what exactly is "woke"

[Opti]

May 11, 2022 9:19:00 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

May 11, 2022 8:57:44 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

I'm a hugger but I also believe body autonomy trumps any desire for human contact. Especially when friends/relatives tell their kids to give Aunt Meggie a hug, I always tell the kid "only if you want you, you have control over your own body."

If I meet someone new, I'm not gonna hug, that's weird and icky. But as I get to know you I will take my cues from you and I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're comfortable with. I have people who get big hugs, people who get side/shoulder hugs, people who get fist bumps, people who get an enthusiastic wave and no body contact. I will always accept and happily give high fives.

Even as a huggy person I have days that I don't want contact, and Covid has definitely cut down on my hugging tendencies.

It all comes down to respecting others and their comfort. I never want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's my responsibility to read the cues.

I would get so mad at the church people who insisted on hugging or otherwise touching my kids then called me disrespectful when.I refused to make them.do it.

You have no right to touch my kid. My kids have a right to body autonomy. It sends the wrong message to children and especially girls that unwanted touch must be tolerated or you are being rude.

I don't care that your generation didn't believe children had the right to be their own people and I don't buy into.the idea that every random.adult is supposed to be able to demand stuff from my kid and they better hop to it.

I.do teach social manners. We're working on Gwen's social anxiety right now.

But that does not and will never extend to touching without consent. It's also critically important they know I have their back in case God forbid something does happen. Making them kiss the random old fart doesn't accomplish that.

Sorry to hear that. My former church was big on hugging and I had to remember there was one person who really hated hugs. I like hugging people I like, but I would never call anyone disrespectful for not wanting one. Everyone has their comfort level. I don't think I've ever hugged a child unless they wanted to be hugged. Too many memories of being cajoled into letting my one grandmother hug and kiss us goodbye and sometimes hello. 

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2022 11:49:42 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

May 11, 2022 11:45:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

What age?

13

Brutally(?) honest response. IM(not so)HO, at that age it doesn't matter. She either has internalized that she doesn't have the right to say no to physical contact or she has compartmentalized you as an exception.

[Deleted]

May 11, 2022 9:14:11 GMT -5 giramomma said:

All this discussion made me think of "The Ladder of Inference."

www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTMC_91.htm

I don't know if you all have heard of it or not. If you have, apologies. If not, I find it to be a really good tool.

To me, using a tool like this to check your biases is also being woke.

Thank you for sharing that piece, it will help me check out some upcoming decisions I must make and maybe help me to keep on track overall.  

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I suppose I should productively contribute to this conversation, but in lieu of that…

Stolen from [mention]oped [/mention] ‘s FB feed.

[stillmovingforward]

As an anti hugger with black, white, straight, and bi children, I can't like this enough.
I work with a hugger. After working together a while, we had a widely exciting project complete and she asked if she could hug me. I said no. She answered 'I'm a hugger but I get that some people aren't so I always ask.' She's never touched me. I appreciate her asking as well as her respectful response to my no. I will always be happy to work with her.

[Spellbound454]

May 8, 2022 16:10:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 6, 2022 17:05:33 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

This is the divisiveness I'm talking about. How is this good for society?
You are attacking me because you don't understand what I'm saying.... and anyone who strays from the preferred line must be attacked.
In your mind this cannot be discussed.

Lots, look it up.
What do you think the ideology is? Who do you think Antifa are and why have they taken over?

marxiststudies.blog.yorku.ca/2020/08/antifa-and-the-marxist-left-some-questions-and-answers/

www.dailysignal.com/2020/08/02/how-wokeness-is-a-product-of-marxism/

Yes...... and I was offering a solution.

I don't doubt the good intention of people who initially got involved.

I would certainly be supportive of their message ................but in its current state wokeness has turned in to something nasty.

and we need something else.

there is probably considerable overlap between Marxists and Antifa, because both are extremely questioning positions.  however, it is possible to be a Marxist and authoritarian, and it is possible to be a capitalist and be Anti-Fascist.  so, i think there is a Venn Diagram here, and the overlap is far less than complete.

i am a liberal and i am an anti-fascist, but i am no Marxist.

This is interesting.
How many people in your country actually are fascist in its definitive sense?......... because I suspect its a fringe group (or it is here ie quite rare)


The vast majority of people here, are aligned centre or centre left. They just go about their ordinary lives and mean no-one any harm.

People tripping over themselves to prove that they are not fascists just because they are not on the far left, seems absurd.

Its the same hue and cry for Rascism.....and because of the alignment of the far left the assumption is, that if you are not a proponent of the far left and their questionable policies, you must be Rascist,

but the vast majority of people in this Country don't mean anyone any harm...... and they never did.

That's not to say more couldn't be done to level the playing field so that people have equal opportunities for their lives.
Its heart breaking to think that citizens are feeling left out when they have every right to expect the advantages that living in this Country have to offer

but the causes are complicated such as :- living in deprived areas, gang culture, absent fathers, not enough strong roles models, not enough youth facilities, educational aspiration and attainment, poor housing, lack of apprenticeships and mentoring.

I reckon, taking steps to address the above will be far more productive in helping people feel they have a bigger stake in society..... than anything else

[Spellbound454]

May 13, 2022 19:12:08 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

I suppose I should productively contribute to this conversation, but in lieu of that…

Stolen from [mention]oped [/mention] ‘s FB feed.

hmm, so everyone who isn't far left marxist "woke"......... is illiterate?

As well as rascist, fascist and all the rest of it.

[raeoflyte]

May 21, 2022 7:15:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

May 8, 2022 16:10:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

there is probably considerable overlap between Marxists and Antifa, because both are extremely questioning positions.  however, it is possible to be a Marxist and authoritarian, and it is possible to be a capitalist and be Anti-Fascist.  so, i think there is a Venn Diagram here, and the overlap is far less than complete.

i am a liberal and i am an anti-fascist, but i am no Marxist.

This is interesting.
How many people in your country actually are fascist in its definitive sense?......... because I suspect its a fringe group (or it is here ie quite rare)


The vast majority of people here, are aligned centre or centre left. They just go about their ordinary lives and mean no-one any harm.

People tripping over themselves to prove that they are not fascists just because they are not on the far left, seems absurd.

Its the same hue and cry for Rascism.....and because of the alignment of the far left the assumption is, that if you are not a proponent of the far left and their questionable policies, you must be Rascist,

but the vast majority of people in this Country don't mean anyone any harm...... and they never did.

That's not to say more couldn't be done to level the playing field so that people have equal opportunities for their lives.
Its heart breaking to think that citizens are feeling left out when they have every right to expect the advantages that living in this Country have to offer

but the causes are complicated such as :- living in deprived areas, gang culture, absent fathers, not enough strong roles models, not enough youth facilities, educational aspiration and attainment, poor housing, lack of apprenticeships and mentoring.

I reckon, taking steps to address the above will be far more productive in helping people feel they have a bigger stake in society..... than anything else

Not meaning harm doesn't mean we're not benefitting from a system designed to help white people and suppress people of color.

Obviously neither myself or my parents enslaved anyone. We had no part in devising our current criminal justice system. I can 100% say that I have never participated in red or green lining.

Not being responsible for doesn't mean that those things didn't happen and aren't still negatively impacting minorities. And by default, I as a white person have benefitted from those systems.

I am responsible for the world I've inherited. I'm responsible for the results of those systems enacted decades and centuries before I was born and doing what I can to end the effects of those systems. I can't fix it on my own just like I can't undue decades of climate change. But saying that's just how it's always been is lazy and irresponsible.

[TheOtherMe]

Being a liberal does not make me think everyone who doesn't believe the things I do is a racist.

Watching their behavior makes me know they are racist.  It's very easy to see.  Yes, I live in a small town and most of the people here are racist.  As far as I know, there is not one Black person living in this town.  I don't think a Black person would be welcome.

High school graduation is today.  If there are 5 Black students in the class of over 400 kids, I would be shocked.  

These people have no idea of what systemic racism is and don't want to know.

[Spellbound454]

May 21, 2022 7:25:06 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 21, 2022 7:15:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

This is interesting.
How many people in your country actually are fascist in its definitive sense?......... because I suspect its a fringe group (or it is here ie quite rare)


The vast majority of people here, are aligned centre or centre left. They just go about their ordinary lives and mean no-one any harm.

People tripping over themselves to prove that they are not fascists just because they are not on the far left, seems absurd.

Its the same hue and cry for Rascism.....and because of the alignment of the far left the assumption is, that if you are not a proponent of the far left and their questionable policies, you must be Rascist,

but the vast majority of people in this Country don't mean anyone any harm...... and they never did.

That's not to say more couldn't be done to level the playing field so that people have equal opportunities for their lives.
Its heart breaking to think that citizens are feeling left out when they have every right to expect the advantages that living in this Country have to offer

but the causes are complicated such as :- living in deprived areas, gang culture, absent fathers, not enough strong roles models, not enough youth facilities, educational aspiration and attainment, poor housing, lack of apprenticeships and mentoring.

I reckon, taking steps to address the above will be far more productive in helping people feel they have a bigger stake in society..... than anything else

Not meaning harm doesn't mean we're not benefitting from a system designed to help white people and suppress people of color.

Obviously neither myself or my parents enslaved anyone. We had no part in devising our current criminal justice system. I can 100% say that I have never participated in red or green lining.

Not being responsible for doesn't mean that those things didn't happen and aren't still negatively impacting minorities. And by default, I as a white person have benefitted from those systems.

I am responsible for the world I've inherited. I'm responsible for the results of those systems enacted decades and centuries before I was born and doing what I can to end the effects of those systems. I can't fix it on my own just like I can't undue decades of climate change. But saying that's just how it's always been is lazy and irresponsible.

Yes I agree .......... which is why I suggested addressing the real problems which will give people the most impact.

Everyone should be able to achieve whatever they want in a country with equal opportunities.

[Spellbound454]

 Being a liberal does not make me think everyone who doesn't believe the things I do is a racist.

The "Woke" movement... is not Liberal.

I'm Liberal too..... signed up and paid member of the Liberal Democrats.

[raeoflyte]

May 21, 2022 12:51:54 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

May 21, 2022 7:25:06 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Not meaning harm doesn't mean we're not benefitting from a system designed to help white people and suppress people of color.

Obviously neither myself or my parents enslaved anyone. We had no part in devising our current criminal justice system. I can 100% say that I have never participated in red or green lining.

Not being responsible for doesn't mean that those things didn't happen and aren't still negatively impacting minorities. And by default, I as a white person have benefitted from those systems.

I am responsible for the world I've inherited. I'm responsible for the results of those systems enacted decades and centuries before I was born and doing what I can to end the effects of those systems. I can't fix it on my own just like I can't undue decades of climate change. But saying that's just how it's always been is lazy and irresponsible.

Yes I agree .......... which is why I suggested addressing the real problems which will give people the most impact.

Everyone should be able to achieve whatever they want in a country with equal opportunities.

Systemic racism created those issues.

[Spellbound454]

May 21, 2022 13:41:40 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 21, 2022 12:51:54 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Yes I agree .......... which is why I suggested addressing the real problems which will give people the most impact.

Everyone should be able to achieve whatever they want in a country with equal opportunities.

Systemic racism created those issues.

Its not that simple ....... There are loads of reasons that people aren't getting their fair share and feeling left out.

Most people in our Countries are not rascist ... They mean no harm to anyone and don't really understand the accusation.

Lets have real progressive ideas which at least have a chance of people feeling their needs are being met.

and ditch the politics ... which is never going to work.

[raeoflyte]

May 21, 2022 15:24:01 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

May 21, 2022 13:41:40 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Systemic racism created those issues.

Its not that simple ....... There are loads of reasons that people aren't getting their fair share and feeling left out.

Most people in our Countries are not rascist ... They mean no harm to anyone and don't really understand the accusation.

Lets have real progressive ideas which at least have a chance of people feeling their needs are being met.

and ditch the politics ... which is never going to work.

Your the one bringing up politics not me.

Woke means knowing that despite the books I've read, the work I've done and will continue to do - I am still a racist. I acknowledge my bias and am working on letting it go, teaching my kids better, and learning how to listen.

[raeoflyte]

Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism.

[nidena]

Spellbound454, you would benefit from watching the documentary 13th.  The. U.S. penal system was designed with racism as its foundation and further manipulated 40-50 years ago to further exploit that foundation.

I would also recommend the book Chokehold and the one I've already recommended: The New Jim Crow.

Of course, you would only benefit if you opt to not dig in your heels that racism is not the problem that it is.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 21, 2022 16:16:20 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism.

I don't recommend coming to Iowa then our representatives are rabidly trying to erase anything that could be perceived as making a white kid uncomfortable.

Heaven forbid you have to step out of your comfort zone.

From listening to Gwen though their attempts aren't working. It's called the internet.

But they sure are trying there have been talks about going so far as to ban books in public libraries.

Oh but it's woke liberals who are a danger to society.

[Deleted]

Here in Texas books are being removed from both school and public libraries, incredibly ignorant and narrow-minded people are being elected to school boards, and minority students, including those from the LGBTQ community, are being marginalized every day. And the governor tries to eliminate public school funding for non-citizens. No, that's not racist. It's just business as usual.

[nidena]

May 21, 2022 17:35:39 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

Here in Texas books are being removed from both school and public libraries, incredibly ignorant and narrow-minded people are being elected to school boards, and minority students, including those from the LGBTQ community, are being marginalized every day. And the governor tries to eliminate public school funding for non-citizens. No, that's not racist. It's just business as usual.

It's just "protecting hard-working Americans", right?

[Deleted]

May 21, 2022 17:38:02 GMT -5 nidena said:

May 21, 2022 17:35:39 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

Here in Texas books are being removed from both school and public libraries, incredibly ignorant and narrow-minded people are being elected to school boards, and minority students, including those from the LGBTQ community, are being marginalized every day. And the governor tries to eliminate public school funding for non-citizens. No, that's not racist. It's just business as usual.

It's just "protecting hard-working Americans", right?

Yeah, protecting them from "replacement".  While every valid and truthful economic metric shows the critical financial contributions made by our immigrant community, not to mention cultural contributions.  But if you refuse to validate another person's humanity and culture, it's easy to ignore their contributions isn't it? 

[TheOtherMe]

May 21, 2022 16:16:20 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism.

I acknowledge both my white privilege and my racism.  I have learned and changed but I am by no means perfect.  I will not be the person I wish I could be by the time I leave this earth.  Part of that is because in the US, it looks to me like society is moving backwards.

[Spellbound454]

 Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism

I'm not denying racism........ I'm denying I'm the one who is doing it. I don't have any ill will towards anyone.......Ever.
....and am respectful of people, whatever their circumstances.

I do appreciate that there are obstacles that get in the way of people making progress... and have made suggestions as to how the field can be levelled, so that people who are not getting a fair chance can achieve what they deserve.


As for kids we teach them about equality of expression, religion, race... as outlined in HR
and we teach them about prejudice.

Children just take each other as they find them.... as most of us do.

  But if you refuse to validate another person's humanity and culture,

Who is doing that?


You seem to put one of these labels on me again ........ just because I'm not towing the far left line.

Don't kid yourself that this view is Liberal. Its extremist ... and you don't solve problems by creating division.

I still maintain its because of the involvement of far left Marxist groups ......... which is not a political belief that has ever worked.

[Spellbound454]

Marxists like to create division because the ultimate goal is revolution.

As an outsider your country already looks to lack cohesion.......... Just saying

[nidena]

May 22, 2022 7:26:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism

I'm not denying racism........ I'm denying I'm the one who is doing it. I don't have any ill will towards anyone.......Ever.
....and am respectful of people, whatever their circumstances.

I do appreciate that there are obstacles that get in the way of people making progress... and have made suggestions as to how the field can be levelled, so that people who are not getting a fair chance can achieve what they deserve.


As for kids we teach them about equality of expression, religion, race... as outlined in HR
and we teach them about prejudice.

Children just take each other as they find them.... as most of us do.

  But if you refuse to validate another person's humanity and culture,

Who is doing that?


You seem to put one of these labels on me again ........ just because I'm not towing the far left line.

Don't kid yourself that this view is Liberal. Its extremist ... and you don't solve problems by creating division.

I still maintain its because of the involvement of far left Marxist groups ......... which is not a political belief that has ever worked.

My racist, biased cousins would say the same thing, considering they live in a town that is 95% white.

But it's not just about being blatant in the racism.  It's about noticing the ways the whole system of life is designed for whites...from makeup colors to band-aids to how the "little lies" are white to how tar and feather was a common phrase to how people lost their shit when the company decided to rebrand Aunt Jemima to how it's only been in the last 12 months that we've ever seen a drawing of a Black fetus in the womb.

Racism and bias are nuanced, more often than not.  It's not always sheets and "strange fruit."

[raeoflyte]

May 22, 2022 7:26:51 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Its terrifying to me to see youth educators deny racism

I'm not denying racism........ I'm denying I'm the one who is doing it. I don't have any ill will towards anyone.......Ever.
....and am respectful of people, whatever their circumstances.

I do appreciate that there are obstacles that get in the way of people making progress... and have made suggestions as to how the field can be levelled, so that people who are not getting a fair chance can achieve what they deserve.


As for kids we teach them about equality of expression, religion, race... as outlined in HR
and we teach them about prejudice.

Children just take each other as they find them.... as most of us do.

  But if you refuse to validate another person's humanity and culture,

Who is doing that?


You seem to put one of these labels on me again ........ just because I'm not towing the far left line.

Don't kid yourself that this view is Liberal. Its extremist ... and you don't solve problems by creating division.

I still maintain its because of the involvement of far left Marxist groups ......... which is not a political belief that has ever worked.

An educator that believes racism is only displayed by intent to harm is denying racism.

You're still the one bringing in politics. Yes the US is in upheaval, but that happens when one group is trying to take away rights and the affected group fights back.

[nidena]

Last I checked/read/saw, many problems were solved by creating division.

Child labor laws, overtime laws, hell even switching daylight savings time was done by raising a rukus in various formats.

Let's not forget all the fighting that RBG and people like her did on behalf of creating fair gender laws.

BTW, Spellbound454, you make excellent attempts at gaslighting but it's just not a good look.

[Spellbound454]

 An educator that believes racism is only displayed by intent to harm is denying racism.

What other sort of racism is there?

Its is by definition harmful.

If you have no interest in harming anyone, treat everyone equally and respectfully and want the best for people......... how is that harmful?

 You're still the one bringing in politics

Yes that's what is intrinsically wound around this.

Ditch the politics and there would be a lot more interest and agreement.

 gaslighting, It's not always sheets and "strange fruit."

Is this from the current memo of wokist insider speak

because I have no idea what this means.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2022 16:42:20 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 An educator that believes racism is only displayed by intent to harm is denying racism.

What other sort of racism is there?

Its is by definition harmful.

If you have no interest in harming anyone, treat everyone equally and respectfully and want the best for people......... how is that harmful?

 You're still the one bringing in politics

Yes that's what is intrinsically wound around this.

Ditch the politics and there would be a lot more interest and agreement.

 gaslighting, It's not always sheets and "strange fruit."

Is this from the current memo of wokist insider speak

because I have no idea what this means.

I believe “sheets” refers to the KKK and white supremacists and “strange fruit” refers to black people hung from trees. In good ol’ Amerikkka. 

[raeoflyte]

May 24, 2022 16:42:20 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 An educator that believes racism is only displayed by intent to harm is denying racism.

What other sort of racism is there?

Its is by definition harmful.

If you have no interest in harming anyone, treat everyone equally and respectfully and want the best for people......... how is that harmful?

 You're still the one bringing in politics

Yes that's what is intrinsically wound around this.

Ditch the politics and there would be a lot more interest and agreement.

 gaslighting, It's not always sheets and "strange fruit."

Is this from the current memo of wokist insider speak

because I have no idea what this means.

I have a hard time believing "What other types of racism is there" isn't an intentionally ignorant question, especially from someone insusting its not a problem. But in case you just don't know.

www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2021/10/black-students-harsh-discipline

[raeoflyte]

www.nytimes.com/2020/10/01/us/politics/black-girls-school-discipline.html