pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 11:26:11 GMT -5
Alright, plenty written about in the NYT this one on why wokeness will fail. www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/social-justice-america.html"A typical example: The American Medical Association recently published its “Guide to Language, Narrative and Concepts,” which includes such recommendations as replacing the term “disadvantaged” with “historically and intentionally excluded,” “social problem” with “social injustice,” “vulnerable” with “oppressed,” and “blacklist” and “blackmail” with words that don’t suggest an association between the word “black” and “suspicion or disapproval.” This isn’t silly. It’s Orwellian. It’s a blunt attempt to turn everyday speech into a perpetual, politicized and nearly unconscious indictment of “the system.” Anyone who has spent time analyzing how the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century operated will note the similarities" The Orwellian nightmare is Communism. There's other pieces but its gone behind a paywall. This one in the WSJ again behind a paywall you can only see excerpts. www.wsj.com/articles/kimberle-crenshaw-critical-race-theory-woke-marxism-education-11626793272this one newdiscourses.com/2020/07/complex-relationship-between-marxism-wokeness/In fact there are pieces challenging these ideal across the net. I get my sources from all over and without prejudice. If a particular theme keeps coming up I want to know more. If this has caused enough resentment for talk of civil war. Its as well to know why. Oh and I have looked at totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. More out of interest really and can see the similarities. We get it. You have an ax to grind. You search out all the right wing nonsense about being "woke" and fail to read any rebuttals to it, and generalize it to the US society as a whole. I am a physician. Medical language and terminology changes all the time, usually for the better, but not always. But making medical language more neutral IS beneficial in the long run, because people who are more comfortable let the defenses down and will do better with treatment. I fail to see how that is a negative. Or we could just continue to use the old racist terminology that allowed us to think the Tuskegee experiments were justifiable. Seems like that would be an example of our "wokeness" leading to a better place. The size and scope of the US is such that anyone trying to make a blanket statement about it is wrong. And it isn't the woke among us who keep threatening civil war. It is the Fox News consuming, right wing, conservative, Trump loving Republicans who are the ones threatening violence and civil war. But that doesn't fit your viewpoint.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 14, 2023 11:56:24 GMT -5
Interesting if hideous about civil war. I’ve only seen references to this on these postings. I live in a HCOL very well educated town and county that is republican . Many other towns/counties in NJ same. Never have heard of wanting a civil war
But of course there are crazies -it’s a big country Could someone post a reference to wanting civil war here in the US. and thinking the riot /insurrection Jan 6 did include these crazies but also thinking not main stream republicans. Of course some will point to trump but are there any real references to him wanting civil war? Or is it just people saying he wants this??
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 12:00:36 GMT -5
Interesting if hideous about civil war. I’ve only seen references to this on these postings. I live in a HCOL very well educated town and county that is republican . Many other towns/counties in NJ same. Never have heard of wanting a civil war But of course there are crazies -it’s a big country Could someone post a reference to wanting civil war here in the US. and thinking the riot /insurrection Jan 6 did include these crazies but also thinking not main stream republicans. Of course some will point to trump but are there any real references to him wanting civil war? Or is it just people saying he wants this?? Do you deny that Trump encouraged these actions on 1/6? Do you deny that Trump was looking for ways to override the Constitution to stay in power? Do you deny that Trump continues to claim that Pence had the right to throw out all those votes that he wanted discounted, and that he continues to cast doubt on the integrity of the 2020 elections, even though he lost in court 62 times? He may not have come out in favor of civil war, but he continues to be a rabble rouser and threatening violence. And if he is the 2024 Republican candidate, and you and your friends vote for him, you are saying that all the above actions are OK.
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 14, 2023 12:07:11 GMT -5
Interesting if hideous about civil war. I’ve only seen references to this on these postings. I live in a HCOL very well educated town and county that is republican . Many other towns/counties in NJ same. Never have heard of wanting a civil war But of course there are crazies -it’s a big country Could someone post a reference to wanting civil war here in the US. and thinking the riot /insurrection Jan 6 did include these crazies but also thinking not main stream republicans. Of course some will point to trump but are there any real references to him wanting civil war? Or is it just people saying he wants this?? Do you deny that Trump encouraged these actions on 1/6? Do you deny that Trump was looking for ways to override the Constitution to stay in power? Do you deny that Trump continues to claim that Pence had the right to throw out all those votes that he wanted discounted, and that he continues to cast doubt on the integrity of the 2020 elections, even though he lost in court 62 times? He may not have come out in favor of civil war, but he continues to be a rabble rouser and threatening violence. And if he is the 2024 Republican candidate, and you and your friends vote for him, you are saying that all the above actions are OK. Not at all and neither me nor friends plan to vote for him. But can you post a ACTUAL reference not an insinuation to wanting a civil war? That’s a huge step from rabble rousing and threatening that are elevated to wanting a civil war as postulated by lefties? Who? Unlikely by mainstream democratics
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 12:23:20 GMT -5
Its not right wing over here and we don't have Trump.
I have been accused of fitting in to all sorts of US cliches.... but since I'm not American they mean nothing.
What I'm not is far left or far right.
Didn't you have a civil rights movement?
There are Black senior police officers, Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Business leaders. President. Many of the best people in the Country are Black...... in every city and establishment in the land.
Did you forget about the progress which has been made?
The George Floyd incident was horrendous.... but its not the norm. The protests were valid. People were right to be angry and they needed to be heard. You learn from it and make sure it can't happen again.
Doesn't mean you have to entrench some wacky communist nonsense. Which can only cause more division.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 12:29:45 GMT -5
Do you deny that Trump encouraged these actions on 1/6? Do you deny that Trump was looking for ways to override the Constitution to stay in power? Do you deny that Trump continues to claim that Pence had the right to throw out all those votes that he wanted discounted, and that he continues to cast doubt on the integrity of the 2020 elections, even though he lost in court 62 times? He may not have come out in favor of civil war, but he continues to be a rabble rouser and threatening violence. And if he is the 2024 Republican candidate, and you and your friends vote for him, you are saying that all the above actions are OK. Not at all and neither me nor friends plan to vote for him. But can you post a ACTUAL reference not an insinuation to wanting a civil war? That’s a huge step from rabble rousing and threatening that are elevated to wanting a civil war as postulated by lefties? Who? Unlikely by mainstream democratics You mean like this www.nytimes.com/2022/10/05/us/politics/civil-war-social-media-trump.html
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 12:35:01 GMT -5
Its not right wing over here and we don't have Trump. I have been accused of fitting in to all sorts of US cliches.... but since I'm not American they mean nothing. What I'm not is far left or far right. Didn't you have a civil rights movement? There are Black senior police officers, Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Business leaders. President. Many of the best people in the Country are Black...... in every city and establishment in the land. Did you forget about the progress which has been made? The George Floyd incident was horrendous.... but its not the norm. The protests were valid. People were right to be angry and they needed to be heard. You learn from it and make sure it can't happen again. Doesn't mean you have to entrench some wacky communist nonsense. Which can only cause more division. There is where you are wrong. Not being an American, you may not appreciate it. Black people are killed for jogging through a neighborhood in Georgia. A black employee was attacked in Alabama just for doing his job, and the attackers brandished the N word. A black motorist who was legally carrying a gun, who informed the officer he was carrying a gun, and made no aggressive movements, was shot and killed by the officer. Black infant and maternal mortality is higher than whites, even after adjusted for income. Blacks own homes at a lower rate, and have a lower net worth than whites They have a lower life expectancy. And on and on.... But sure, everything is peachy here. And people like Trump continue to beat the racist drum.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 12:49:20 GMT -5
So again, more progress to be made Why not address it like a civilised society. Adopting woke is not what you think it is and its not the answer. As for Trump.... He is undoubtedly dangerous. .......and instead of letting him be hoisted by his own petard You have managed to turn him into some sort of anti hero.
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Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2023 13:01:02 GMT -5
Its still true though. I knew you were going to say something similar but chose a post that is easily understandable. I could have chosen something British because the commentators are saying the same things. Universities, Schools even the entertainment industry have reference to this. The Ny Post is not a reputable source. It has been a crap paper since my childhood. I grew up in the NY area. Even in the 70s, the Post was the worst ranked paper. The Murdoch's have done nothing to improve its reputation, not its journalism. Quoting it just shows how biased you are. It is the Fox News of NY papers, and is the embodiment of "If it bleeds, it leads." But it fits your narrative. Since you do not live here, if this is the sources you want to use to further your criticism of the US, just shut up. I am sure if I used one of the Fleet street rags to criticize the UK, you would be howling about my ignorance, so take your own advice. It's a crap paper that's on par with the National Enquirer. however, I give them kudos for the best headlines.
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 14, 2023 13:04:31 GMT -5
NY Post headline
X has foot decapitated
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jerseygirl
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Post by jerseygirl on Aug 14, 2023 13:06:11 GMT -5
PM thanks for the link. Not at home so can’t access on phone. Is it an editorial? Or news ?
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Post by grumpyhermit on Aug 14, 2023 13:14:36 GMT -5
Its not right wing over here and we don't have Trump. I have been accused of fitting in to all sorts of US cliches.... but since I'm not American they mean nothing. What I'm not is far left or far right. Didn't you have a civil rights movement? There are Black senior police officers, Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Business leaders. President. Many of the best people in the Country are Black...... in every city and establishment in the land. Did you forget about the progress which has been made? The George Floyd incident was horrendous.... but its not the norm. The protests were valid. People were right to be angry and they needed to be heard. You learn from it and make sure it can't happen again. Doesn't mean you have to entrench some wacky communist nonsense. Which can only cause more division. Sure did, and it didn't actually fix shit, because the racism runs to the core of this country. Until we can admit that, and address it in meaningful ways, it's all just gloss. Just because progress has been made, doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot further to go. I think the more you talk about US politics, the more you highlight how little you understand this country. What you also fail to grasp, is that while you may not have Trump, based on the bullshit you are spouting, your country has certainly been infiltrated by the same far right ideology that is rotting the US from the core. You may call it by another name, but your rhetoric gives it away.
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 13:14:41 GMT -5
PM thanks for the link. Not at home so can’t access on phone. Is it an editorial? Or news ? Not an opinion piece. Someone who worked in Homeland Security under Trump is quoted
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 13:18:52 GMT -5
So again, more progress to be made Why not address it like a civilised society. Adopting woke is not what you think it is and its not the answer. As for Trump.... He is undoubtedly dangerous. .......and instead of letting him be hoisted by his own petard You have managed to turn him into some sort of anti hero. The state of Florida's new history curriculum talks about how slaves acquired useful skills, so slavery wasn't all negative. You THINK we have some work to do? A Republican presidential candidate is defending this curriculum and complaining able all the "woke" people complaining about it. So you need to reconsider your opinions here. And how are we supposed to deal with Trump? 1/3 of republicans support him regardless of what he did. Ignore him? Not prosecute his crimes? Trump is a clear and present danger to our form of government and our constitution. You are seriously naive about this country.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 16:54:08 GMT -5
Alright, plenty written about in the NYT this one on why wokeness will fail. www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/opinion/social-justice-america.html"A typical example: The American Medical Association recently published its “Guide to Language, Narrative and Concepts,” which includes such recommendations as replacing the term “disadvantaged” with “historically and intentionally excluded,” “social problem” with “social injustice,” “vulnerable” with “oppressed,” and “blacklist” and “blackmail” with words that don’t suggest an association between the word “black” and “suspicion or disapproval.” This isn’t silly. It’s Orwellian. It’s a blunt attempt to turn everyday speech into a perpetual, politicized and nearly unconscious indictment of “the system.” Anyone who has spent time analyzing how the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century operated will note the similarities" The Orwellian nightmare is Communism. i had to stop the discussion there. that is not Orwellian. Orwell was anti-statist. 1984 is a critique of government, not a critique of the populace. the AMA is a private organization. it is not part of the state. you know who makes the most Orwellian spewtum on the regular? the GOP. incidentally, 60% of all opinion writing in the US is conservative. it is higher at the WSJ. candidly, i worry about this crusade against wokeism. why? because it is a crusade against hard science, and against liberal critique. it is a crusade against questioning favored truths. it is, above all things, a crusade against awareness. and in a time when our environmental issues are spiraling out of control, none of that can be good.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 16:56:31 GMT -5
Its not right wing over here and we don't have Trump. you have Boris the Spider. he is almost worse, because he is younger. he is going to plague you a lot longer than Trump will.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:03:57 GMT -5
Why is it bullshit?..... Im exposing it, for what it is, as many others from all political persuasions are.... Its not what you want to hear and I get that.
It has been taken up by your far right to gain political advantage..... but we don't have Trump....or any far right MPs.
We have Wokeness .....but its losing traction as more people recognise it from previous incarnations.
Yes I just made that point.
I said he is dangerous.
My posts have been about the real nature of your latest political ideology
You think its the holy grail.... I think its a cloaked Communism.
which would not be acceptable to most Americans
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:12:07 GMT -5
I am the Liberal critique. Awareness? Just pointing out who the puppet masters are.
He is out of politics and was never that right wing, not even conservative according to his detractors.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 17:12:30 GMT -5
i don't know about anyone else, but my latest political ideology is normalcy.
i love normal, now.
and this is coming from a career weirdo.
i am done with weird, for now.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 17:14:41 GMT -5
I am the Liberal critique. Awareness? Just pointing out who the puppet masters are. He is out of politics and was never that right wing, not even conservative according to his detractors. Trump is not conservative. he wants to overturn the established order. that is the opposite of conservatism. Boris Johnson ran on the Conservative Party ticket. i think that makes him, by definition, a conservative. who are the Puppet Masters
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 14, 2023 17:24:31 GMT -5
Why is it bullshit?..... Im exposing it, for what it is, as many others from all political persuasions are.... Its not what you want to hear and I get that. It has been taken up by your far right to gain political advantage..... but we don't have Trump....or any far right MPs. We have Wokeness .....but its losing traction as more people recognise it from previous incarnations. Yes I just made that point. I said he is dangerous. My posts have been about the real nature of your latest political ideology You think its the holy grail.... I think its a cloaked Communism. which would not be acceptable to most Americans The real nature of our ideology? The US is a center right country. You think this is communism. I do not believe you know what the definition of that word means. Only one side wants to keep people down and to ban books, limit what is taught to school children, and is afraid of the "other". And it isn't those who are "woke". This backlash against "wokism" is nothing but disguised racism. The right is afraid that we are heading towards a minority majority country, and they want to keep(take back) "our country". This is nothing new. They did it with the Irish immigration. They did it with the Italian immigration. They are doing it now. ANd they want to keep the black man down. That is all this is, your protestations to the contrary. I have no idea what is going on in the UK, but it is clear you have no idea what is going on in the US. Yet only one of us sees fit to lecture the other about what is going on in their country.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:28:56 GMT -5
The puppet masters are the wokeists ....... Hard left
Its not "normal"
You and I and anyone who has property, land, business, intellect or wealth would be the first ones on the funeral pyre.
He wants power.... and he'll shack up with with anyone who can get him get what he wants.
He was anti communist.... 1984 and Animal farm were political observations.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:42:34 GMT -5
So if you don't agree with hard line communism..... you are a rascist? How does that even begin to make sense?
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 17:43:00 GMT -5
The puppet masters are the wokeists ....... Hard left Its not "normal" You and I and anyone who has property, land, business, intellect or wealth would be the first ones on the funeral pyre. He wants power.... and he'll shack up with with anyone who can get him get what he wants. He was anti communist.... 1984 and Animal farm were political observations. oh, the hard left! got it. you mean the guys who have been pushed out of the political mainstream so far that they have basically no lobbying power? i wish we had a well organized political left, here. i really do. Orwell was both anti-fascist AND anti-communist. the only thing those two have in common is statist authoritarianism. therefore, i would describe Orwell as anti-authoritarian and anti-statist.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 17:44:50 GMT -5
incidentally, i am sorry i get prickly over this subject, but i have been worrying about the rise of fascism in this country since Reagan. and now that it is nearly here, we are having a debate about ..... WOKEISM.
i am definitely worried about the US. but my worry is not coming from the left.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 14, 2023 17:46:58 GMT -5
So if you don't agree with hard line communism..... you are a rascist? How does that even begin to make sense? i think i get it. if you dissect some of the arguments, they are, for example, against making white folks feel badly about slavery, or even consider it as a source of the disadvantages that blacks here experience. that, and the fact that WOKE was coined in the black community. so, being anti-WOKE is, to some degree, being anti-black, whether you "feel" that or not.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:48:05 GMT -5
You do......... you are saturated in it.
Wokeism.... ie the new religion.....is hard left.
Careful what you wish for.
Yes it was... and it was good in the early days.
Until it lost its way and become the familiar old beast that we know so well.
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Post by Opti on Aug 14, 2023 17:49:34 GMT -5
So if you don't agree with hard line communism..... you are a rascist? How does that even begin to make sense? It makes no sense you are equating "wokism" with communism. But here we are at the moment. Again "wokism" is made up BS whose flavor of the moment is based on whatever RWer wants to tilt windmills at it. I don't understand why treating people of different races equally has anything whatsoever to do with communism. Is changing blackmail to threatmail for example really that threatening? Why? Language changes all the time.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 14, 2023 17:56:36 GMT -5
They dont talk about equality they talk about equity ... which is the redistribution of wealth ie a communist principal. Sounds similar but worlds apart.
I have already outlined why.... but yes.... thats what it is. You can dress it how you like.
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Post by Opti on Aug 14, 2023 18:15:20 GMT -5
They dont talk about equality they talk about equity ... which is the redistribution of wealth ie a communist principal. Sounds similar but worlds apart. I have already outlined why.... but yes.... thats what it is. You can dress it how you like. I know of no one who talks about "equity" the way you are talking about. I think you are too fixated on Marxism that you see it places it is not. Feel free to check out Webster's definition of equity, which does not list that as a definition. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equityequity noun eq·ui·ty ˈe-kwə-tē pluralequities Synonyms of equity 1 a : justice according to natural law or right specifically : freedom from bias or favoritism b : something that is equitable 2 a : the money value of a property or of an interest in a property in excess of claims or liens against it b : the common stock of a corporation c : a risk interest or ownership right in propertyPlease note 2c means things like how much of a house might be paid off compared to its current value, i.e. having 40% equity in one's home.
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