The border is not open

[Opti]

Sept 27, 2023 0:46:43 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Sept 25, 2023 21:59:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Another news article by fox. Do you actually read anything that isn’t right wing garbage?

I do. But Fox seems to cover things legacy media does not. For example, this news story - www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-republican-introduces-bill-bar-migrant-related-funding-sanctuary-cities

I looked for this news story on all the legacy media and none of them had it on their web sites. ABC, CBS, NBC, Associated Press, The Guardian, PBS, Reuters. Spent over 1 hr looking and nothing.

Your response I'm sure is it wasn't worth covering. And you wonder why I read Fox news. I found it interesting.

Looks like its on Fox Digital because one of the lawmakers specifically sought them out to tell them about his bill.

"However illogical, New York Democrats are free to keep their failed sanctuary city policies which are helping to cause New York City’s migrant crisis and the $12 billion Mayor Adams says it will cost," LaLota said in a statement to Fox News Digital.


New York GOP Rep. Nick LaLota’s No Bailout for Sanctuary Cities Act would bar federal funding from going to any sanctuary jurisdiction for the purposes of addressing the ongoing migrant crisis.



Specifically, it would block funding for "the provision of food, shelter, healthcare services, legal services, and transportation" of those in the country illegally. Notably, it would include blocking funding to New York City, which has been hit with an influx of over 110,000 migrants since last year, and with which Democrat officials have called for more help from the government and warned it could cost $12 billion by 2025.


I take it that the bill might prevent fed funds being used to bus these people from Texas to New York. I would guess that few healthcare services are being provided in any event. What is there is probably volunteers with donated medical supplies. Like some free to low cost health clinics in the US should someone be lucky enough to find one. 

I do not know for certain, but I would guess that these cities at most are paying for temporary housing and some food. Some of the food might be donated through food pantry non profits and various churches. 

[tallguy]

Sept 27, 2023 0:46:43 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Sept 25, 2023 21:59:59 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Another news article by fox. Do you actually read anything that isn’t right wing garbage?

I do. But Fox seems to cover things legacy media does not. For example, this news story - www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-republican-introduces-bill-bar-migrant-related-funding-sanctuary-cities

I looked for this news story on all the legacy media and none of them had it on their web sites. ABC, CBS, NBC, Associated Press, The Guardian, PBS, Reuters. Spent over 1 hr looking and nothing.

Your response I'm sure is it wasn't worth covering. And you wonder why I read Fox news. I found it interesting.

Why do you find non-serious politicians doing nothing more than political grandstanding interesting?  I would find it a lot more interesting if they worked on finding real solutions to real problems.  But that's me, I guess.  

[djAdvocate]

Sept 26, 2023 20:32:56 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Sept 26, 2023 3:05:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

rip- i need you to do something for me.

define "sanctuary state".

you seem to think that it is an open invitation to illegal migration.
it isn't.
it has a very specific meaning.
what is it

What I found it's this - "While there is no legal definition for sanctuary policies, the term is applied to jurisdictions that limit cooperation with federal immigration authorities, such as failing to provide information about immigration status and limiting the length of immigration detainers"'.

If I'm a illegal, I know I can go to these states/cities and not have to worry about if I run into trouble, they won't call INS and inquire about my status. If that's not a inducement to go to these places I don't know what is. Food, housing, medical, transportation etc. All free.

what kind of trouble?  

PS- i agree with that definition.  

[ripvanwinkle]

Sept 27, 2023 3:53:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 26, 2023 20:32:56 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

What I found it's this - "While there is no legal definition for sanctuary policies, the term is applied to jurisdictions that limit cooperation with federal immigration authorities, such as failing to provide information about immigration status and limiting the length of immigration detainers"'.

If I'm a illegal, I know I can go to these states/cities and not have to worry about if I run into trouble, they won't call INS and inquire about my status. If that's not a inducement to go to these places I don't know what is. Food, housing, medical, transportation etc. All free.

what kind of trouble?  

PS- i agree with that definition.  

Maybe if they were driving under the influence and got into a accident or a domestic fight or there was a party and some sort of altercation happens and the police are called and taken to the police station they would be questioned and released without checking with the INS on their status.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 28, 2023 21:12:27 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Sept 27, 2023 3:53:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what kind of trouble?  

PS- i agree with that definition.  

Maybe if they were driving under the influence and got into a accident or a domestic fight or there was a party and some sort of altercation happens and the police are called and taken to the police station they would be questioned and released without checking with the INS on their status.

Or maybe not.

[Opti]

Sept 28, 2023 22:48:38 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 28, 2023 21:12:27 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Maybe if they were driving under the influence and got into a accident or a domestic fight or there was a party and some sort of altercation happens and the police are called and taken to the police station they would be questioned and released without checking with the INS on their status.

Or maybe not.

Generally they would be asked for their driver's license or other form of ID. I think the police would be aware when they couldn't give them anything or whatever it was, was fake.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 28, 2023 21:12:27 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

Sept 27, 2023 3:53:55 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

what kind of trouble?  

PS- i agree with that definition.  

Maybe if they were driving under the influence and got into a accident or a domestic fight or there was a party and some sort of altercation happens and the police are called and taken to the police station they would be questioned and released without checking with the INS on their status.

that is not how it works in California (the bold part.  the UNBOLDED part goes to my second point about being a witness, rip.  do you really want them getting deported basically for being a witness?  really?  because that doesn't seem like you)

in CA, if the person in question is caught commiting a crime, and their immigration status is called into question, the INS is called in.  the INS is NOT called in if their only "crime" is that they are undocumented.  for example, if they WITNESS A CRIME BEING COMMITTED, they are not deported if they are here without papers.

i am wondering how widespread this misunderstanding is.

do you remember Trump talking about MS-13? if you don't, you can probably find a dozen clips on it. this is something that Democrats, Republicans, and Independents worry about. so, dealing with them has broad appeal. say you are from El Salvador, and you know someone who is in that gang, and you have reason to believe that they were involved in a crime. but you are here without documents. is there any way in HELL you are going to step forward in a non-sanctuary state? no way. and here is the more important truth- if you are NOT part of that community, you are not going to catch them. it takes members of that community coming forward to stop organized crime.



i would characterize someone against MS-13 and against sanctuary cities as "logically inconsistent". you can't be for or against BOTH.  

[djAdvocate]

incidentally, a DUI is super heavy and life altering in CA.
i am not exaggerating.

[jerseygirl]

Elon Musk interview at border


x.com/elonmusk/status/1707565081750290910?s=20

[djAdvocate]

Sept 29, 2023 12:34:00 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Elon Musk interview at border


x.com/elonmusk/status/1707565081750290910?s=20

i am tired of this asshat.  and i am listening to a really interesting record by a band called Gay Beast.  so, i am not going to turn that off for him.

what did he have to say?  anything sensible?

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2023 14:42:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 29, 2023 12:34:00 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Elon Musk interview at border


x.com/elonmusk/status/1707565081750290910?s=20

i am tired of this asshat.  and i am listening to a really interesting record by a band called Gay Beast.  so, i am not going to turn that off for him.

what did he have to say?  anything sensible?

I stopped it pretty quickly as one of the Sheriff's lied saying he was told about an open border policy from the WH. Reality is Biden was President I believe on Jan. 20, 2021, and the Covid border restrictions were not lifted until May 2022. Looks like Elon commissioned a vanity video to show his POV and hosted it on his platform X. I doubt any of them will mention that the long stretch of border in that area has no wall etc. because of people wanting to preserve their property rights up to the border more than they want a physical wall built on their stretch of land.


Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas formally announced on Friday that families and single adult asylum seekers who had been turned away at the U.S.-Mexico border since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic will have their chance to enter the U.S. and make an asylum claim starting May 23.
www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/biden-admin-will-officially-end-title-42-covid-restriction-border-may-rcna22610

ETA - It appears way too many conservatives can't tell the difference from Trump's policies which does not a closed border make and current policies. The pent-up demand and relentless attempts make it too easy for some of them to assume it is an open border that is bringing them. It is not. It is the end of the pandemic phase and the desire to flee their countries. Some will die before getting here and some will be exploited and possibly killed shortly after arriving. I read recently Germany is being overrun as well which cannot be explained by Biden or Trump policies. Its an issue for many countries except for perhaps Russia and North Korea. Ethnic Armenians are currently fleeing their home to another area in the country due to separatist government crap going on in Armenia. Crap in other countries does not stop nor start simply because President X or Y is in office in the US.

[ripvanwinkle]

LOL...This is so sweet. I just cant get enough of this. The liberal social experiment is crumbling.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-gov-hochul-wants-to-limit-who-crosses-border-says-it-s-too-open-right-now/ar-AA1hxo4Z?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=bce0e3723b9f4cf89c1fc80dbb7c0e3c&ei=14 .

"Well, we want them to have a limit on who can come across the border. It is too open right now," Hochul said. "People coming from all over the world are finding their way through simply saying they need asylum. And the majority of them seem to be ending up in the streets of New York. And that is a real problem for New York City, 125,000 newly arrived individuals. And we are being taxed."

Whats the solution? I don't have one. Maybe throw the borders wide open and accept it. Or maybe go back to the old immigration rules and strictly enforce them.

[tbop77]

Oct 1, 2023 22:16:45 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

LOL...This is so sweet. I just cant get enough of this. The liberal social experiment is crumbling.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-gov-hochul-wants-to-limit-who-crosses-border-says-it-s-too-open-right-now/ar-AA1hxo4Z?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=bce0e3723b9f4cf89c1fc80dbb7c0e3c&ei=14 .

"Well, we want them to have a limit on who can come across the border. It is too open right now," Hochul said. "People coming from all over the world are finding their way through simply saying they need asylum. And the majority of them seem to be ending up in the streets of New York. And that is a real problem for New York City, 125,000 newly arrived individuals. And we are being taxed."

Whats the solution? I don't have one. Maybe throw the borders wide open and accept it. Or maybe go back to the old immigration rules and strictly enforce them.

I think the bolded says it all on why this will ALWAYS continue to be an issue.  

[Opti]

Oct 2, 2023 6:06:52 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Oct 1, 2023 22:16:45 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

LOL...This is so sweet. I just cant get enough of this. The liberal social experiment is crumbling.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-gov-hochul-wants-to-limit-who-crosses-border-says-it-s-too-open-right-now/ar-AA1hxo4Z?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=bce0e3723b9f4cf89c1fc80dbb7c0e3c&ei=14 .

"Well, we want them to have a limit on who can come across the border. It is too open right now," Hochul said. "People coming from all over the world are finding their way through simply saying they need asylum. And the majority of them seem to be ending up in the streets of New York. And that is a real problem for New York City, 125,000 newly arrived individuals. And we are being taxed."

Whats the solution? I don't have one. Maybe throw the borders wide open and accept it. Or maybe go back to the old immigration rules and strictly enforce them.

I think the bolded says it all on why this will ALWAYS continue to be an issue.  

Some people love to see and us them world in which they are winning. They don't do nuance and don't get they aren't winning, it isn't a liberal social experiment and that their preferred media lies to them to fluff their ego. No one wants a totally open border not even the heads of companies that rely on those who come over for cheap labor. 

I believe we are already at the old immigration rules during the Trump Presidency. The difference is the Covid restrictions have been lifted and Biden's policies have softened on deporting those who are here illegally if it would deprive a child of its parents. Demand is higher all over the globe so no surprise it is hitting here as well. Where are all the articles on the upstanding Texas citizens who complain about the immigration problem but will not give up any of their property to the US government for a border fence to be built. Those stories need to be told in conjunction with people coming across our southern border and living in the streets because there is nowhere for them to go. (An issue in Mexico too FWIW.)

Summary - liberals do not want open borders either or too many immigrants to process. However, when demand is so high, and supply remains limited we end up where we are now. There is a story I did not post that I have mixed feelings about. A woman when she was 18 managed to successfully cross the border and stay after 5 attempts. I think she was deported a couple of times.
She married a man who managed to go the process legally and had I think four kids. She worked and made income. She was deported during Trump's presidency when her daughter was young. ( 4 to 5 years old?) Her daughter now 11 years old has written to Biden about the situation. Mom may have at least two more years to go before she can attempt to come her legally.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 1, 2023 22:16:45 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

LOL...This is so sweet. I just cant get enough of this. The liberal social experiment is crumbling.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-gov-hochul-wants-to-limit-who-crosses-border-says-it-s-too-open-right-now/ar-AA1hxo4Z?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=bce0e3723b9f4cf89c1fc80dbb7c0e3c&ei=14 .

"Well, we want them to have a limit on who can come across the border. It is too open right now," Hochul said. "People coming from all over the world are finding their way through simply saying they need asylum. And the majority of them seem to be ending up in the streets of New York. And that is a real problem for New York City, 125,000 newly arrived individuals. And we are being taxed."

Whats the solution? I don't have one. Maybe throw the borders wide open and accept it. Or maybe go back to the old immigration rules and strictly enforce them.

My solution would be send them all to your home and set up long-term tents for them to live there. That would be karma in action.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 1, 2023 22:16:45 GMT -5 ripvanwinkle said:

LOL...This is so sweet. I just cant get enough of this. The liberal social experiment is crumbling.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-gov-hochul-wants-to-limit-who-crosses-border-says-it-s-too-open-right-now/ar-AA1hxo4Z?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=bce0e3723b9f4cf89c1fc80dbb7c0e3c&ei=14 .

"Well, we want them to have a limit on who can come across the border. It is too open right now," Hochul said. "People coming from all over the world are finding their way through simply saying they need asylum. And the majority of them seem to be ending up in the streets of New York. And that is a real problem for New York City, 125,000 newly arrived individuals. And we are being taxed."

Whats the solution? I don't have one. Maybe throw the borders wide open and accept it. Or maybe go back to the old immigration rules and strictly enforce them.

net migration has been declining for two decades.  it is down again this year.  so, when, exactly do you want to go back to?  1992?  i think that was the last time net migration was this low.  half of the US population was not even alive, then.


edit: net migration is the lowest it has been since 1988.  if it continues falling, it will be the lowest since 1973.  it is already causing serious problems.  the problems are going to get more serious, without immigration reform.


www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/net-migration

[thyme4change]

The best way to decrease immigration is to tank the economy. Once America collapses, people will be streaming out of here in droves.

[djAdvocate]

that is why net migration continues to decline.
the opportunities in Mexico are improving.
the opportunities here are not.


it is a shame that 1/3 of the population wants to crash their cars rather than let their neighbors borrow them.

[jerseygirl]

Migration to US has increased over time especially at southern border


Massaging this to net over time and per population as in dj’s post obscures this
[br


www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/09/whats-happening-at-the-u-s-mexico-border-in-7-charts/ft_21-11-01_mexicoborder_1a/


www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time

www.prb.org/resources/trends-in-migration-to-the-u-s/

[djAdvocate]

no attempt to obscure anything was made.

the number of migrants as a percentage of our population has been declining for close to a decade, and is still well below the 60 year period following the end of the Civil War.

the freakout is completely unwarranted, Jersey.  that is the ENTIRETY of my point.

[jerseygirl]

Oct 3, 2023 17:44:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no attempt to obscure anything was made.

the number of migrants as a percentage of our population has been declining for close to a decade, and is still well below the 60 year period following the end of the Civil War.

the freakout is completely unwarranted, Jersey.  that is the ENTIRETY of my point.

Didn’t say YOU intended to obscure anything. But the presentation does tend to obscure

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2023 17:54:56 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Oct 3, 2023 17:44:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no attempt to obscure anything was made.

the number of migrants as a percentage of our population has been declining for close to a decade, and is still well below the 60 year period following the end of the Civil War.

the freakout is completely unwarranted, Jersey.  that is the ENTIRETY of my point.

Didn’t say YOU intended to obscure anything. But the presentation does tend to obscure

what presentation?  i don't know anyone else that has "presented" this data, other than me.

again, the only thing i am PRESENTING is that the portion of the US population that is migrant is declining, and has been for some time.  that is the opposite of the narrative being presented in the mainstream media, on this board, and particularly in right wing circles.

but rather than debating the point, which is not debatable, imo- why don't you explain to me what has everyone running around with their hair on fire over this?

[djAdvocate]

that didn't sound very welcoming.  

let me try again.  i hear people up in arms about this all the time, but the data presents a different story than the photographs.  so, what is it about the photographs (since the data doesn't support them) that people find so alarming?  what concerns them about women and children coming here from Venezuela (for example)?

i am TRYING to understand it.

[jerseygirl]

Presentation refers to the graph and manner the data are ‘presented’, not YOUR presentation

Why are folks concerned about southern border? Look at second link I posted and the NUMBERS of people (not % of US population) that are coming over the border and trouble NYC is having dealing with these large numbers of people

[pulmonarymd]

Seems like Congress should come up with a plan that could pass the house, senate, and be signed by the president to do something about it. Instead, we are treated to a circle jerk where republicans couldn’t pass a budget, a continuing resolution is passed to kick it down the road 45 days, kick out the current speaker so we can now be treated to god knows how many votes to replace him, so we can do this all again. Not to mention we are treated to impeachment hearings to impeach Biden for his knows what. We can then go through this whole budget dance to shut the government down again before thanksgiving.

If they want Ed to actually solve the problem they would try to pass something both sides could agree to instead of preening for Fox News

[tallguy]

That's the problem though.  Republicans do not want to actually govern, because governing requires work, and thought, and concern, and compromise.  Way too much effort involved in all that.  Easier to just spout crap on right-wing media to make a name for him/herself to profit from later.     

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2023 18:27:34 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Presentation refers to the graph and manner the data are ‘presented’, not YOUR presentation

Why are folks concerned about southern border? Look at second link I posted and the NUMBERS of people (not % of US population) that are coming over the border and trouble NYC is having dealing with these large numbers of people

i looked at all your links.  they show me different ways of presenting the data that are far more alarming.  but it is all the same data.  and THAT is what you are complaining about.

but i am not complaining about it.  in fact, i am saying that all of the presentations are correct.  including mine.  there is nothing "deceptive" about them.

for decades, we had a decline in net migration, to the point where less than 1/20th the population was migrant in about 1980.  that number has more than doubled since then, and THAT is what has people freaked out, because they don't understand that 1980 was a LOW POINT in migrant population that dated back to 1800.  and i guess that is what the US wants?  a population that is 95% non-migrant.  

ok, great.  but what if that 5% was not very healthy for a growing, dynamic economy?  what if we need something more like 10-15%, like we had between 1870 and 1970?   what if that were BETTER for the US than what we had in 1980?

in other words, i question our objectivity about the "problem".  but moreover, i STILL question why we are getting freaked out about a problem which was measurably "worse" prior to 1920?  in other words i think our capacity for dealing with the problem is probably better than it was then, but we are CHOOSING to not exercise that capacity.

why?

[djAdvocate]

Oct 3, 2023 18:47:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

That's the problem though.  Republicans do not want to actually govern, because governing requires work, and thought, and concern, and compromise.  Way too much effort involved in all that.  Easier to just spout crap on right-wing media to make a name for him/herself to profit from later.     

i think it is far worse than that.  they want someone to pin the blame on, so they are pinning it on brown people.  

the fact of the matter is that brown people and MANY of the white people that are complaining have the same grievances.  they are not being served well by, really, anyone.  not government, certainly- but that is because government is increasingly serving the needs of corporations, who are the OTHER source of their miseries.  and because they think that corporations are on one side, and government is on the other, they are believing the corporations, for some odd reason.

that is not how it worked in the 20's, the last time we had this problem.
it should not be how it works, now.

[jerseygirl]

Unexpected - Seems Biden may be getting ready to build at least some part of a southern border wall. Maybe 20 miles

Having been to Great Wall of China wonder if some time in the future it will be a tourist attraction. Although probably not cause the China wall is massive compared to the weird construction. Berlin Wall also didn’t last for many years but ruined many lives

apnews.com/article/border-wall-biden-immigration-texas-rio-grande-147d7ab497e6991e9ea929242f21ceb2

[scgal]

Oct 3, 2023 17:44:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

no attempt to obscure anything was made.

the number of migrants as a percentage of our population has been declining for close to a decade, and is still well below the 60 year period following the end of the Civil War.

the freakout is completely unwarranted, Jersey.  that is the ENTIRETY of my point.

That is the wrong way to look at it. It doesn't matter the percentage of people who are in the country just how many illegals are increasing that is the real problem. That is what causes the burdeon.