Here we go again. 19 children & 2 teachers dead

[justme]

May 26, 2022 20:02:46 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I keep reading we need to arm teachers.  Will the teacher's salary be there existing salary and a police officer's salary too?   Will state boards of education fund the new teachers' job duties?.

Arm the teachers-pay the teachers.

And what type of learning environment are we creating for children in classrooms.

What happens when a kid over powers a teacher and kills people with their gun? What happens if a teacher loses their shit at a kid and breaks out their gun?

[justme]

Well I just got sick. Apparently the cops went in and got THEIR kids out of the school to make sure they were safe. Like I get they're your kids, but your job is to protect all the kids.

[djAdvocate]

the real question is that do we want our kids living in a terror state?

i mean, REALLY, SERIOUSLY, it is safer to send your kids to school in FUCKING GAZA than it is in many places in the US.  

aren't you tired of it, America?  are you really that lost in the fog of terror that it has become "just the way things are"?

[Tennesseer]

May 26, 2022 20:14:58 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

May 26, 2022 20:02:46 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I keep reading we need to arm teachers.  Will the teacher's salary be there existing salary and a police officer's salary too?   Will state boards of education fund the new teachers' job duties?.

Arm the teachers-pay the teachers.

And what type of learning environment are we creating for children in classrooms.

Don't forget, schools also have too many entry points, like windows and doors. Also, maybe not enough barbed wire fences around the perimeter. 

So, more armed guards, fewer windows, high fences...what does this remind me of....

I also saw someone rightly point out, maybe Twitter, that we all know if they arm teachers, it will take about 2 seconds for a cop to "accidentally" shoot an armed black teacher because they "feared for their lives" and thought they were the bad guy. 


God fosrbid we get out collective heads out of our asses and do what any rational country would do and just remove the source of the problem.

If you want to screw up the minds of children, have them try to learn in the nightmarish environment you described. They would be better off learning from home like they did during the Covid pandemic.

[grumpyhermit]

May 26, 2022 20:47:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 26, 2022 20:14:58 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

Don't forget, schools also have too many entry points, like windows and doors. Also, maybe not enough barbed wire fences around the perimeter. 

So, more armed guards, fewer windows, high fences...what does this remind me of....

I also saw someone rightly point out, maybe Twitter, that we all know if they arm teachers, it will take about 2 seconds for a cop to "accidentally" shoot an armed black teacher because they "feared for their lives" and thought they were the bad guy. 


God forbid we get our collective heads out of our asses and do what any rational country would do and just remove the source of the problem.

If you want to screw up the minds of children, have them try to learn in the nightmarish environment you described. They would be better off learning from home like they did during the Covid pandemic.

I fear we have likely already done irreparable harm to this generation of kids. I listen to some of these "solutions" and realize just how much we have lost the plot in this country. 

Some people are willing to contort themselves into absolute pretzels to avoid the logical conclusion. 

[teen persuasion]

May 26, 2022 21:02:46 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

May 26, 2022 20:47:59 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

If you want to screw up the minds of children, have them try to learn in the nightmarish environment you described. They would be better off learning from home like they did during the Covid pandemic.

I fear we have likely already done irreparable harm to this generation of kids. I listen to some of these "solutions" and realize just how much we have lost the plot in this country. 

Some people are willing to contort themselves into absolute pretzels to avoid the logical conclusion. 

I've come to the conclusion that logical thinking is as rare as common sense.

I can't refute someone's opposing arguments if there's no logical basis for the arguments in the first place.

[billisonboard]

May 26, 2022 20:25:09 GMT -5 justme said:

Well I just got sick. Apparently the cops went in and got THEIR kids out of the school to make sure they were safe. Like I get they're your kids, but your job is to protect all the kids.

I am not seeing how this would work logistically. Groups of students would have been barricaded in place and there would have been no way to access a group to extract one child.

I am guessing that there might have been a time immediately after the shooter was killed that cops on the scene could have had the opportunity to find that their child was not one of the victims before other parents were able to verify if their kid was safe. I can see how it would have helped them focus on their difficult job so am not horrified if it happened.

[justme]

May 26, 2022 22:29:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 26, 2022 20:25:09 GMT -5 justme said:

Well I just got sick. Apparently the cops went in and got THEIR kids out of the school to make sure they were safe. Like I get they're your kids, but your job is to protect all the kids.

I am not seeing how this would work logistically. Groups of students would have been barricaded in place and there would have been no way to access a group to extract one child.

I am guessing that there might have been a time immediately after the shooter was killed that cops on the scene could have had the opportunity to find that their child was not one of the victims before other parents were able to verify if their kid was safe. I can see how it would have helped them focus on their difficult job so am not horrified if it happened.

I admit I'm going off tweets I saw... here's the tweet. I believe replies have the video, but admittedly I didn't thoroughly research.

Ok watched video interview... it's not an outright yea they did that, but it also sounds like some did? Not that explicit.

[billisonboard]

May 26, 2022 22:34:23 GMT -5 justme said:

May 26, 2022 22:29:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I am not seeing how this would work logistically. Groups of students would have been barricaded in place and there would have been no way to access a group to extract one child.

I am guessing that there might have been a time immediately after the shooter was killed that cops on the scene could have had the opportunity to find that their child was not one of the victims before other parents were able to verify if their kid was safe. I can see how it would have helped them focus on their difficult job so am not horrified if it happened.

I admit I'm going off tweets I saw... here's the tweet. I believe replies have the video, but admittedly I didn't thoroughly research.

Ok watched video interview... it's not an outright yea they did that, but it also sounds like some did? Not that explicit.

Thanks. I heard some "tried". Again the logistics make me question possibility of success. I can see a rogue attempt. Will be interesting to hear more over time.

[justme]

May 26, 2022 23:12:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 26, 2022 22:34:23 GMT -5 justme said:

I admit I'm going off tweets I saw... here's the tweet. I believe replies have the video, but admittedly I didn't thoroughly research.

Ok watched video interview... it's not an outright yea they did that, but it also sounds like some did? Not that explicit.

Thanks. I heard some "tried". Again the logistics make me question possibility of success. I can see a rogue attempt. Will be interesting to hear more over time.

Yea I've heard more than one mention of border patrol and each time I'm like "am I to believe the local cops called them in before sheriffs or neighboring pds?". So maybe they're the rogues but in uniforms so hard to tell?

I'll admit part of why I could see that is because 80 minutes between response and taking suspect down and "only" (in no way mean to down play the deaths) 19 victims. It just seems like not a lot of people if he was running free that long. But who knows, maybe the school was able to lock down on their own enough. It sounds like a lot of shit they have to unravel compared to other shootings in regards to the police.

[NastyWoman]

May 26, 2022 20:26:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the real question is that do we want our kids living in a terror state?

i mean, REALLY, SERIOUSLY, it is safer to send your kids to school in FUCKING GAZA than it is in many places in the US.  

aren't you tired of it, America?  are you really that lost in the fog of terror that it has become "just the way things are"?

Well, I for one am really glad my grandsons are not growing up here. I am fully aware that there is no guarantee that they will always be safe but their chances are better in Europe than they are here. They got lucky that Dutch laws changed enough since DS2 was born that it allowed dual citizenship for him and, as a result, for his kids. Their Texas born mom fully agrees that they are in a healthier place - we were discussing the need for life shooter exercises in US schools just very recently (prior to this latest shooting)

[djAdvocate]

i realize this is a disparate example, but i am going to give it, anyway.  hopefully bills will forgive me.

back in the 70's, Finland had a really poor public school system.  policymakers considered the school system important to the economy and the political life of Finland, so they decided to prioritize making Finland's schools the best in the world.  you can read about it HERE:

edpolicy.stanford.edu/library/publications/543

it wasn't magic.  it was hard work.  but now, they have done it.  Finnish Schools are the best on the planet.  

if a country puts it's mind to something, it can achieve it.  the requisites are threefold, however:

1) recognizing the problem
2) prioritizing the solution
3) surveying the world for how to achieve the goal.

i am not confident that the US can get past 1.  the GOP doesn't even seem to SEE THE PROBLEM.

it would be shameful if i was personally invested in it.  i am not.  some of us have been screaming about this shit for decades, and nobody seems to care.  so....

thoughts and prayers.

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 0:23:38 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 26, 2022 20:26:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the real question is that do we want our kids living in a terror state?

i mean, REALLY, SERIOUSLY, it is safer to send your kids to school in FUCKING GAZA than it is in many places in the US.  

aren't you tired of it, America?  are you really that lost in the fog of terror that it has become "just the way things are"?

Well, I for one am really glad my grandsons are not growing up here. I am fully aware that there is no guarantee that they will always be safe but their chances are better in Europe than they are here. They got lucky that Dutch laws changed enough since DS2 was born that it allowed dual citizenship for him and, as a result, for his kids. Their Texas born mom fully agrees that they are in a healthier place - we were discussing the need for life shooter exercises in US schools just very recently (prior to this latest shooting)

you could hardly do worse for your kids than raising them in the US.  i say this as a parent that raised his son in the US, ok?  i am not CRITICIZING.  i get why you did.  but we rank at the very bottom in the developed world.  our kids are dumber and less healthy on average than ALL of the remaining countries in the OECD.  that is just a fact.  

we should face it and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  

you know, the GOP used to claim to be pro-family.  they don't even make that claim any more.  which is good.  because clearly they are not. 

WHO IS?

[justme]

May 27, 2022 0:23:38 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

May 26, 2022 20:26:58 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the real question is that do we want our kids living in a terror state?

i mean, REALLY, SERIOUSLY, it is safer to send your kids to school in FUCKING GAZA than it is in many places in the US.  

aren't you tired of it, America?  are you really that lost in the fog of terror that it has become "just the way things are"?

Well, I for one am really glad my grandsons are not growing up here. I am fully aware that there is no guarantee that they will always be safe but their chances are better in Europe than they are here. They got lucky that Dutch laws changed enough since DS2 was born that it allowed dual citizenship for him and, as a result, for his kids. Their Texas born mom fully agrees that they are in a healthier place - we were discussing the need for life shooter exercises in US schools just very recently (prior to this latest shooting)

I'm headed to Italy and Greece at the end of the summer. If get a lizzie Mcguire moment but without the guy being an asshole...as I told my mom she doesn't have to worry about me being on 90 day fiance. Now the spin off the other way... if I was crazy that would fit lol.

[djAdvocate]

those are both civilized places for families.  paid parental leave.  lots of vacation time.  lower cost of living and healthcare.  less poverty and violence against kids.  you could do much worse.

most of us ARE doing worse.

[Spellbound454]

I guess we like to tidy things away by putting labels on such as "mentally ill".......... because we simply can't understand that would drive a person to do such a terrible thing.

The truth is that many of these committing heinous crimes are sane..... They are just evil people with an opportunity.


I have noticed that our institutions in the UK have become increasingly conscious of safety over the last 10 years.
There are barriers in the town centres masquerading as giant concrete flower pots...... Its so that attackers can't drive down the pavements (sidewalks) and mow over pedestrians.

and Schools, which used to be open, are now like Fort Knox.

Its inconvenient to have to go through gate after electronic gate if you want to move around the buildings... but we have to understand that there is a threat.

[happyhoix]

Reports of what happened keep changing. Now they’re saying the shooter wrecked his truck, fired bullets at a few people at a nearby funeral home - and then 12 minutes later, went into an unlocked door of the school. So he was walking around outside by himself at least 11 minutes, carrying his weapon.

Initially there was a school resource officer who bravely tried to confront the shooter - but now they’re saying there was no school resource officer at all.

Now they’re saying police officers immediately went into the building after the gunman, but when he shot at them, they retreated back outside and called for tactical assistance, which took an hour to get there. This is apparently outdated tactics with active shooters.

Many parents have come forward to say that they bypassed the cops outside and broke into the building to get their own kids out during that hour. Parents also said they were handcuffed outside the school, but the local cops are claiming they didn’t handcuff anyone.

Comparing what officials said 24 hours ago and what they’re saying now it’s like two different incidents happened - and still, at this point, there is no official timeline published, which is apparently very unusual. Very misleading statements from the officials so far, which makes this tragedy worse.

[happyhoix]

So an extra tragedy on top of this tragedy - the husband of one of the teachers who was killed (they were high school sweet hearts) had a heart attack and died yesterday, so four kids lost both parents out of this disaster.

Someone started a go fund me to raise 10,000 bucks for the four kids left behind, and it’s at 1.4 million right now.

[andi9899]

May 25, 2022 13:01:52 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

May 25, 2022 8:22:46 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

And how do they do that? 

I don't know if any of these criminals have lived after the assault but that would be one way.  Most die.

The Buffalo shooter is alive and well. As is the one whose parents bought him the gun. Which shooting was that again? There are so many I have a hard time keeping track.

All three of the mentioned shooters were known to be deeply disturbed and not mentally well. Perhaps we need paid therapists on staff at schools in this country as just one of the many things that need to change in this country to keep this from happening on a daily basis.

[justme]

I've lost count of the number of rounds they've said this person shot off in a few minutes. But sure, high power guns with large magazines aren't the problem.

He had 60 magazines and over 1000 rounds. Like who would need that much for recreation? Self protection? No one needs that much ammo at once and that many magazines.

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 4:42:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I guess we like to tidy things away by putting labels on such as "mentally ill".......... because we simply can't understand that would drive a person to do such a terrible thing.

The truth is that many of these committing heinous crimes are sane..... They are just evil people with an opportunity.


I have noticed that our institutions in the UK have become increasingly conscious of safety over the last 10 years.
There are barriers in the town centres masquerading as giant concrete flower pots...... Its so that attackers can't drive down the pavements (sidewalks) and mow over pedestrians.

and Schools, which used to be open, are now like Fort Knox.

Its inconvenient to have to go through gate after electronic gate if you want to move around the buildings... but we have to understand that there is a threat.

the UK is kind of half way between our stupid and civilized.
your prospects are better.

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 7:17:42 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Reports of what happened keep changing. Now they’re saying the shooter wrecked his truck, fired bullets at a few people at a nearby funeral home - and then 12 minutes later, went into an unlocked door of the school. So he was walking around outside by himself at least 11 minutes, carrying his weapon.

....which is totally normal, right?
#thingsihateabouttheUS

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 7:21:28 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

So an extra tragedy on top of this tragedy - the husband of one of the teachers who was killed (they were high school sweet hearts) had a heart attack and died yesterday, so four kids lost both parents out of this disaster.

Someone started a go fund me to raise 10,000 bucks for the four kids left behind, and it’s at 1.4 million right now.

Greg Abbot should be made ward of these kids.

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 11:09:46 GMT -5 justme said:

I've lost count of the number of rounds they've said this person shot off in a few minutes. But sure, high power guns with large magazines aren't the problem.

He had 60 magazines and over 1000 rounds. Like who would need that much for recreation? Self protection? No one needs that much ammo at once and that many magazines.

nobody NEEDS a fucking ASSAULT RIFLE, other than military.

and that is how these kids see themselves: soldiers.  for what Army?
the army of God or Hitler or Satan or something, i guess.

[justme]

May 27, 2022 11:18:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 27, 2022 11:09:46 GMT -5 justme said:

I've lost count of the number of rounds they've said this person shot off in a few minutes. But sure, high power guns with large magazines aren't the problem.

He had 60 magazines and over 1000 rounds. Like who would need that much for recreation? Self protection? No one needs that much ammo at once and that many magazines.

nobody NEEDS a fucking ASSAULT RIFLE, other than military.

and that is how these kids see themselves: soldiers.  for what Army?
the army of God or Hitler or Satan or something, i guess.

For sure. But even if you think that having the gun is a right, there's no logical explanation for anyone to need that much ammo except someone planning on killing people. As that Chris Rock quip goes - guns don't kill people bullets kill people. Mass shootings will be severely limited if you can only by 30 rounds.

I also kinda wanna be like the amendment says arms. It makes no mention if ammunition. You get 20 bullets at a time and can only buy more equal to the amount of shells you bring in.

[movingforward]

So just random personal thoughts here...I am not looking for anyone to agree or disagree. I'm just using the board to help me process things running through my head.

I am an atheist so I look at things more in a scientific way. Our brains are complex and the inner workings are still a mystery in many ways. Some are born without empathy, some get off on hurting others, some are easily influenced, easily angered, violent, etc. Some are products of their upbringing. Then for whatever reason we have people that live amongst us that are just evil and shouldn't be allowed around other human beings. I just recently watched the Wayne Gacy documentary on Netflix. Yowza...what an evil bastard he was...

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I'm not so sure this is a "new" problem. Throughout history we have always had people that, for whatever reason, do horrible things. Women used to be burned at the stake, people were actually bought and sold as property, Hitler convinced a large group of people to follow him, cult leaders have convinced large groups of people to off themselves. You get the picture...

So the more I try to process this, the more it really does become a gun control issue for me. The concept that every individual has the right to purchase a gun is baffling on so many levels. The fact that we are just accepting mass shootings is absolutely outrageous.

Okay, random rambling is over...

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 11:22:40 GMT -5 justme said:

May 27, 2022 11:18:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

nobody NEEDS a fucking ASSAULT RIFLE, other than military.

and that is how these kids see themselves: soldiers.  for what Army?
the army of God or Hitler or Satan or something, i guess.

For sure. But even if you think that having the gun is a right, there's no logical explanation for anyone to need that much ammo except someone planning on killing people. As that Chris Rock quip goes - guns don't kill people bullets kill people. Mass shootings will be severely limited if you can only by 30 rounds.

I also kinda wanna be like the amendment says arms. It makes no mention if ammunition. You get 20 bullets at a time and can only buy more equal to the amount of shells you bring in.

my approach has always been the opposite of this.

if i have the right to bear arms, i want anti-aircraft weapons.

[djAdvocate]

May 27, 2022 11:25:15 GMT -5 movingforward said:

So just random personal thoughts here...I am not looking for anyone to agree or disagree. I'm just using the board to help me process things running through my head.

I am an atheist so I look at things more in a scientific way. Our brains are complex and the inner workings are still a mystery in many ways. Some are born without empathy, some get off on hurting others, some are easily influenced, easily angered, violent, etc. Some are products of their upbringing. Then for whatever reason we have people that live amongst us that are just evil and shouldn't be allowed around other human beings. I just recently what the Wayne Gracy documentary on Netflix. Yowza...what an evil bastard he was...

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I'm not so sure this is a "new" problem. Throughout history we have always had people that, for whatever reason, do horrible things. Women used to be burned at the stake, people were actually bought and sold as property, Hitler convinced a large group of people to follow him, cult leaders have convinced large groups of people to off themselves. You get the picture...

So the more I try to process this, the more it really does become a gun control issue for me. The concept that every individual has the right to purchase a gun is baffling on so many levels. The fact that we are just accepting mass shootings is absolutely outrageous.

Okay, random rambling is over...

i agree.  the mental health issues have always been there.
but let's consider the mental health of America -vs- other countries for a second.
why are we so sick?  i think there are answers to that.  not pleasant ones, but answers.

[billisonboard]

May 27, 2022 11:36:02 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 27, 2022 11:22:40 GMT -5 justme said:

For sure. But even if you think that having the gun is a right, there's no logical explanation for anyone to need that much ammo except someone planning on killing people. As that Chris Rock quip goes - guns don't kill people bullets kill people. Mass shootings will be severely limited if you can only by 30 rounds.

I also kinda wanna be like the amendment says arms. It makes no mention if ammunition. You get 20 bullets at a time and can only buy more equal to the amount of shells you bring in.

my approach has always been the opposite of this.

if i have the right to bear arms, i want anti-aircraft weapons.

And I want some anti-tank weapons, I mean, being necessary to the security of a free State and all.

[movingforward]

May 27, 2022 11:38:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 27, 2022 11:25:15 GMT -5 movingforward said:

So just random personal thoughts here...I am not looking for anyone to agree or disagree. I'm just using the board to help me process things running through my head.

I am an atheist so I look at things more in a scientific way. Our brains are complex and the inner workings are still a mystery in many ways. Some are born without empathy, some get off on hurting others, some are easily influenced, easily angered, violent, etc. Some are products of their upbringing. Then for whatever reason we have people that live amongst us that are just evil and shouldn't be allowed around other human beings. I just recently what the Wayne Gracy documentary on Netflix. Yowza...what an evil bastard he was...

Anyway, the more I think about it the more I'm not so sure this is a "new" problem. Throughout history we have always had people that, for whatever reason, do horrible things. Women used to be burned at the stake, people were actually bought and sold as property, Hitler convinced a large group of people to follow him, cult leaders have convinced large groups of people to off themselves. You get the picture...

So the more I try to process this, the more it really does become a gun control issue for me. The concept that every individual has the right to purchase a gun is baffling on so many levels. The fact that we are just accepting mass shootings is absolutely outrageous.

Okay, random rambling is over...

i agree.  the mental health issues have always been there.
but let's consider the mental health of America -vs- other countries for a second.
why are we so sick?  i think there are answers to that.  not pleasant ones, but answers.

True