what exactly is "woke"

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 15:25:23 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

I certainly wish they had provided more background here.  I agree with Professor A about the oppressor role.  What was the point of the article overall?  

The article was meant to report on a discussion on racism and I think it was after George Floyd's murder.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 15:02:06 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Part of the issue is it puts the POC in.a spot where they now feel to difuse things they must console the white person. They must stop talking about their experience and their topic as the white person's feelings now yet again take center stage.

From what I've read it can be a form of microagression.

It's okay to feel strong emotions but maybe excuse yourself if you are going to publicly start crying. Reflect on why you had that response and come back later to talk.

Let the focus remain on the talker and current subject. Don't turn it into a situation where your discomfort becomes center stage.

I can understand that point of view- keeping the focus on what Professor A was trying to say rather than taking center stage yourself- but it almost makes Professor A free to say anything she wants and then blame the object of her remarks for being "too sensitive".

[pulmonarymd]

It is no different than if a man says something that upsets a women, she then cries, and he says “I didn’t mean anything by it, you are too sensitive”. If you don’t excuse the man, why should that professor be excused without knowing what she says. Professor A does not have a license to be a jerk just because she is a POC

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 9, 2022 15:39:10 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 9, 2022 15:02:06 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Part of the issue is it puts the POC in.a spot where they now feel to difuse things they must console the white person. They must stop talking about their experience and their topic as the white person's feelings now yet again take center stage.

From what I've read it can be a form of microagression.

It's okay to feel strong emotions but maybe excuse yourself if you are going to publicly start crying. Reflect on why you had that response and come back later to talk.

Let the focus remain on the talker and current subject. Don't turn it into a situation where your discomfort becomes center stage.

I can understand that point of view- keeping the focus on what Professor A was trying to say rather than taking center stage yourself- but it almost makes Professor A free to say anything she wants and then blame the object of her remarks for being "too sensitive".

But as a white person I'm free, and conservatives are working hard on encoding it, to say whatever I want who cares if it makes someone uncomfortable. I have the right to free speech, or I'm telling it like it is. or people just can't take a joke.

A person of color should be able to discuss topics that make me uncomfortable or upset without having to worry about my comfort or feelings just as I have the freedom to do so.

That I can halt a lecture by letting some salt water drop out of my eyes AND get am article written about it shows how powerful a weapon my tears are.

So yeah I'd keep that in mind. I admit I'm a crier. I excuse myself when it happens in an inappropriate moment. It's not those people's job to manage my feelings or adjust the situation to my comfort.

This is what is fueling the drive to ban books, CRT and is bleeding into.LGBTQ issues, women's issues and the holocaust.

God forbid those of us with privilege sit quiet in our discomfort for a few minutes while we learn something.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Without context I'm not jumping on the condemn Professor A bandwagon.

She is correct that a white woman's tears are too often used to turn the table and shut down conversation or worse. Our tears have been used to destroy entire cities.



Now I can say YOU oppressed me by making me feel bad. You're the bad one. I'm the victim.



It robs people of their voice and gives me back the power.



There is nothing wrong with strong emotions but that doesn't automatically make the person who caused you to have them a jersey. It doesn'tmake the personhavingthem right

Yes anyone of any color can be a jerk but that's not what Professor A was trying to get at based on what limited information there is.

The fact we rushed to she's the jerk now, save the white woman's feelings proves her point.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 14:58:09 GMT -5 nidena said:

May 9, 2022 14:34:07 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I'd like to ask for opinions on something that rubbed me the wrong way. It was a year or so ago- an article in my college newsletter about a gathering of female professors of various ethnicities to talk about racism.

Professor A was a POC. She was talking with Professor B, who was white, and said something that upset Professor B so much that Professor B began to cry. Professor A stated that Professor B had turned her (Professor A) into the oppressor by reacting with tears.

They didn't say what Professor A's remark was so I have no idea how hurtful or offensive it would be to the average audience but I think Professor A was off-base in her reaction to Professor B's tears.

Anyone?

The power of white-women's tears is pretty well-known in the anti-racism arena.

We don't like to be made to feel uncomfortable so we cry which then puts everyone in our vicinity into consolation mode rather than just letting us sit in our discomfort.  It's a method of deflection and takes the onus off us for our mistakes and biases.

It doesn't matter what Professor A said.  It could have been as innocuous as "Please say Black instead of POC when talking about Black people."

I have a question and this is probably the only place on earth I can ask it.  Sometimes a program or meeting will focus strictly on issues between blacks and whites in America.  Sometimes the group or topic is broader, including issues such as anti-Asian hostility, anti-Hispanic hate speech, transphobia, anti-Muslim speech, violence against Native Americans, anti-Semitic flyers and posters etc.  I am unclear when I should use what.  Recently, I used "black" and was told that was dismissive of the unique experience of being black in America and that I should say "African-American".  I'm vaguely uncomfortable with POC because it feels like I'm taking a shortcut across a lot of racial stories.  

As I write this, the thought comes to me that there is a lot of different folks suffering hate and violence, including women and members of the LGBTQ community, and it's a damn shame we need a word or words to embrace them all.

One of the things I will take away from the 1619 Project that I'm reading is their choice of "enslaved person" rather than "slave" is dehumanizing and removes the guilt of the oppressor from the picture.  No one just becomes a "slave", they are enslaved by another.  Words do matter, don't they?

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 15:51:22 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 9, 2022 14:58:09 GMT -5 nidena said:

The power of white-women's tears is pretty well-known in the anti-racism arena.

We don't like to be made to feel uncomfortable so we cry which then puts everyone in our vicinity into consolation mode rather than just letting us sit in our discomfort.  It's a method of deflection and takes the onus off us for our mistakes and biases.

It doesn't matter what Professor A said.  It could have been as innocuous as "Please say Black instead of POC when talking about Black people."

I have a question and this is probably the only place on earth I can ask it.  Sometimes a program or meeting will focus strictly on issues between blacks and whites in America.  Sometimes the group or topic is broader, including issues such as anti-Asian hostility, anti-Hispanic hate speech, transphobia, anti-Muslim speech, violence against Native Americans, anti-Semitic flyers and posters etc.  I am unclear when I should use what.  Recently, I used "black" and was told that was dismissive of the unique experience of being black in America and that I should say "African-American".  I'm vaguely uncomfortable with POC because it feels like I'm taking a shortcut across a lot of racial stories.  

As I write this, the thought comes to me that there is a lot of different folks suffering hate and violence, including women and members of the LGBTQ community, and it's a damn shame we need a word or words to embrace them all.

One of the things I will take away from the 1619 Project that I'm reading is their choice of "enslaved person" rather than "slave" is dehumanizing and removes the guilt of the oppressor from the picture.  No one just becomes a "slave", they are enslaved by another.  Words do matter, don't they?

I’m just one person and never really got on the “woke” wagon….. I prefer you call me Black instead of African American. Even though my skin is not actually black. To ME, African Americans are people who moved here from Africa on their own, because this is where they wanted to live. They at least know where in Africa they came from. I do not. So how can I claim myself as an African, when I have no idea where on that huge continent, my ancestors might have come from?

I am an American who just happens to be what we call black. Whoever’s nerves get upset because I am an American should blame their ancestors, who brought my ancestors here because they thought it was ok to try to “own” another human being and act like the animals they tried to pretend their slaves were.

I think the term “POC” came about to include other minorities that are discriminated against and mistreated in this society, just because their skin is some shade of brown.

 And YES! Words do matter!

[daisylu]

May 9, 2022 15:18:48 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 9, 2022 12:11:08 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

a person is accused of racist, sexist, or homophobe speech, or unwanted touching (ala Biden), without any prior accusations.  rather than posting on Facebook that this person is a sex offender/predator or a racist (outing and ostracizing the individual), he or she should be taken privately aside and given the opportunity to address the offense.  

agree or disagree?

As much as I find racist, sexist, or homophobic speech offensive, there is a certain gap between those actions and unwanted touching for me.  I embrace the idea of calling-in as a possibly effective mechanism in some instances of speech.  However, I personally could not embrace that approach for actual touching.  This is 2022 and I doubt there is anyone on the planet so dense that they don't realize exactly what they are doing when they touch another person against their will.  Because of my personal experiences, this is a hard line item for me.  

Depends on how you define touching another person against their will. I live in an area south enough where it is common for people to touch you when they are talking to you - on the hand, shoulder, arm, leg if sitting down, etc. I have long been uncomfortable with this and often explain it to people. People who I know and work with are well aware of this, so they do not do it. But I still have to explain to new people I meet that I consider this unacceptable. It is hard to know people's limits. Would the first time be considered "against my will"? Obviously, if they do it after they've been warned it's a major issue. At least to me.

[nidena]

May 9, 2022 15:51:22 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 9, 2022 14:58:09 GMT -5 nidena said:

The power of white-women's tears is pretty well-known in the anti-racism arena.

We don't like to be made to feel uncomfortable so we cry which then puts everyone in our vicinity into consolation mode rather than just letting us sit in our discomfort.  It's a method of deflection and takes the onus off us for our mistakes and biases.

It doesn't matter what Professor A said.  It could have been as innocuous as "Please say Black instead of POC when talking about Black people."

I have a question and this is probably the only place on earth I can ask it.  Sometimes a program or meeting will focus strictly on issues between blacks and whites in America.  Sometimes the group or topic is broader, including issues such as anti-Asian hostility, anti-Hispanic hate speech, transphobia, anti-Muslim speech, violence against Native Americans, anti-Semitic flyers and posters etc.  I am unclear when I should use what.  Recently, I used "black" and was told that was dismissive of the unique experience of being black in America and that I should say "African-American".  I'm vaguely uncomfortable with POC because it feels like I'm taking a shortcut across a lot of racial stories.  

As I write this, the thought comes to me that there is a lot of different folks suffering hate and violence, including women and members of the LGBTQ community, and it's a damn shame we need a word or words to embrace them all.

One of the things I will take away from the 1619 Project that I'm reading is their choice of "enslaved person" rather than "slave" is dehumanizing and removes the guilt of the oppressor from the picture.  No one just becomes a "slave", they are enslaved by another.  Words do matter, don't they?

I follow a large number of DEI folx on LinkedIn.

One thing that the Black people in that collective agree on, in their individual stories, is: If you mean Black, say Black.  It's not a naughty word.  It doesn't need to be whispered.  Black people know they're Black so call them such.

If you're referring to the broader group and mean all non-white people, Persons of Color is an acceptable umbrella but it's important to recognize that each of the ethnicities and races under that umbrella have vastly different experiences that they bring to the table.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 17:49:51 GMT -5 daisylu said:

May 9, 2022 15:18:48 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

As much as I find racist, sexist, or homophobic speech offensive, there is a certain gap between those actions and unwanted touching for me.  I embrace the idea of calling-in as a possibly effective mechanism in some instances of speech.  However, I personally could not embrace that approach for actual touching.  This is 2022 and I doubt there is anyone on the planet so dense that they don't realize exactly what they are doing when they touch another person against their will.  Because of my personal experiences, this is a hard line item for me.  

Depends on how you define touching another person against their will. I live in an area south enough where it is common for people to touch you when they are talking to you - on the hand, shoulder, arm, leg if sitting down, etc. I have long been uncomfortable with this and often explain it to people. People who I know and work with are well aware of this, so they do not do it. But I still have to explain to new people I meet that I consider this unacceptable. It is hard to know people's limits. Would the first time be considered "against my will"? Obviously, if they do it after they've been warned it's a major issue. At least to me.

Yes, in the South there's a lot of that sort of touching and I'm mostly okay with it, but I never offer a hug that is not offered to me first.  It's the other kind, the person of any gender identity that touches in what I would call a sexual way, copping a feel, kissing, groping.  Especially people who consider themselves in a superior position such as employers, ministers, etc.   

[daisylu]

May 9, 2022 18:37:23 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 9, 2022 17:49:51 GMT -5 daisylu said:

Depends on how you define touching another person against their will. I live in an area south enough where it is common for people to touch you when they are talking to you - on the hand, shoulder, arm, leg if sitting down, etc. I have long been uncomfortable with this and often explain it to people. People who I know and work with are well aware of this, so they do not do it. But I still have to explain to new people I meet that I consider this unacceptable. It is hard to know people's limits. Would the first time be considered "against my will"? Obviously, if they do it after they've been warned it's a major issue. At least to me.

Yes, in the South there's a lot of that sort of touching and I'm mostly okay with it, but I never offer a hug that is not offered to me first.  It's the other kind, the person of any gender identity that touches in what I would call a sexual way, copping a feel, kissing, groping.  Especially people who consider themselves in a superior position such as employers, ministers, etc.   

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I have issues with people touching me, most likely because I have had DD boobs since 6th grade. I do not hug because of it, and I was groped in the seventh grade. Being a female is tough.

[djAdvocate]

May 9, 2022 15:18:48 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 9, 2022 12:11:08 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

a person is accused of racist, sexist, or homophobe speech, or unwanted touching (ala Biden), without any prior accusations.  rather than posting on Facebook that this person is a sex offender/predator or a racist (outing and ostracizing the individual), he or she should be taken privately aside and given the opportunity to address the offense.  

agree or disagree?

As much as I find racist, sexist, or homophobic speech offensive, there is a certain gap between those actions and unwanted touching for me.  I embrace the idea of calling-in as a possibly effective mechanism in some instances of speech.  However, I personally could not embrace that approach for actual touching.  This is 2022 and I doubt there is anyone on the planet so dense that they don't realize exactly what they are doing when they touch another person against their will.  Because of my personal experiences, this is a hard line item for me.  

i am not sure that "will" is that certain in some instances.

for example, let's say you KNOW SOMEONE socially, and the custom is to hug.  let's say that person hugs you, when you didn't want to be hugged.  i am not saying that he touches your lady parts.  just a friendly hug.

did that cross the line?  if so, do you call him OUT or call him IN?

i am sorry to get so granular about this, but i have actually seen this happen, and had no idea how to react.

[djAdvocate]

May 9, 2022 17:49:51 GMT -5 daisylu said:

May 9, 2022 15:18:48 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

As much as I find racist, sexist, or homophobic speech offensive, there is a certain gap between those actions and unwanted touching for me.  I embrace the idea of calling-in as a possibly effective mechanism in some instances of speech.  However, I personally could not embrace that approach for actual touching.  This is 2022 and I doubt there is anyone on the planet so dense that they don't realize exactly what they are doing when they touch another person against their will.  Because of my personal experiences, this is a hard line item for me.  

Depends on how you define touching another person against their will. I live in an area south enough where it is common for people to touch you when they are talking to you - on the hand, shoulder, arm, leg if sitting down, etc. I have long been uncomfortable with this and often explain it to people. People who I know and work with are well aware of this, so they do not do it. But I still have to explain to new people I meet that I consider this unacceptable. It is hard to know people's limits. Would the first time be considered "against my will"? Obviously, if they do it after they've been warned it's a major issue. At least to me.

ok, this gets closer for me.  if it is customary, and nobody says "i don't care if it is customary, please don't touch me", then who is responsible?  

in theory, everyone should know not to touch, but clearly some people don't.  further, most of them don't mean anything by it.  it is not how they get off, they are just "touchy".  they like human contact.  i get that it is a problem if YOU DON'T, but do they deserve to be PUNISHED for not knowing that?

[djAdvocate]

sorry to turn this into "the boundary discussion".  it is not strictly on topic, but i hope that some of you can help me get some clarity.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2022 22:08:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 9, 2022 15:18:48 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

As much as I find racist, sexist, or homophobic speech offensive, there is a certain gap between those actions and unwanted touching for me.  I embrace the idea of calling-in as a possibly effective mechanism in some instances of speech.  However, I personally could not embrace that approach for actual touching.  This is 2022 and I doubt there is anyone on the planet so dense that they don't realize exactly what they are doing when they touch another person against their will.  Because of my personal experiences, this is a hard line item for me.  

i am not sure that "will" is that certain in some instances.

for example, let's say you KNOW SOMEONE socially, and the custom is to hug.  let's say that person hugs you, when you didn't want to be hugged.  i am not saying that he touches your lady parts.  just a friendly hug.

did that cross the line?  if so, do you call him OUT or call him IN?

i am sorry to get so granular about this, but i have actually seen this happen, and had no idea how to react.

In the instance you cite, I would call that person IN, in private.  I was referring to touching of a sexual nature, not a social hug.  I live in a very "huggy" area.  

[djAdvocate]

yeah, to be absolutely clear, unwanted sexual touching is absolutely out of bounds in all instances.  period.  full stop.

that is not what i am asking about.  i am asking about someone who is a bit too "friendly" FOR YOU.  it might even be FOR YOU TODAY.  sometimes you are just not in the mood for a hug.  kwim?

thanks for your response.

[raeoflyte]

I don't live in a huggy area thankfully, but had a couple bosses who always went for the side hug. The bosses who want to get to know you because that's what good managers do, without first focusing on work and getting to know you through that.

I'm never good in the moment, but will certainly try to side step such things in the future. Especially with covid, less physical contact with coworkers should be an easy ask.

[laterbloomer]

May 10, 2022 12:41:00 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

yeah, to be absolutely clear, unwanted sexual touching is absolutely out of bounds in all instances.  period.  full stop.

that is not what i am asking about.  i am asking about someone who is a bit too "friendly" FOR YOU.  it might even be FOR YOU TODAY.  sometimes you are just not in the mood for a hug.  kwim?

thanks for your response.

I belong to AA and they can be a huggy group of people. And it may shock you to hear that not everyone that goes to AA is sincere about recovery. Anyway, I have become a fist bump person. I feel like a video game icon holding my fist out in front of me in greeting but whatever. I've had people try to side step the fist and I give a firm no to that. I find the trick is to initiate the type of greeting I want to do first. Once I've made my comfort level clear they are being an asshat if they ignore it and I am freed from any false obligation to politeness.

[Deleted]

I think hugs between non-peers like employers and employees are problematic because of a possible feeling of coercion by the employer. My hugging circle definitely shrank since Covid. My huggers/huggees are people with whom I socialize, even though I often see them in a public business setting.

[djAdvocate]

May 10, 2022 15:50:10 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

I think hugs between non-peers like employers and employees are problematic because of a possible feeling of coercion by the employer. My hugging circle definitely shrank since Covid. My huggers/huggees are people with whom I socialize, even though I often see them in a public business setting.

mine too, but for different reasons, and before Covid.

i never thought of hugs as threatening, invasive or unwelcome before seven years ago.  but since then, i have been way more cautious.  i think that my new position is ultimately to the detriment of many.  but it is to the betterment of a few.  i have not really decided yet whether it weighs out positive, on the whole.  but it feels like a more defensible place to be.

i hate thinking like a lawyer.

[teen persuasion]

There's a whole genre of kids picture books about unwanted touching, and how the kids should navigate that.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I just did a microagression seminar at work.

A person in my break out group gave a good suggestion on some of this. When I am at work there is a boundary that is not there with friends and family.

I may know you but I probably don't KNOW you so I need to be mindful of that with what I do and say.

So hugging my BFF when her son died absolutely. Hugging my coworker is not something I would do but doing a sympathy card is probably safe.


I think in general asking yourself how well do we know each other is a good approach.

[Cookies Galore]

I'm a hugger but I also believe body autonomy trumps any desire for human contact. Especially when friends/relatives tell their kids to give Aunt Meggie a hug, I always tell the kid "only if you want you, you have control over your own body."

If I meet someone new, I'm not gonna hug, that's weird and icky. But as I get to know you I will take my cues from you and I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're comfortable with. I have people who get big hugs, people who get side/shoulder hugs, people who get fist bumps, people who get an enthusiastic wave and no body contact. I will always accept and happily give high fives.

Even as a huggy person I have days that I don't want contact, and Covid has definitely cut down on my hugging tendencies.

It all comes down to respecting others and their comfort. I never want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's my responsibility to read the cues.

[giramomma]

I just ask if it feels like a hug is coming on.

I ran into my old supervisor last week while out and about.  We were genuinely happy to see each other, and he was genuinely concerned about how I was doing with regards to my health. It was kinda going towards a hug...So..I asked.

One of my other colleagues was here about a month ago. We hadn't seen each other in person for two years? We hugged. She asked if it was OK...

There are folks at work that I adore that I would never hug. Because that's just not how they are. There are folks at work that I adore that I have hugged. 

My own kids are different. #2 is not a hugger like the rest of them are. But, she will come up and snuggle when she has the need.

I think, for me, personally, the microaggression comes when one party feels like they are entitled to a hug, and the other party is like "um...no."  Even if there's no hug, there person who feels entitled can really churn about it..I know my mom considers herself to be a friend of all small children. It used to stick in her craw that DS wouldn't always hug her the nanno-second he saw her. He was actually very affectionate towards my parents. I mean, we have pictures of it.  My mom liked to bring that up for a few years. "I hung out with Sally and her grandkids. SALLY"S grandkids see me and immediately give me a hug. What have you been telling your oldest so that he doesn't give me a hug."

[giramomma]

All this discussion made me think of "The Ladder of Inference."

www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTMC_91.htm

I don't know if you all have heard of it or not. If you have, apologies. If not, I find it to be a really good tool.

To me, using a tool like this to check your biases is also being woke.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 11, 2022 8:57:44 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

I'm a hugger but I also believe body autonomy trumps any desire for human contact. Especially when friends/relatives tell their kids to give Aunt Meggie a hug, I always tell the kid "only if you want you, you have control over your own body."

If I meet someone new, I'm not gonna hug, that's weird and icky. But as I get to know you I will take my cues from you and I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're comfortable with. I have people who get big hugs, people who get side/shoulder hugs, people who get fist bumps, people who get an enthusiastic wave and no body contact. I will always accept and happily give high fives.

Even as a huggy person I have days that I don't want contact, and Covid has definitely cut down on my hugging tendencies.

It all comes down to respecting others and their comfort. I never want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's my responsibility to read the cues.

I would get so mad at the church people who insisted on hugging or otherwise touching my kids then called me disrespectful when.I refused to make them.do it.

You have no right to touch my kid. My kids have a right to body autonomy. It sends the wrong message to children and especially girls that unwanted touch must be tolerated or you are being rude.

I don't care that your generation didn't believe children had the right to be their own people and I don't buy into.the idea that every random.adult is supposed to be able to demand stuff from my kid and they better hop to it.

I.do teach social manners. We're working on Gwen's social anxiety right now.

But that does not and will never extend to touching without consent. It's also critically important they know I have their back in case God forbid something does happen. Making them kiss the random old fart doesn't accomplish that.

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2022 11:34:46 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

My oldest daughter is not a hugger. But I usually give her a hug before she goes to school or when I say bye to her... Should I stop doing this ? I hate to think I am harming her in some way

What age?

[djAdvocate]

May 11, 2022 8:57:44 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

I'm a hugger but I also believe body autonomy trumps any desire for human contact. Especially when friends/relatives tell their kids to give Aunt Meggie a hug, I always tell the kid "only if you want you, you have control over your own body."

If I meet someone new, I'm not gonna hug, that's weird and icky. But as I get to know you I will take my cues from you and I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're comfortable with. I have people who get big hugs, people who get side/shoulder hugs, people who get fist bumps, people who get an enthusiastic wave and no body contact. I will always accept and happily give high fives.

Even as a huggy person I have days that I don't want contact, and Covid has definitely cut down on my hugging tendencies.

It all comes down to respecting others and their comfort. I never want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's my responsibility to read the cues.

this is yet another point.

some people are not that empathetic.  they don't judge reactions of others well.  they don't know when their hugs are welcome or not.

now, you may be saying "well they should know that about themselves, and if they did, they should just avoid hugging".  but there are two things about that.  first is that a lot of people that are disordered in this way NEED human contact MORE than people who understand their level of empathy.  and the second is that some of them don't actually know that they are damaged in this way.

this is why i think it is important for people to be able to articulate it when they DON'T want to be hugged.  note: i understand that it is the HUGGER that is invading the space.  don't get me wrong.  i am just saying that the hugger sometimes doesn't know that.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 11, 2022 11:34:46 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

My oldest daughter is not a hugger. But I usually give her a hug before she goes to school or when I say bye to her... Should I stop doing this ? I hate to think I am harming her in some way

Just ask. Gwen is not a huge hugger so I asked. She said I'm her mom of course she wants my hugs.



But I respect her space and also let her call how long it goes. She's getting pretty good at communicating.

It's more the aunt she sees once a year rushing to hug her or the bazillion of DHs relatives she barely knew at MILS funeral are where she isn't keen on it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 11, 2022 11:54:44 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 11, 2022 8:57:44 GMT -5 Cookies Galore said:

I'm a hugger but I also believe body autonomy trumps any desire for human contact. Especially when friends/relatives tell their kids to give Aunt Meggie a hug, I always tell the kid "only if you want you, you have control over your own body."

If I meet someone new, I'm not gonna hug, that's weird and icky. But as I get to know you I will take my cues from you and I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're comfortable with. I have people who get big hugs, people who get side/shoulder hugs, people who get fist bumps, people who get an enthusiastic wave and no body contact. I will always accept and happily give high fives.

Even as a huggy person I have days that I don't want contact, and Covid has definitely cut down on my hugging tendencies.

It all comes down to respecting others and their comfort. I never want to make anyone uncomfortable and it's my responsibility to read the cues.

this is yet another point.

some people are not that empathetic.  they don't judge reactions of others well.  they don't know when their hugs are welcome or not.

now, you may be saying "well they should know that about themselves, and if they did, they should just avoid hugging".  but there are two things about that.  first is that a lot of people that are disordered in this way NEED human contact MORE than people who understand their level of empathy.  and the second is that some of them don't actually know that they are damaged in this way.

this is why i think it is important for people to be able to articulate it when they DON'T want to be hugged.  note: i understand that it is the HUGGER that is invading the space.  don't get me wrong.  i am just saying that the hugger sometimes doesn't know that.

Intent and context were things talked about yesterday.

I have a great aunt who is a hugger. As in smash you into her books type hugger.

I know she means well. So to avoid it I put my arms out first or I stand in a way that keeps me from motor boating.

If I just lost someone and I get hugged the context is understandable and I can choose the appropriate response.

It's trickier with strangers. If you try to hug and I.say no.thank you and you back off it was probably good intent.

If you start mocking me, making jokes about frigid women or keep insisting it's just a hug now I'm assuming I'll intent otherwise why.are you doubling down?

At the end of the day though the hugger needs to develop the awareness that there's a time and place for it.

Which I'm going to say the majority of the population can attain that bare minimum level of social awareness. If you choose not to that's on you after awhile.