THIS dumbass is our new speaker?

[tallguy]

Nov 9, 2023 20:34:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 6, 2023 23:50:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Define medically necessary.

Do women have to be dying, or just sick? If the pregnancy isn’t viable, but the mother isn’t sick yet - can she have an abortion? If the likelihood that the mother will be in medical danger, can she abort before she is sick?

What about women who are unstable and suicidal? Or women who are in domestic violence situations and a pregnancy will anger her abuser? Do we care about their lives?

That should be left to a dr to determine. As long as a woman cannot go into a office or clinic and get an abortion just because she wants one I'm good. What I see that no one here does is that little clump of cells is a baby, I don't care what anyone else believes or says that is how I see it. My hope and wish is one day the SC will see it the same way. 

Means nothing.  The Supreme court can be wrong just like anyone else.  They have been.  Many, MANY times, and especially with ideologues on the bench.  As they have now.

[tallguy]

Nov 9, 2023 20:48:00 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

I just want to say that I hope that all of the arguments with scgal about abortion can be contained in this thread. 

It has become tiresome that most threads scgal posts in, have devolved into arguments about either gun rights or issues regarding abortion, even when neither subject was the original point of discussion. 

That is all I wanted to say.

ETA: apparently I am a dumbass too, because I thought I was making this post on the thread about abortion being a political issue. 

No, this is where the argument is....   

[scgal]

Nov 9, 2023 20:54:17 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 9, 2023 20:34:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

That should be left to a dr to determine. As long as a woman cannot go into a office or clinic and get an abortion just because she wants one I'm good. What I see that no one here does is that little clump of cells is a baby, I don't care what anyone else believes or says that is how I see it. My hope and wish is one day the SC will see it the same way. 

Means nothing.  The Supreme court can be wrong just like anyone else.  They have been.  Many, MANY times, and especially with ideologues on the bench.  As they have now.

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 20:54:17 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Means nothing.  The Supreme court can be wrong just like anyone else.  They have been.  Many, MANY times, and especially with ideologues on the bench.  As they have now.

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

Do you have an answer for a situation like countrygirl’s. Other than sucks to be you. Because if you don’t, you are nothing but a heartless conservative who wishes yo impose your beliefs on someone else, consequences be damned, so long S it doesn’t affect you.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 9, 2023 20:34:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 6, 2023 23:50:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Define medically necessary.

Do women have to be dying, or just sick? If the pregnancy isn’t viable, but the mother isn’t sick yet - can she have an abortion? If the likelihood that the mother will be in medical danger, can she abort before she is sick?

What about women who are unstable and suicidal? Or women who are in domestic violence situations and a pregnancy will anger her abuser? Do we care about their lives?

That should be left to a dr to determine. As long as a woman cannot go into a office or clinic and get an abortion just because she wants one I'm good. What I see that no one here does is that little clump of cells is a baby, I don't care what anyone else believes or says that is how I see it. My hope and wish is one day the SC will see it the same way. 

Can that little clump of cells attend school and print with a pencil in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells crawl across the floor with its hands and legs in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells sit in a highchair and eat fruit loops by hand in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Just wondering.

[Tennesseer]

Poll: 

Question #1:  How many of you remember being in your mother's womb.

Question #2:  How many of you remember exiting your mother's womb.

Question#3:  How many of you remember your first month outside your mother's womb.

[Tennesseer]

I don't remember anything until about two years outside my mother's womb.

[tallguy]

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 20:54:17 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Means nothing.  The Supreme court can be wrong just like anyone else.  They have been.  Many, MANY times, and especially with ideologues on the bench.  As they have now.

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

[pulmonarymd]

What these fetus worshippers fail to understand is that until birth the fetus is a parasite. It cannot survive without the host. It is not a separate entity, because it is not alive. But that is too difficult a concept for them

[djAdvocate]

Nov 9, 2023 21:51:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I don't remember anything until about two years outside my mother's womb.

me neither.

bioethicists have argued about human consciousness.  none of them put it prior to mid-term.  which, as i have mentioned before, is about the beginning of viability, as well.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

i am in favor of aborting Trump.  does that count?

[toomuchreality]

Nov 9, 2023 22:32:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

i am in favor of aborting Trump.  does that count?

Me too! He is cruel and unusual punishment!

[djAdvocate]

Nov 9, 2023 22:34:22 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

Nov 9, 2023 22:32:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am in favor of aborting Trump.  does that count?

Me too! He is cruel and unusual punishment!

he is cancer.  nobody wants cancer.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 9, 2023 22:31:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:51:43 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I don't remember anything until about two years outside my mother's womb.

me neither.

bioethicists have argued about human consciousness.  none of them put it prior to mid-term.  which, as i have mentioned before, is about the beginning of viability, as well.

Bioethicists only have an opinion. No facts.

[tallguy]

Nov 9, 2023 23:26:14 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 9, 2023 22:31:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

me neither.

bioethicists have argued about human consciousness.  none of them put it prior to mid-term.  which, as i have mentioned before, is about the beginning of viability, as well.

Bioethicists only have an opinion. No facts.

Same with the anti-abortion side.  

[djAdvocate]

Nov 9, 2023 23:26:14 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 9, 2023 22:31:39 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

me neither.

bioethicists have argued about human consciousness.  none of them put it prior to mid-term.  which, as i have mentioned before, is about the beginning of viability, as well.

Bioethicists only have an opinion. No facts.

viability is not an opinion.  it is a fact.

not too keen on your absolute, there, either. most people don't ONLY have opinions.  including you.  

[Opti]

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 20:54:17 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Means nothing.  The Supreme court can be wrong just like anyone else.  They have been.  Many, MANY times, and especially with ideologues on the bench.  As they have now.

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

But they aren't common sense conservatives. They are wishful thinkers who want to force their view on other families. I did not save the urls from my research earlier today, but depending on what studies you look at, pregnancy loss varies from 11 to 22%. 1 out of 10 or 2 out of 10 is not an insignificant number. This is for week 5 to week 20.

Prior to 5 weeks it is believed that 50 to 75% are not viable. This can go unnoticed or not shared as it is an early miscarriage and hopefully not often is medical intervention needed.

[Opti]

Nov 10, 2023 0:41:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 9, 2023 23:26:14 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Bioethicists only have an opinion. No facts.

viability is not an opinion.  it is a fact.

not too keen on your absolute, there, either. most people don't ONLY have opinions.  including you.  

And for viability I want the odds over  50/50 to legislate anything. Making the law based on a crapshoot viability time is irresponsible and cruel.

[scgal]

Nov 9, 2023 21:04:48 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

Do you have an answer for a situation like countrygirl’s. Other than sucks to be you. Because if you don’t, you are nothing but a heartless conservative who wishes yo impose your beliefs on someone else, consequences be damned, so long S it doesn’t affect you.

Sure I do... She did the right thing. 

[scgal]

Nov 9, 2023 21:34:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 9, 2023 20:34:13 GMT -5 scgal said:

That should be left to a dr to determine. As long as a woman cannot go into a office or clinic and get an abortion just because she wants one I'm good. What I see that no one here does is that little clump of cells is a baby, I don't care what anyone else believes or says that is how I see it. My hope and wish is one day the SC will see it the same way. 

Can that little clump of cells attend school and print with a pencil in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells crawl across the floor with its hands and legs in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells sit in a highchair and eat fruit loops by hand in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Just wondering.

Life begins at fertilization.
It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling.
That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. 

[scgal]

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Means everything, take Roe for example pro abortionist were happy when it was in effect. Now Anti abortionist are happy when is was overturned. I love how the bench is a few liberals but mostly common sense conservatives. 

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. 

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 10, 2023 7:48:01 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:04:48 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Do you have an answer for a situation like countrygirl’s. Other than sucks to be you. Because if you don’t, you are nothing but a heartless conservative who wishes yo impose your beliefs on someone else, consequences be damned, so long S it doesn’t affect you.

Sure I do... She did the right thing. 

Not what I asked. Do you have anything other than I am glad you didn’t have an abortion? She just has to suffer the consequences of having that child? And you willing to put you money where your mouth is? Or do these danio have to bear the burden on their own, regardless of the cost? Conservatives like yo claim they are pro family, but the number of families that fall apart in the circumstances that counttygsl laid out is substantial, in part because of the needs of the child sucking up all the resources. But again, since you aren’t affected, all you will say is sucks to be you

[tallguy]

Nov 10, 2023 7:55:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. 

You may have some amorphous definition of "medically necessary" even if you are unable to properly explain it.  A lot of lawmakers don't, and do not allow for even that exception.  THAT can or does cost women their lives in cases.  And do you honestly think that forcing every woman to carry a pregnancy to term, regardless of the effects on her health, her current family, her mental state, or whatever else is GOOD for women's health?  Regardless of her ability to care for a child?  Or her willingness to care for a child?  Or whether she became pregnant as the result of a rape at nine or ten years old as in a particularly newsworthy recent case in Ohio?  To say nothing about the violation of her rights and bodily autonomy.  

You have the right to hold any belief you choose.  You have the right to act in accordance with that belief...for yourself (and given that you do not adversely impact the rights of others.)  You do NOT have the right to impose that belief onto others.  Your belief CANNOT be legitimately used to infringe on the rights of others.  It really is that simple, and no level of dedication to your belief will change that.  

[tallguy]

Nov 10, 2023 7:55:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. 

(Separating this from my previous response in case it ends up being deleted.)

I well know that you will not accept my previous response.  The truth is, I don't even know if I answered you properly, because I cannot figure out what you were trying to say.  This would be a lot more interesting and productive argument to have if you were able to both hold a logically-defensible position and express yourself well enough to actually have the discussion.  One wishes that your posts could be as sensible as they are strident, but I (and I am sure we) have learned not to expect much from the terminally unbalanced.  

[moon/Laura]

Nov 6, 2023 19:43:11 GMT -5 moon/Laura said:

Nov 5, 2023 20:40:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

It is not a religious thing for me. I don't fall into that category. I'm not imposing my will at all. There are all sorts of laws for a persons life banning elective non medical necessary abortion should be one of them. 

Please give a comparable example. Or any example. Bad enough that many doctors won't sterilize a woman of child-bearing age when the want it because "what if you get married someday and your husband wants children"? I don't GAF *what* he wants! Aside from the fact that I wouldn't marry someone who didn't feel the same way, it's MY body, MY choice. Same with abortion.

scgal, I'm waiting for your example(s) that I asked for in my post above.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 10, 2023 3:54:41 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 10, 2023 0:41:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

viability is not an opinion.  it is a fact.

not too keen on your absolute, there, either. most people don't ONLY have opinions.  including you.  

And for viability I want the odds over  50/50 to legislate anything. Making the law based on a crapshoot viability time is irresponsible and cruel.

i was thinking about this last night.  
however, we are not talking about saving the child, right?
in other words, you want the odds of survival to be NIL, not 50%.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 10, 2023 7:52:22 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:34:06 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Can that little clump of cells attend school and print with a pencil in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells crawl across the floor with its hands and legs in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Can that little clump of cells sit in a highchair and eat fruit loops by hand in its current state (a clump of cells)?

Just wondering.

Life begins at fertilization.
It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling.
That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. 

is a miscarriage murder?

[djAdvocate]

Nov 10, 2023 7:55:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 9, 2023 21:55:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

1.  There is really no such thing as "pro abortionist" as you put it.
2.  There is little to no common sense in the conservative realm any more. There used to be, decades ago, but it has been banished from the kingdom.

Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. 

sure it does.  but it is rarely viewed that way.

women are at greater risk from pregnancy than abortion.  that is a fact.

you know that, right?

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 10, 2023 11:24:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 10, 2023 7:55:45 GMT -5 scgal said:

Then what is it? It's not pro womens health. Womens health has nothing to do with elective abortion. 

sure it does.  but it is rarely viewed that way.

women are at greater risk from pregnancy than abortion.  that is a fact.

you know that, right?

A fact anti-abortion advocates are unwilling or unable to comprehend

[tallguy]

Nov 10, 2023 11:21:22 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 10, 2023 7:52:22 GMT -5 scgal said:

Life begins at fertilization.
It doesn't matter if you can crawl accross the floor, or what you remember that is just stupid rambling.
That life (if those of us who believe this way) have our way one day there will be a law stating that elective abortion is murder. Just the same as if you murdered your "born"child. 

is a miscarriage murder?

Hope not, since I would bet the majority of miscarriages are wanted pregnancies.  That is after the period when a sizable percentage of fertilized ova spontaneously abort, regardless of whether the woman wants a child or not.

On further thought, they would probably classify miscarriage as involuntary manslaughter.  And don't bet against them doing the same with spontaneously aborted ova if they can find a way to track it.