos after all these stupid allegations came up showing locals eating at a Haitian owned restaurant in order to show support.

And a local Trump supporter, who claimed someone had stolen her cat Miss Sassy, found the naughty girl in the basement a few days later, and brought in a translator to help her apologize to her Haitian neighbors.

So I think the claim that Springfield is beleaguered by hordes of illegals is well and truly bullshit.

As a side note, my big boi cat with a tiny meow got shut in the master bedroom closet a few weeks back and was stuck there all night. It did not occur to me that anyone snuck into the house and ate him, although he is quite a chonk and I live around hill people who gladly eat raccoons and possums.

Apparently it didn’t bother him much because it happened again two weeks later. Head as empty as a dried gourd. Good thing he’s a first class lap sitter or he would be worthless.

[Tennesseer]

SNOPES: Photo Shows Packed Haitian Restaurant in Springfield, Ohio, Following False Claims
"This is Springfield!" said a Reddit user who posted the picture online.

A photo shows a Haitian restaurant in Springfield, Ohio, packed with customers following former U.S. President Donald Trump's attacks on the community.

Rating: True

Following former U.S. President Donald Trump's elevation of unfounded claims that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, had eaten pets and park animals, numerous bomb threats forced the closure of schools and public buildings in the small town.

Against this backdrop, pictures of a packed restaurant described as a Haitian eatery in Springfield began to go viral on multiple social media platforms, including Reddit, where it was described as showing Springfield residents dining at the restaurant:



This description is accurate. The photo was taken at a Haitian-Creole restaurant in Springfield, Ohio, named Rose Goute Creole on Sep. 13, 2024. Local television news outlet Dayton 24/7 Now captured several images of the large turnout including the one above. Further, The interior in the viral image matches images of the restaurant taken when it opened in July 2023.

"The restaurant staff was too busy to sit down with Dayton 24/7 Now," the outlet reported. "However, they did tell us Friday's turnout was far more than ever expected and the amount of support was overwhelming."

Because the image was taken at a Haitian restaurant in Springfield following Trump's elevation of baseless claims of pet-eating by the local Haitian community, the claim is "True."


SNOPES: Photo Shows Packed Haitian Restaurant in Springfield, Ohio, Following False Claims

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

We need more stories like this to show the Trumps and Vances of the world.

Hope all those people and more get out to vote in November and help shove the Maga movement back under the rock it came out from.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 18, 2024 18:29:07 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

We need more stories like this to show the Trumps and Vances of the world.

Hope all those people and more get out to vote in November and help shove the Maga movement back under the rock it came out from.

“Just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening,"
-donald trump

[azucena]

Sept 18, 2024 13:49:20 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sept 18, 2024 10:30:45 GMT -5 azucena said:

FWIW as someone involved in conservative church circles with lots of anti-abortion folks, they are quite willing to continue to take their chances with Trump waffling on that issue rather than give Harris any benefit of the doubt of being a better leader. They are that committed to voting based solely on that issue which continues to be drummed into their heads weekly in some church services particularly in an election cycle. Plus, also not sure if Fox news has reported on his back and forth flips.

Isn’t that a violation and the church should lose their tax exempt status?

Are you in Arizona?

Not sure if that's a rhetorical question. I'm in stl missouri so red state. Former church is very old school super conservative lutheran church missouri synod.

Fake evangelicals also love the way Trump stacked the courts so he earned their loyalty and unfortunately even his current brand of crazy isn't likely to sway him.

New church is evangelical lutheran church of America which is much more progressive to the point of being lgbtq affirming. Head pastor monthly newsletter about the election focused on Jesus love and helping the world overcome the hatred currently embedded in our communities and especially politics. Complete breath of fresh air.