THIS dumbass is our new speaker?

[Opti]

Nov 5, 2023 20:36:41 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 3, 2023 12:31:05 GMT -5 dondubble said:

I would guess most sentient beings would disagree. But this is my take. You are opposed to abortion so support forced birth. But NOT pro-life once the baby is born. No surprise as I have seen your team opposed to those initiatives that aid the health and well being of children. So no Child Tax Credit to keep them out of poverty. Cutbacks in SNAP and school lunch programs. 14 million children have food insecurity. The typical “not pro-life” stance of you and your party.

Not at all. I'm in favor of alot of state benefits for children, especially for health and well being. You seem to be very ill informed about non pro-life.

I think you are ill-informed about what actual forced birth politicians and religious leaders actually do and campaign for. It is nice that you are for some of these benefits, however, the actual need will go up drastically if you and other forced birthers got their way.

[pulmonarymd]

I wouldn’t be so sure that she really supports children post-birth. She hasn’t told us what she believes is acceptable to “let” them have.

Is she in favor of expanding Medicaid to cover these kids? Food stamps/ WIC? How about child care, because you know she supports work requirements. Housing? Does she believe in public education, and is willing to pay taxes for it? She does already believe we are “taxed too much” so don’t hold you breath waiting to hear what she will actually support do that these children do not have to live in poverty. I suspect you will be underwhelmed.

[scgal]

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

[tallguy]

Nov 6, 2023 9:48:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

But again, your personal belief, or my personal belief, or ANYBODY'S personal belief can NEVER be a sole and legitimate justification for law in a pluralized society.  Many people believe otherwise, and medical science cannot answer one way or the other.  Your personal belief is no more valid than anyone else's, and cannot be used to restrict the freedoms of another.  That should be very simple to understand.  And if you want to try and argue what the majority of people believe, the majority do not agree with you.  In fact, a very strong majority disagree with you, which is why abortion rights have been supported in every state election since Roe was overthrown.  Yes, even in conservative states.  And finally, again, a free society demands that abortion rights be accessible.  There is NO getting around that.  But unfortunately, like most conservatives today, you apparently do not believe in a free society.  Because this is a free society, you can choose to live within whatever limits you choose, and nobody will care.  What you CANNOT do, though, is impose YOUR limits on anyone else.

[countrygirl2]

Don't applaud me. I had to quit work early and my SS is screwed. Along with DD I have had to help care for my mom for years, was the main reason I had to quit work, a mom and DD to care for. Than my MIL came along and we spent 10 years dealing with her Alzheimers. What a life, had a bit of fun but not much along the way. Thankfully my husband got a job that for 15 years paid him extremely well. But in those 15 years he worked all over the world leaving me to care for all of this. The moms caring part you know will end eventually. But I am still not finished with the DD part and likely won't be at my death.

If this is the life you think people want you are crazy. And you can't believe the way these kids are cared for. I had to have DD in a group home situation 2 different times for her behavior, Williams can have real issues. Most of the adults have no teeth, cheaper to pull than fix. The clothing they had came from yard sales. We felt so bad one time hubs and I took all the kids in the group home and bought them shoes that actually fit. Yes volunteers gave them shoes but they didn't fit. They gave DD a new pair of 8's. She wears 8 1/2 XXwide, try to find those off the shelf. And it goes on and one. I even bought them some towels. Most of the young people there had nothing. I never saw one visitor other than me in the year she was there so how well do you think it was monitored.

And we want to sit a trust up for her, we have but are not going to put the amount in it we were. In talking to the rep payee stand ins, we find that the state will find a way to drain all that money. You have no idea the nightmare for these human beings. I could go on and on.

We will do what we can long as we can and still she is going to suffer. I figure with her health issues she won't last long after I die.  And her life has been nothing but suffering and pain. Every birther should be MADE to take one of these babies and dedicate their life to them. You don't see that just make them be born and to hell with the rest.

There are insufficient homes now, insufficient money, insufficient care givers. Education that is not good for them or others. Only a few will benefit from the mainstreaming laws, everyone else and the kids will suffer. And you will find that people think they are cute when kids and are appalled by them as they grow up with all their issues. Makes for a lonely life.

The whole thing is a nightmare for everyone concerned, unless you are truly in the middle of it you have no idea.

I had to implement this slogan into my life to maintain my sanity. It's "you can be as happy as you want to be". And each time I get really down and depressed, I pull this saying back up and pull it around me.

Yes, I will go on long as I can but I will advise anyone to get an abortion if they can and I have and they did. The diagnosis these people had for the babies was devastating, much worse than mine. They saved their lives and the futures of their kids. Don't take this choice away from families, they need this. Oh and in the end most husbands abandon the wives and those children as they can't handle it. Mine has not, 55 years together but we are the rarity.  Enough said Just understand abortion is needed more than ever.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 6, 2023 10:18:28 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Don't applaud me. I had to quit work early and my SS is screwed. Along with DD I have had to help care for my mom for years, was the main reason I had to quit work, a mom and DD to care for. Than my MIL came along and we spent 10 years dealing with her Alzheimers. What a life, had a bit of fun but not much along the way. Thankfully my husband got a job that for 15 years paid him extremely well. But in those 15 years he worked all over the world leaving me to care for all of this. The moms caring part you know will end eventually. But I am still not finished with the DD part and likely won't be at my death.

If this is the life you think people want you are crazy. And you can't believe the way these kids are cared for. I had to have DD in a group home situation 2 different times for her behavior, Williams can have real issues. Most of the adults have no teeth, cheaper to pull than fix. The clothing they had came from yard sales. We felt so bad one time hubs and I took all the kids in the group home and bought them shoes that actually fit. Yes volunteers gave them shoes but they didn't fit. They gave DD a new pair of 8's. She wears 8 1/2 XXwide, try to find those off the shelf. And it goes on and one. I even bought them some towels. Most of the young people there had nothing. I never saw one visitor other than me in the year she was there so how well do you think it was monitored.

And we want to sit a trust up for her, we have but are not going to put the amount in it we were. In talking to the rep payee stand ins, we find that the state will find a way to drain all that money. You have no idea the nightmare for these human beings. I could go on and on.

We will do what we can long as we can and still she is going to suffer. I figure with her health issues she won't last long after I die.  And her life has been nothing but suffering and pain. Every birther should be MADE to take one of these babies and dedicate their life to them. You don't see that just make them be born and to hell with the rest.

There are insufficient homes now, insufficient money, insufficient care givers. Education that is not good for them or others. Only a few will benefit from the mainstreaming laws, everyone else and the kids will suffer. And you will find that people think they are cute when kids and are appalled by them as they grow up with all their issues. Makes for a lonely life.

The whole thing is a nightmare for everyone concerned, unless you are truly in the middle of it you have no idea.

I had to implement this slogan into my life to maintain my sanity. It's "you can be as happy as you want to be". And each time I get really down and depressed, I pull this saying back up and pull it around me.

Yes, I will go on long as I can but I will advise anyone to get an abortion if they can and I have and they did. The diagnosis these people had for the babies was devastating, much worse than mine. They saved their lives and the futures of their kids. Don't take this choice away from families, they need this. Oh and in the end most husbands abandon the wives and those children as they can't handle it. Mine has not, 55 years together but we are the rarity.  Enough said Just understand abortion is needed more than ever.

This is the reality that people like scgal refuse to acknowledge. You put it in a way those of us who have not had to do this cannot do. They refuse to acknowledge the suffering that goes into their high and mighty morality, and the do not care about the consequences. and you didn’t even mention what it does to your other children. The neglect(unintentional) that occurs, because you have only so many hours in the day and limited resources. BUT THEY DO NOT CARE!

If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one. Someone else’s abortion in some far away state has no impact on your life. Otherwise, put your money where you mouth is and pay the taxes necessary to support these families. But republicans don’t want to do that. So they remain immoral hypocrites but feel they are superior to us who understand why the option of abortion is necessary, while recognizing the downside to its legality

[Tennesseer]

Abortion debate has dominated this election year. Here are Tuesday's races to watch

WASHINGTON (AP) — The most-watched races in Tuesday’s off-year general election have all been dominated by the ongoing debate over abortion rights.

From a reelection bid for governor in Kentucky to a statewide ballot measure in Ohio to state legislative elections in Virginia, access to abortion has been a frequent topic in campaign debates and advertising, as it has since the U.S. Supreme Court issued its decision in June last year overturning Roe vs. Wade.

Here's a look at three major races and how abortion has shaped each contest.

Kentucky governor

Democratic Gov. Andy Beshear seeks a second term in a heavily Republican state Donald Trump carried twice. The GOP nominee is Daniel Cameron, who succeeded Beshear as state attorney general.

Beshear, the son of former two-term Democratic Gov. Steve Beshear, was first elected in 2019 when he defeated GOP incumbent Matt Bevin by less than half a percentage point. Cameron is a former aide to U.S. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and endorsed by Trump. If elected, he would become the first Black Republican governor since Reconstruction.

Beshear has called the state’s restrictive abortion law “extremist” for not allowing exceptions in cases of rape and incest. He also vetoed a proposal banning abortions after 15 weeks. Cameron says he supports the state law and that as governor he would sign a bill amending it to allow rape and incest exceptions. But at times he has had difficulty clarifying what exceptions he favors.

Ohio constitutional amendment on abortion

Ohio voters will decide whether to amend the state Constitution to protect access to abortion services.

The measure would establish the right to “make and carry out one’s own reproductive decisions” on matters including abortion, contraception and fertility treatment. It would also allow for abortions to be banned once it has been established that the fetus can survive outside of the womb, unless a physician determines that continuing with the pregnancy would endanger the patient’s “life or health.”

In August, voters rejected a measure that would have made it more difficult to approve Tuesday’s abortion proposal. That contest was seen as a proxy fight on reproductive rights and received national attention.

Rest of article Abortion debate has dominated this election year. Here are Tuesday's races to watchhere:

[toomuchreality]

Why is it preferred that women in bad situations seek out illegal abortions, to deal with their bad situation, instead of allowing them access to legal, proper care (abortions)? I just don't understand that.

How many people who believe as she does, would change their minds, if they were subject to the situations, people who have been in these situations are in?

I see no open mindedness, empathy, or care, for anyone but themselves, in these people.

I find that truly unfortunate and sad.

Holier than thou, much?

You can believe any way you want to believe. I'm good with that. But when you force your beliefs on everyone else, without consideration for them, or their lives, I have an issue with that.

[pulmonarymd]

Don’t you understand. Other people’s abortions are wrong. MY abortion is a tough but correct decision because of my specific and difficult situation. It is why we see all those mother-daughter weekends in NYC. Can’t have little Jane’s life ruined because she got “knocked up”. Her future is too bright

ETA: it is also the same reason that we saw so many 8lb 7 month babies born in the “good old days”, after quickly thrown together weds

[toomuchreality]

Nov 6, 2023 15:46:34 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Don’t you understand. Other people’s abortions are wrong. MY abortion is a tough but correct decision because of my specific and difficult situation. It is why we see all those mother-daughter weekends in NYC. Can’t have little Jane’s life ruined because she got “knocked up”. Her future is too bright

ETA: it is also the same reason that we saw so many 8lb 7 month babies born in the “good old days”, after quickly thrown together weds

My bad. (At least I can admit it! 🙄)

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Nov 6, 2023 15:29:14 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

Why is it preferred that women in bad situations seek out illegal abortions, to deal with their bad situation, instead of allowing them access to legal, proper care (abortions)? I just don't understand that.

How many people who believe as she does, would change their minds, if they were subject to the situations, people who have been in these situations are in?

I see no open mindedness, empathy, or care, for anyone but themselves, in these people.

I find that truly unfortunate and sad.

Holier than thou, much?

You can believe any way you want to believe. I'm good with that. But when you force your beliefs on everyone else, without consideration for them, or their lives, I have an issue with that.

The solution is as they preach don't have sex unless you are married.  Period.  If a woman would just keep her damn legs closed there wouldn't be a need for abortion because all babies would be born in loving heterosexual Christian white families where men work and women know their place.

In case you were wondering what this is really all about.

What is interesting is if you read history the religious right used to be all for abortion.  It was considered a good way to keep minorities and poor people from having more babies.  Then to encourage WASP couples to settle down and have more babies things like the mortgage tax deduction were created.  It was hoped that by giving perks for pursuing the American dream which was much more achievable for certain classes of people than others that white people would be able to out populate all those other people.

I guess we've gone the other direction and are hoping with banning abortion and potentially going after birth control it will force all those white women to stay married and have more babies instead.  And the other babies can be adopted by nice heterosexual white couples because we sure as hell aren't going to support those other mothers who should have known better than to have sex.  It's only right to take those babies and give them a proper home.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 6, 2023 15:56:58 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

Nov 6, 2023 15:46:34 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Don’t you understand. Other people’s abortions are wrong. MY abortion is a tough but correct decision because of my specific and difficult situation. It is why we see all those mother-daughter weekends in NYC. Can’t have little Jane’s life ruined because she got “knocked up”. Her future is too bright

ETA: it is also the same reason that we saw so many 8lb 7 month babies born in the “good old days”, after quickly thrown together weds

My bad. (At least I can admit it! 🙄)

People haven’t changed. You belong to a long line of “fallen” women. If people were are virtuous as they claim there wouldn’t be out of wedlock births, “bastard” children, or venereal diseases. The more things change.

You would be surprised how many “pillars of society” have, for lack of a better term, “ bad habits”. It is why I have a hard time with all the moralizing the religious right does

[bean29]

Yeah, and they are all about cutting the Budget.  Reducing SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Taxes on Rich People.  But as Drama has pointed out over and over again, we have a pending crisis with the Baby Boomers hitting their senior years that our current system is not set up to handle.  I took my Mom to church and then to dinner again on Saturday.  She got in the car, and she had a note written down that she needed TP.  I told her we would pick it up between church and dinner.  After Church, I stopped at the drugstore for a bow, and told Mom I would get her TP.  She said Do I need TP?  Yes Mom, you told me you do.  Go in store, buy two bows, a GC, and the TP.  Come out, give it to her, she says "Do I need TP?".  Yes Mom you do.  How much do I owe you.  Well it was about $10, but don't worry about it.  She hands me $20.  Next question, How much do I owe you?  After dinner, I went into her house to make sure the TP made it into the bathroom - She again asks "Oh, Do I need TP?".  

We all know many seniors are not going to have anyone to help them navigate life, and it would be so, so easy for someone to tell someone like my Mom repeatedly that they had not paid for something.  I worry about this a lot.  Really wish I was closer to 65 so I could retire and spend more time with my Mom, possibly have her live with us.  I am just going to be 60 in January. DH told me to tell my SIL to watch her, but I just cannot imagine suggesting to someone else that they should caretake for someone that is not their parent.  My SIL might do it, she is a wonderful person, but she is babysitting for her Grandchildren, and she also volunteers at the HS one or two days a week and takes care of the babies that teen students have.  They have a daycare right in the HS to care for the children of teen parents. Somehow I got my SS statement in the mail, and even if I work until 70 my projected SS earnings are laughably low.  We have savings, and rentals, but still don't think we have enough.  Immagine if you are one of the people that has nothing saved.  Sadly, I think those that have next to nothing saved are the same ones eating up the GOP's those illegal immigrates are using up the resources that you could be using.  DH is always like, what resources/benefits do they think illegal immigrants are getting?

I heard the other day that the GOP wants to make it so if you defrauded the government of $250,000 or more in taxes they can not go after you.  I even think they might have said in a single year.  I was like "how many people owe that kind of $$ in taxes and feel like they can get away with underreporting their income to the tune of a $250,000 tax obligation?"  But, there are all kinds of people that get at least partial cash income in tips or selling stuff on E-bay, Poshmark or FB Market place or running a side gig that keep crying on FB about gov't waning to eliminate cash so that they can control the money supply and know how much you really earn.  Imho, my income is all on the record, so they can just bring it.  I hate handling cash anyways. eta. (It is also like even though they say things like they are hiring IRS employees to go after people that earn over $250,000, these little people think they are going to go after them.).  

One of the stockholders from my company made the argument that the rich people can afford to hire high powered expensive legal and accounting help, so they will not be the ones the new tax personnel will go after.  Maybe that is true, but I hope some of they would go after some of these arrogant a holes that think they can do anything they want and get away with it.  At the rate we are going we are going to have a free for all with everyone competing to pay the least amount of taxes on the greatest amount of income.  

To illustrate.  A hair dresser reported AGI of 36,800 which resulted in $0.00 tax due.  If she under reported tips by 10,000 she would only owe about $1,200 more.  Hardly worth the time of an IRS agent.

If a small business owner reported AGI of  $583,375 tax bracket is 35% and taxes are 52,832. and any amount under reported would be taxed at 37%.  so, if they underreported income by $100,000, and IRS could potentially net $37,000. The place where their time will be justified is going after the ones with the larger $$.  Boss is arguing that they are going to go after Middle Class and Upper Middle Class as they have $$ but not enough to hire really good representation that would tie the IRS agents up in court.  Idk.  We can't have a government system that depends on the middle class carrying the weight of both the upper and the middle class, but that seems to be what the GOP is going for.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 6, 2023 16:16:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nov 6, 2023 15:56:58 GMT -5 toomuchreality said:

My bad. (At least I can admit it! 🙄)

People haven’t changed. You belong to a long line of “fallen” women. If people were are virtuous as they claim there wouldn’t be out of wedlock births, “bastard” children, or venereal diseases. The more things change.

You would be surprised how many “pillars of society” have, for lack of a better term, “ bad habits”. It is why I have a hard time with all the moralizing the religious right does

I would love to know how many abortions Trump has funded over the years.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 6, 2023 17:03:29 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 6, 2023 16:16:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

People haven’t changed. You belong to a long line of “fallen” women. If people were are virtuous as they claim there wouldn’t be out of wedlock births, “bastard” children, or venereal diseases. The more things change.

You would be surprised how many “pillars of society” have, for lack of a better term, “ bad habits”. It is why I have a hard time with all the moralizing the religious right does

I would love to know how many abortions Trump has funded over the years.

I know Mary Anne MacLeod Trump should have had at least one.

[scgal]

Nov 6, 2023 10:05:39 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 6, 2023 9:48:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

But again, your personal belief, or my personal belief, or ANYBODY'S personal belief can NEVER be a sole and legitimate justification for law in a pluralized society.  Many people believe otherwise, and medical science cannot answer one way or the other.  Your personal belief is no more valid than anyone else's, and cannot be used to restrict the freedoms of another.  That should be very simple to understand.  And if you want to try and argue what the majority of people believe, the majority do not agree with you.  In fact, a very strong majority disagree with you, which is why abortion rights have been supported in every state election since Roe was overthrown.  Yes, even in conservative states.  And finally, again, a free society demands that abortion rights be accessible.  There is NO getting around that.  But unfortunately, like most conservatives today, you apparently do not believe in a free society.  Because this is a free society, you can choose to live within whatever limits you choose, and nobody will care.  What you CANNOT do, though, is impose YOUR limits on anyone else.

So why get your knickers in a bunch for what I believe? Am I suppossed to just say oh well the majority wants this so I will see it their way? Is that a free society? I said before if there cannot be a ban then it is better left to the states. That would be a fair, each state decides what they want.

[billisonboard]

Nov 6, 2023 19:18:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 6, 2023 10:05:39 GMT -5 tallguy said:

But again, your personal belief, or my personal belief, or ANYBODY'S personal belief can NEVER be a sole and legitimate justification for law in a pluralized society.  Many people believe otherwise, and medical science cannot answer one way or the other.  Your personal belief is no more valid than anyone else's, and cannot be used to restrict the freedoms of another.  That should be very simple to understand.  And if you want to try and argue what the majority of people believe, the majority do not agree with you.  In fact, a very strong majority disagree with you, which is why abortion rights have been supported in every state election since Roe was overthrown.  Yes, even in conservative states.  And finally, again, a free society demands that abortion rights be accessible.  There is NO getting around that.  But unfortunately, like most conservatives today, you apparently do not believe in a free society.  Because this is a free society, you can choose to live within whatever limits you choose, and nobody will care.  What you CANNOT do, though, is impose YOUR limits on anyone else.

So why get your knickers in a bunch for what I believe? Am I suppossed to just say oh well the majority wants this so I will see it their way? Is that a free society? I said before if there cannot be a ban then it is better left to the states. That would be a fair, each state decides what they want.

Why a state government decision? Why not a county decision? Or a city based decision?

[moon/Laura]

Nov 5, 2023 20:40:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 3, 2023 14:35:50 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

This is what I don't get.  If you think it's a sin don't get one.  Seems simple enough.     God is going to sort it all out right? 

It is not a religious thing for me. I don't fall into that category. I'm not imposing my will at all. There are all sorts of laws for a persons life banning elective non medical necessary abortion should be one of them. 

Please give a comparable example. Or any example. Bad enough that many doctors won't sterilize a woman of child-bearing age when the want it because "what if you get married someday and your husband wants children"? I don't GAF *what* he wants! Aside from the fact that I wouldn't marry someone who didn't feel the same way, it's MY body, MY choice. Same with abortion.

[djAdvocate]

let's just rename the US the Christian Republic of the United States and Territories.  no need for a constitution when you got a Bible.

[Opti]

Nov 6, 2023 19:50:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

let's just rename the US the Christian Republic of the United States and Territories.  no need for a constitution when you got a Bible.

No. Fake Christians can create their own country if they must, but I don't think we should concede our country to them. 

[tallguy]

Nov 6, 2023 19:18:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 6, 2023 10:05:39 GMT -5 tallguy said:

But again, your personal belief, or my personal belief, or ANYBODY'S personal belief can NEVER be a sole and legitimate justification for law in a pluralized society.  Many people believe otherwise, and medical science cannot answer one way or the other.  Your personal belief is no more valid than anyone else's, and cannot be used to restrict the freedoms of another.  That should be very simple to understand.  And if you want to try and argue what the majority of people believe, the majority do not agree with you.  In fact, a very strong majority disagree with you, which is why abortion rights have been supported in every state election since Roe was overthrown.  Yes, even in conservative states.  And finally, again, a free society demands that abortion rights be accessible.  There is NO getting around that.  But unfortunately, like most conservatives today, you apparently do not believe in a free society.  Because this is a free society, you can choose to live within whatever limits you choose, and nobody will care.  What you CANNOT do, though, is impose YOUR limits on anyone else.

So why get your knickers in a bunch for what I believe? Am I suppossed to just say oh well the majority wants this so I will see it their way? Is that a free society? I said before if there cannot be a ban then it is better left to the states. That would be a fair, each state decides what they want.

No, because individual rights and individual liberties are too important to be voted on.  Individual rights and individual liberties accrue to the person based on who they are, not where they are.  An enlightened and better society would simply grant them regardless of what random, bigoted morons think.  If you don't want to be aligned with that group, then walk away.  That's a choice too.  It is the height of hypocrisy to avail oneself of a "right" that you favor, while denying to another a "right" that you don't.

And the answer to your other question is this: "No, you don't have to see it their way, but you do have to let them live their life just as you do yours.  If they make a different choice than you would, celebrate the fact that you live in a country that respects individual liberties."  Nobody tells you that you must get an abortion.  It is your choice, and the other side will always defend your right to make whatever choice you wish.  Do the same for them.  Be worthy of the name, "American."  That is after all a large part of what America is supposed to be: A place that respects the individual.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 6, 2023 20:03:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 6, 2023 19:50:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

let's just rename the US the Christian Republic of the United States and Territories.  no need for a constitution when you got a Bible.

No. Fake Christians can create their own country if they must, but I don't think we should concede our country to them. 

did you miss the acronym?

[busymom]

I'm going to add to the information that countrygirl2 shared.  The facility that my relative lived in constantly had problems with theft.  Since there were no cameras in the hallway, we couldn't prove if the thieves were outside visitors who came in during the day, or if it was staff members preying on the residents who lived there.  Money, clothing, you name it, it would "magically" disappear.  My relative had a lot of clothing that was just plain gone during the time he lived there (staff actually recommended buying replacements at Goodwill, or some other thrift stores so he wouldn't be targeted.)  In fact, after he died and we were cleaning out his room, we noticed all of his outerwear (Fall & Winter jackets, gloves, hats, etc.), his Winter boots, and all of his shoes were missing.  Of course, no one who works there knew what happened.  What a pathetic thing to do to folks who literally have to live off of the crumbs that the government sends to the disabled & elderly, who have no other assets.  My heart breaks for people who have no family to at least try & watch over them.     So, is this a model for a country that claims to live the Christian lifestyle?  If we're not taking good care of our weakest, we are failing on all levels.  We're already treating a segment of our society as "disposable", so why make even more who won't be properly cared for?  

[dondubble]

Nov 6, 2023 19:33:35 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 6, 2023 19:18:38 GMT -5 scgal said:

So why get your knickers in a bunch for what I believe? Am I suppossed to just say oh well the majority wants this so I will see it their way? Is that a free society? I said before if there cannot be a ban then it is better left to the states. That would be a fair, each state decides what they want.

Why a state government decision? Why not a county decision? Or a city based decision?

Or an individual’s decision.

[Opti]

Nov 6, 2023 20:26:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 6, 2023 20:03:13 GMT -5 Opti said:

No. Fake Christians can create their own country if they must, but I don't think we should concede our country to them. 

did you miss the acronym?

Did not notice, but CRUST? 

[thyme4change]

Nov 6, 2023 9:48:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

Define medically necessary.

Do women have to be dying, or just sick? If the pregnancy isn’t viable, but the mother isn’t sick yet - can she have an abortion? If the likelihood that the mother will be in medical danger, can she abort before she is sick?

What about women who are unstable and suicidal? Or women who are in domestic violence situations and a pregnancy will anger her abuser? Do we care about their lives?

[Opti]

Getting to the point of where the heart starts developing guarantees nothing. Being born doesn't either.

Read a sad story a few days ago I almost posted. A poor woman had a baby who turned out to have a genetic condition where all the bones were extremely frail. They only discovered this after the BF had been jailed for killing the baby. The baby lived for 11 days and had about 65 or 67 fractures. Many were probably from being born, as the skull had multiple fractures. Its now believed that the baby died when one of its ribs fractured and pierced its liver. It was a very sad story as the baby's life must have been constant pain and the BF who bought all these things for the child was jailed for something he did not cause.

Nature is cruel and unpredictable. One cannot legislate health and life for a fetus. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Nov 6, 2023 23:50:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 6, 2023 9:48:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

Define medically necessary.

Do women have to be dying, or just sick? If the pregnancy isn’t viable, but the mother isn’t sick yet - can she have an abortion? If the likelihood that the mother will be in medical danger, can she abort before she is sick?

What about women who are unstable and suicidal? Or women who are in domestic violence situations and a pregnancy will anger her abuser? Do we care about their lives?

The way CHI handles it, a private Catholic hospital chain with really strict adherence to their flavor of Catholic doctrine if there is still a fetal heartbeat you have to wait until there isn't one.  If the mother dies before that happens oh well. 

And DH would have no choice in who to save either.  Living will?  Pfft they have the right to ignore it because it goes against their religion if I have one that says save me.  They will save the baby at the mother's expense.  Period.

They are losing OB/gyns left and right over this.  It's making women's health care even harder to obtain in a lot of rural areas because CHI owns the only hospitals and clinics in those areas.  Areas that already have a high maternal/fetal death rate.

But hey that's the price we pay for doing the Lord's work right?    Maybe those women shouldn't be living in those places if they think they have the right to have sex and make babies.

[scgal]

Nov 6, 2023 23:50:16 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Nov 6, 2023 9:48:53 GMT -5 scgal said:

I'm not imposing my will on anyone, no more than any law imposing something. It is really that simple. 

I do agree the laws in most states are poorly written. Medical necessary abortions are the only ones should be allowed. No elective abortions. If this is the case then Dr's should not be worried


Mother and baby care, most states already have a program for this. 

As far as guns whatever, I have a stance on that it is no big deal. If the 2a was changed we would deal with it.  

Countrygirl, I applaud you in my volunteer work I see where many children are neglected especially special needs kids. 

The thing is, it is not going to be perfect there is always going to be what about this and what about that. I simply believe in no elective abortion because not just I but many believe a heartbeat means the life of the baby and willing to abort is the same as murder. My mind cannot be changed and I will still push forward on the issue. 

 

Define medically necessary.

Do women have to be dying, or just sick? If the pregnancy isn’t viable, but the mother isn’t sick yet - can she have an abortion? If the likelihood that the mother will be in medical danger, can she abort before she is sick?

What about women who are unstable and suicidal? Or women who are in domestic violence situations and a pregnancy will anger her abuser? Do we care about their lives?

That should be left to a dr to determine. As long as a woman cannot go into a office or clinic and get an abortion just because she wants one I'm good. What I see that no one here does is that little clump of cells is a baby, I don't care what anyone else believes or says that is how I see it. My hope and wish is one day the SC will see it the same way. 

[Pink Cashmere]

I just want to say that I hope that all of the arguments with scgal about abortion can be contained in this thread. 

It has become tiresome that most threads scgal posts in, have devolved into arguments about either gun rights or issues regarding abortion, even when neither subject was the original point of discussion. 

That is all I wanted to say.

ETA: apparently I am a dumbass too, because I thought I was making this post on the thread about abortion being a political issue.