Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 11:46:15 GMT -5
Bioethicists only have an opinion. No facts. viability is not an opinion. it is a fact. not too keen on your absolute, there, either. most people don't ONLY have opinions. including you.  But can the blob of cells think for itself when they are at the viable stage. Can you remember stuff which happened to you while you were in the womb? |
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 11:50:08 GMT -5
Can that little clump of cells attend school and print with a pencil in its current state (a clump of cells)? Can that little clump of cells crawl across the floor with its hands and legs in its current state (a clump of cells)? Can that little clump of cells sit in a highchair and eat fruit loops by hand in its current state (a clump of cells)? Just wondering. Life begins at fertilization. It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling. That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. You really are fucked up, aren't you. |
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 10, 2023 11:50:41 GMT -5
Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. sure it does. but it is rarely viewed that way. women are at greater risk from pregnancy than abortion. that is a fact. you know that, right?  AND women's health goes goes beyond the physical aspects of the nine months. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 10, 2023 11:58:31 GMT -5
viability is not an opinion. it is a fact. not too keen on your absolute, there, either. most people don't ONLY have opinions. including you. But can the blob of cells think for itself when they are at the viable stage. Can you remember stuff which happened to you while you were in the womb? no, but i can't remember being a toddler, either. are you advocating infanticide? |
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 12:01:48 GMT -5
scgal-what is your opinion of these red states (Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky) codifying abortion rights or protecting abortion rights? Would you overule the rights of voters in these states? Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights
Voters in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw wins related to abortion rights Tuesday Abortion rights supporters celebrated wins in four states Tuesday night, including the passage of a measure in Ohio that would add language to the state constitution enshrining the right to reproductive freedom, including abortion. Ohio voters passed the constitutional amendment with 56.6 percent of voters supporting it, with all precincts reporting as of Wednesday morning. Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw some wins related to abortion rights Tuesday. The state elections in Ohio and Virginia in particular attracted national attention, with many predicting the results could be a bellwether for 2024. Ohio’s vote marks the latest time voters have codified abortion rights since the Supreme Court in 2022 overturned Roe v. Wade. The state’s efforts mirror those in California, Vermont and Michigan to codify abortion rights last year. Meanwhile, ballot efforts to restrict abortion were defeated in Montana, Kentucky and Kansas. The last efforts to successfully limit abortion by ballot were constitutional amendments passed in Louisiana in 2020, and in Alabama and West Virginia in 2018 — before the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. While Ohio is the only state to vote directly on abortion access this year, advocates in at least four other states are aiming for similar votes in 2024. Abortion rights supporters are eyeing possible votes in Arizona, Colorado, Florida and Nevada. Rest of article here: Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 12:08:21 GMT -5
But can the blob of cells think for itself when they are at the viable stage. Can you remember stuff which happened to you while you were in the womb? no, but i can't remember being a toddler, either. are you advocating infanticide? Nope! My point is does that clump of cells (as scgal calls them) within the womb prior to viability know it is being aborted. The answer is no. |
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Post by tallguy on Nov 10, 2023 12:37:07 GMT -5
scgal -what is your opinion of these red states (Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky) codifying abortion rights or protecting abortion rights? Would you overule the rights of voters in these states? Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights
Voters in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw wins related to abortion rights Tuesday Abortion rights supporters celebrated wins in four states Tuesday night, including the passage of a measure in Ohio that would add language to the state constitution enshrining the right to reproductive freedom, including abortion. Ohio voters passed the constitutional amendment with 56.6 percent of voters supporting it, with all precincts reporting as of Wednesday morning. Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw some wins related to abortion rights Tuesday. The state elections in Ohio and Virginia in particular attracted national attention, with many predicting the results could be a bellwether for 2024. Ohio’s vote marks the latest time voters have codified abortion rights since the Supreme Court in 2022 overturned Roe v. Wade. The state’s efforts mirror those in California, Vermont and Michigan to codify abortion rights last year. Meanwhile, ballot efforts to restrict abortion were defeated in Montana, Kentucky and Kansas. The last efforts to successfully limit abortion by ballot were constitutional amendments passed in Louisiana in 2020, and in Alabama and West Virginia in 2018 — before the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. While Ohio is the only state to vote directly on abortion access this year, advocates in at least four other states are aiming for similar votes in 2024. Abortion rights supporters are eyeing possible votes in Arizona, Colorado, Florida and Nevada. Rest of article here: Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights Republicans now are suggesting that Ohio and the other states should ignore the vote results, saying things like, "Pure democracies are a bad way to run a country" and, "Direct democracy should not exist!" I guess that is easier than admitting you are on the wrong side of an issue and out-of-step with the majority. Not really American, by any standard, but easier.... |
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 10, 2023 14:07:14 GMT -5
Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights Not sure who else if anyone cares but I am sitting here questioning the word "codify". They did more than make it a "code", They made it "constitutional right". That makes it a much more powerful statement. |
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Post by scgal on Nov 10, 2023 14:19:42 GMT -5
Life begins at fertilization. It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling. That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. is a miscarriage murder? No...it is also not elective |
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Post by scgal on Nov 10, 2023 14:22:31 GMT -5
scgal -what is your opinion of these red states (Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky) codifying abortion rights or protecting abortion rights? Would you overule the rights of voters in these states? Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights
Voters in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw wins related to abortion rights Tuesday Abortion rights supporters celebrated wins in four states Tuesday night, including the passage of a measure in Ohio that would add language to the state constitution enshrining the right to reproductive freedom, including abortion. Ohio voters passed the constitutional amendment with 56.6 percent of voters supporting it, with all precincts reporting as of Wednesday morning. Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw some wins related to abortion rights Tuesday. The state elections in Ohio and Virginia in particular attracted national attention, with many predicting the results could be a bellwether for 2024. Ohio’s vote marks the latest time voters have codified abortion rights since the Supreme Court in 2022 overturned Roe v. Wade. The state’s efforts mirror those in California, Vermont and Michigan to codify abortion rights last year. Meanwhile, ballot efforts to restrict abortion were defeated in Montana, Kentucky and Kansas. The last efforts to successfully limit abortion by ballot were constitutional amendments passed in Louisiana in 2020, and in Alabama and West Virginia in 2018 — before the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. While Ohio is the only state to vote directly on abortion access this year, advocates in at least four other states are aiming for similar votes in 2024. Abortion rights supporters are eyeing possible votes in Arizona, Colorado, Florida and Nevada. Rest of article here: Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights If it went back to a federal issue I would |
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Nov 10, 2023 14:26:27 GMT -5
Please give a comparable example. Or any example. Bad enough that many doctors won't sterilize a woman of child-bearing age when the want it because "what if you get married someday and your husband wants children"? I don't GAF *what* he wants! Aside from the fact that I wouldn't marry someone who didn't feel the same way, it's MY body, MY choice. Same with abortion. Sorry I ment to reply, Just a few laws regarding a persons life Drinking age---law depends upon state Seatbelt laws firearm purchase laws |
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Post by scgal on Nov 10, 2023 14:28:40 GMT -5
Life begins at fertilization. It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling. That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. You really are fucked up, aren't you. That is exactly the way I see people who elect to have an abortion they are seriously fucked up. |
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 10, 2023 14:42:42 GMT -5
You really are fucked up, aren't you. That is exactly the way I see people who elect to have an abortion they are seriously fucked up. So instead of this seriously fucked up person having an abortion, they should become a parent? I personally don't see that as a better long-term option. |
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Post by pulmonarymd on Nov 10, 2023 14:54:09 GMT -5
That is exactly the way I see people who elect to have an abortion they are seriously fucked up. So instead of this seriously fucked up person having an abortion, they should become a parent? I personally don't see that as a better long-term option. It is if you don't care about the infant after it is born. If they did care, they would put policies in place t help these families |
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 16:26:44 GMT -5
You really are fucked up, aren't you. That is exactly the way I see people who elect to have an abortion they are seriously fucked up. Curious-have you ever killed an insect? |
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Post by Opti on Nov 10, 2023 18:59:13 GMT -5
1. There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it. 2. There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom. Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. I disagree. Some women have such long and debilitating postpartum depression an abortion could save her and any other children she has. Some women have conditions that will endanger their lives and make carrying a fetus term a scary and possibly deadly enterprise for mom and fetus. I also am against kids carrying to term especially if it is incest or rape. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 10, 2023 19:03:18 GMT -5
no, but i can't remember being a toddler, either. are you advocating infanticide? Nope! My point is does that clump of cells (as scgal calls them) within the womb prior to viability know it is being aborted. The answer is no. i have not make any arguments vis-a-vis pre-viability. nor will i. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 10, 2023 19:05:45 GMT -5
scgal -what is your opinion of these red states (Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky) codifying abortion rights or protecting abortion rights? Would you overule the rights of voters in these states? Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights
Voters in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw wins related to abortion rights Tuesday Abortion rights supporters celebrated wins in four states Tuesday night, including the passage of a measure in Ohio that would add language to the state constitution enshrining the right to reproductive freedom, including abortion. Ohio voters passed the constitutional amendment with 56.6 percent of voters supporting it, with all precincts reporting as of Wednesday morning. Virginia, Pennsylvania and Kentucky also saw some wins related to abortion rights Tuesday. The state elections in Ohio and Virginia in particular attracted national attention, with many predicting the results could be a bellwether for 2024. Ohio’s vote marks the latest time voters have codified abortion rights since the Supreme Court in 2022 overturned Roe v. Wade. The state’s efforts mirror those in California, Vermont and Michigan to codify abortion rights last year. Meanwhile, ballot efforts to restrict abortion were defeated in Montana, Kentucky and Kansas. The last efforts to successfully limit abortion by ballot were constitutional amendments passed in Louisiana in 2020, and in Alabama and West Virginia in 2018 — before the overturning of Roe vs. Wade. While Ohio is the only state to vote directly on abortion access this year, advocates in at least four other states are aiming for similar votes in 2024. Abortion rights supporters are eyeing possible votes in Arizona, Colorado, Florida and Nevada. Rest of article here: Ohioans vote to codify abortion rights Republicans now are suggesting that Ohio and the other states should ignore the vote results, saying things like, "Pure democracies are a bad way to run a country" and, "Direct democracy should not exist!" I guess that is easier than admitting you are on the wrong side of an issue and out-of-step with the majority. Not really American, by any standard, but easier.... pure democracy is a pipe dream. we live in a Republic. there are checks and balances. but the elected work for us, not the other way around. they do OUR bidding, not us theirs. the GOP has it very much backwards these days. perhaps they always have. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 10, 2023 19:06:57 GMT -5
That is exactly the way I see people who elect to have an abortion they are seriously fucked up. Curious-have you ever killed an insect? moving on, have you ever had a hamburger? |
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Post by Opti on Nov 10, 2023 19:13:16 GMT -5
What these fetus worshippers fail to understand is that until birth the fetus is a parasite. It cannot survive without the host. It is not a separate entity, because it is not alive. But that is too difficult a concept for them There are different modes or values of life. Eggs are alive, sperm is alive, but humans were not designed for many of them to become viable human beings. I think human life starts when the soul enters the body which might be noted in the Bible as quickening. Plus when I think of the numbers aspect it seems crazy to grant rights to a fertilized egg which has less than a 50% chance of even making it to 20 weeks. If we take the higher side of fetus mortality from up to week 5 and up to week 20, if we start with 10,000 fertilized eggs we might have about 2000 or less that are still in process to become a baby. 10,000 with a 25% survival rate is 2500 and with a 20% failure rate between week 5 and 20 leaves only 2000. I wouldn't hang my hat on a 20% survival rate from 1 to 20 weeks. It seems crazy, unrealistic and irresponsible. |
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 19:17:05 GMT -5
Curious-have you ever killed an insect? moving on, have you ever had a hamburger? That works too. |
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 19:18:00 GMT -5
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 10, 2023 20:29:07 GMT -5
Can that little clump of cells attend school and print with a pencil in its current state (a clump of cells)? Can that little clump of cells crawl across the floor with its hands and legs in its current state (a clump of cells)? Can that little clump of cells sit in a highchair and eat fruit loops by hand in its current state (a clump of cells)? Just wondering. Life begins at fertilization. It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling. That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. I think that last point is one that should be amplified and clarified in this debate. So the long term goal is to prosecute females who look to or have abortions. Good to know. Would love to hear details on how this plays out. It would clearly be a premeditated act. So qualified for death penalty? Or life without parole? I can see a fair number of others being charged, assisting, aiding and abetting, etc. What about juveniles? I would think 16 year olds could easily be charged as adults. 15? 14? Perhaps. Also picturing the impact on the illegal abortion industry which would be created. Certainly push it deeper into the darker realms of society, totally eliminate any possibility of follow-up care. Much more deadly. Definitely need to fill everyone in on the full agenda instead of trying to fool them with only a part of it. |
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Nov 10, 2023 21:00:01 GMT -5
Life begins at fertilization. It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling. That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. I think that last point is one that should be amplified and clarified in this debate. So the long term goal is to prosecute females who look to or have abortions. Good to know. Would love to hear details on how this plays out. It would clearly be a premeditated act. So qualified for death penalty? Or life without parole? I can see a fair number of others being charged, assisting, aiding and abetting, etc. What about juveniles? I would think 16 year olds could easily be charged as adults. 15? 14? Perhaps. Also picturing the impact on the illegal abortion industry which would be created. Certainly push it deeper into the darker realms of society, totally eliminate any possibility of follow-up care. Much more deadly. Definitely need to fill everyone in on the full agenda instead of trying to fool them with only a part of it. There was news last year like the quote below of charging doctors or the people that drove a woman to an out-of-state location where abortion was still legal. But the woman seeking/paying for the abortion would not be charged. I don't consider abortion murder but to me in the example above, the woman seeking the abortion would be no different than a husband (for example) hiring someone to murder their wife. Murder by contract. Regarding abortion, the woman who sought the abortion or had the abortion is just as guilty as the doctor who performed the abortion or the person who drove them to get an abortion. Is it legal for women to travel out of state for an abortion? |
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 10, 2023 21:04:05 GMT -5
I am very pro-abortion. I am super excited that voters in states are putting in laws and constitutional amendments to preserve women’s rights.
That said - we have to be careful about people voting to decide rights. If voting was the only determination - black people wouldn’t have the right to vote, our schools would be segregated and plenty of other totally racists policies would be okay.
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 10, 2023 21:20:02 GMT -5
I think that last point is one that should be amplified and clarified in this debate. So the long term goal is to prosecute females who look to or have abortions. Good to know. Would love to hear details on how this plays out. It would clearly be a premeditated act. So qualified for death penalty? Or life without parole? I can see a fair number of others being charged, assisting, aiding and abetting, etc. What about juveniles? I would think 16 year olds could easily be charged as adults. 15? 14? Perhaps. Also picturing the impact on the illegal abortion industry which would be created. Certainly push it deeper into the darker realms of society, totally eliminate any possibility of follow-up care. Much more deadly. Definitely need to fill everyone in on the full agenda instead of trying to fool them with only a part of it. There was news last year like the quote below of charging doctors or the people that drove a woman to an out-of-state location where abortion was still legal. But the woman seeking/paying for the abortion would not be charged. I don't consider abortion murder but to me in the example above, the woman seeking the abortion would be no different than a husband (for example) hiring someone to murder their wife. Murder by contract. Regarding abortion, the woman who sought the abortion or had the abortion is just as guilty as the doctor who performed the abortion or the person who drove them to get an abortion. Is it legal for women to travel out of state for an abortion? To hold accountable and charge the woman would be acknowledging that females are capable of making a rational decision. Infantilizing them after the fact is a way to justify doing it to them before the fact. |
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Post by NastyWoman on Nov 10, 2023 22:17:27 GMT -5
I am very pro-abortion. I am super excited that voters in states are putting in laws and constitutional amendments to preserve women’s rights. That said - we have to be careful about people voting to decide rights. If voting was the only determination - black people wouldn’t have the right to vote, our schools would be segregated and plenty of other totally racists policies would be okay. I have a very slightly different position: I am very pro choice whether that choice involves an abortion or not. One of the many, many problems I have with forcing a woman to carry a child is that, despite this being a first world country with supposedly the best healthcare in the world, the US has an atrocious record on infant and maternal health. So if having these babies is so important to these so-called "pro-lifers" why are they not up on the barricades demanding, and funding, that we become the safest place in the world to have a baby? Now to be fair, if that happened (fat chance) it would still not change my position that this is a choice to be made by the woman and the woman only. She may need a doctor to talk to and will need one to terminate that pregnancy but the choice should be hers and hers alone. |
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Post by tbop77 on Nov 11, 2023 10:12:58 GMT -5
I was surprised to hear Haley during the debate: On Wednesday, Haley delivered a similar line on abortion during the third GOP primary debate, declaring that she remains personally opposed but does not “judge anyone for being pro-choice.”
www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/the-gop-s-internal-war-over-how-to-message-abortion-policy-is-shifting/ar-AA1jJ77HIsn't that they way America should be? Meanwhile: “We’re out here to send a message not only to Trump, but to the whole GOP party that we want our candidates to be unapologetically and fundamentally pro-life,” said Mary-Logan Miske, a campus organizer with Students for Life. Over the past year, Trump had failed that test, in her view. “He blamed pro-lifers for the loss of our midterms. He said that this issue, [abortion], isn’t a federal issue. And his latest thing was he basically said that DeSantis passing a heartbeat bill was a terrible, terrible thing.” www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/anti-abortion-activists-protest-donald-trump-rally-florida-1234873608/Sucks when you get what you want but it doesn't win elections.  |
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scgal
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Post by scgal on Nov 11, 2023 10:36:33 GMT -5
Curious-have you ever killed an insect? moving on, have you ever had a hamburger? I eat meat, shot and killed animals for food, killed insects....on and on and on it doesn't mean anything to the subject actually this subject should be carried back to the abortion thread. |
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 11, 2023 12:43:53 GMT -5
moving on, have you ever had a hamburger? I eat meat, shot and killed animals for food, killed insects.... on and on and on it doesn't mean anything to the subject actually this subject should be carried back to the abortion thread. i disagree. it means a great deal if you care about developmental biology. there is certainly no consciousness at fertilization. even the most zealous Christian doesn't believe that. otherwise, all of the miscarriages, etc would get funerals and court hearings. literally nobody wants that for women that have that misfortune. so, yeah. it matters. just not to you. and that is ok with me. but you need to at least recognize that it is a consideration for OTHERS if you care about this debate. |
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