what exactly is "woke"

[Deleted]

I’ve given it some thought after reading Tiny’s post earlier today, and I don’t think shame or guilt are productive emotions for someone that is willing and trying to grow. When we learn better, it’s on us to do better. As long as we strive to learn, do and be better, I don’t really feel like we should beat ourselves up for the ways that we were unintentionally ignorant before. And I don’t mean “ignorant” as an insult. Here, I’m using the term to just mean a lack of knowledge. 

OAN and off topic, I’ve thought about what some of you said, encouraging me to make traveling a priority if it’s what I really want. I use to have a “traveling “ fund as part of my budget. I don’t recall when or why I removed that. I’m going to add it again. The only times I’ve been out of the country, was on a family reunion cruise to Mexico, and when I went to Jamaica twice in the same year. I’m ok if I never go on a cruise again. I enjoyed the time with my family, but I feel like I’ve still not experienced Mexico because we docked near tourist strips and I only had 8 hours on 2 days to be in Mexico. 

I don’t want to be a tourist, I want to be a traveler, and in my wonky mind, those are 2 different things. The second time I went to Jamaica, when I walked out of the airport, I STG I had the strangest feeling, like I’d come home. I still don’t know what that feeling was about, but for a while after I returned from that trip, I tried to figure out how I could move to Jamaica.

Anyway, even if I figure out how I can spend a week or 2 in a foreign land every year, that’s still not what I wish I could do. I don’t really want to just sightsee. In my perfect life, I guess I would be something like a nomad? I don’t want to just go where and do what tourists do, I want to learn about the people that live in other places, about their cultures and what their lives are like. That takes a little more time than a few days, or even a week or 2.

I guess I should’ve figured out in my 20’s how to fund a life like that, because at this point in my life, I really don’t see me realistically being able to fulfill those dreams. But you all are correct, it’s not too late to at least visit some of the places I’d like to go.

Mister and I travel well together. I’ve learned from experience that just because you like or even love a person, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can travel with them without issues.

I will see what I can figure out.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2022 17:14:54 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I grew up in a lily white area. Like I once said my little girl had never seen a black person and on an elevator in the city when very small said. Look mommy that lady is black, I was so embarrassed, the lady was so sweet, she said yes honey I am. I told her I was sorry, I didn't know what to say. That was when I realized what an insulated world I lived in. I had gone to college with people from everywhere, never thought anything about it.

My parents were biased and racist, I'm not sure they even realized it, it was just the way it was. If I used some of the words I was exposed to growing up you guys would run me off. I have slipped a few times and got called for it.

But there are just a few that stand out. I had a black professor in college, he was super smart and I liked his classes. He appeared somewhat aloof, but in looking back, I think he was just protecting his emotions. Can you imagine him attaining that level in a small midwestern city in the 60's, what he had to go through I will never know. I was bragging on him to my dad and how much I was learning from him and my dad said, I'm spending money for you go to college to learn this?? I never said anything about any of my profs again. I couldn't believe dad said that, but he did.

My husband and I both tried too not be those people that looked down on others. Living in Houston and Dallas helped us and hubs working all over the world really opened his eyes even more. Coming back here was an eye opener. But it is very, very slowly changing. We have hispanics, asians, middle eastern folks here, not many but still we never had any mix back in the day. A lot of people here are doing better, but some of the white folks here just can't let it go. They fail to see that there are just as many white people with problems as anyother or in some cases more than other. Most have never been away from here and believe the sterortype stuff they hear on the news.

Thank goodness son is worldly and his wife. Grandson has no idea anyone is different, he has and is exposed to all kinds of languages and people. I love seeing it, never heard him talk about anyone looking different even handicapped. They are working hard to make him color blind and special needs blind. I definitely approve.

I'm far from perfect, I'm old, and exposed to so much that was not right, but I sure try.

My mother was from rural Arkansas and she was both racist and not, all at the same time.  Part of her got the issue, but sometimes her background overwhelmed that.  My MIL was flat-out racist, using the N-word.  Yet, without making any excuses for her, she was the product of her background and generation.  Like countrygirl2 said, I'm far from perfect and old too.  And profoundly grateful for the folks who share here with such beautiful honesty.  Every day is a chance to learn and grow, and these board help me do that.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2022 18:06:06 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I’ve given it some thought after reading Tiny ’s post earlier today, and I don’t think shame or guilt are productive emotions for someone that is willing and trying to grow. When we learn better, it’s on us to do better. As long as we strive to learn, do and be better, I don’t really feel like we should beat ourselves up for the ways that we were unintentionally ignorant before. And I don’t mean “ignorant” as an insult. Here, I’m using the term to just mean a lack of knowledge. 

OAN and off topic, I’ve thought about what some of you said, encouraging me to make traveling a priority if it’s what I really want. I use to have a “traveling “ fund as part of my budget. I don’t recall when or why I removed that. I’m going to add it again. The only times I’ve been out of the country, was on a family reunion cruise to Mexico, and when I went to Jamaica twice in the same year. I’m ok if I never go on a cruise again. I enjoyed the time with my family, but I feel like I’ve still not experienced Mexico because we docked near tourist strips and I only had 8 hours on 2 days to be in Mexico. 

I don’t want to be a tourist, I want to be a traveler, and in my wonky mind, those are 2 different things. The second time I went to Jamaica, when I walked out of the airport, I STG I had the strangest feeling, like I’d come home. I still don’t know what that feeling was about, but for a while after I returned from that trip, I tried to figure out how I could move to Jamaica.

Anyway, even if I figure out how I can spend a week or 2 in a foreign land every year, that’s still not what I wish I could do. I don’t really want to just sightsee. In my perfect life, I guess I would be something like a nomad? I don’t want to just go where and do what tourists do, I want to learn about the people that live in other places, about their cultures and what their lives are like. That takes a little more time than a few days, or even a week or 2.

I guess I should’ve figured out in my 20’s how to fund a life like that, because at this point in my life, I really don’t see me realistically being able to fulfill those dreams. But you all are correct, it’s not too late to at least visit some of the places I’d like to go.

Mister and I travel well together. I’ve learned from experience that just because you like or even love a person, it doesn’t necessarily mean you can travel with them without issues.

I will see what I can figure out.

I hear you, but there is a quote from someone, somewhere, about a guest for perfection standing in the way of the possible, or something like that.  It's really big that you and Mister can travel together.  DH and I don't travel well together and never have.  He embraces mountains and luxury, I crave beaches and authenticity.  The $$ are his so the destinations are his too.  Oh well, it could be worse.  

[Deleted]

May 4, 2022 17:14:54 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I grew up in a lily white area. Like I once said my little girl had never seen a black person and on an elevator in the city when very small said. Look mommy that lady is black, I was so embarrassed, the lady was so sweet, she said yes honey I am. I told her I was sorry, I didn't know what to say. 

When DS was about 3, I was buying some earrings at Macy's and the salesman was a young black man. Out of nowhere, DS asked, "Can I touch your hair?" The guy was very nice and agreed to it and DS asked, "Why is it like that?" I told him that it was because his Mommy's and Daddy's hair was like that. I just considered it a teaching moment. Later, in HS at NY Military Academy, he lived with, studied with and was taught by a rich mix of people he never would have encountered in our suburb. It was a valuable part of his education.

I've been following this and learning a lot but am always hesitant to post anything- we've seen what happens when someone posts with no intention to offend but some people find it offensive.

May 4, 2022 18:06:06 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I’ve given it some thought after reading Tiny ’s post earlier today, and I don’t think shame or guilt are productive emotions for someone that is willing and trying to grow. When we learn better, it’s on us to do better. As long as we strive to learn, do and be better, I don’t really feel like we should beat ourselves up for the ways that we were unintentionally ignorant before. And I don’t mean “ignorant” as an insult. Here, I’m using the term to just mean a lack of knowledge. 

Amen to that. The CRT sessions have shown me that yes, I DO have many forms of white privilege. Dad had fewer- working-class, first to go to college, etc. He said the first time he didn't sleep in his own bed was the first night he spent away at college. Wow. OTOH, he could look at the pictures previous graduation classes in the Engineering school building and they all looked like him.

Instead of looking backwards I'd like to look at success stories. Yes, there IS systemic racism but what can we learn from the life stories of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, John Lewis, Oprah Winfrey, Thomas Sowell, Lisa Leslie (owns a WNBA team), Morgan Freeman, the attorney I know married to a judge, one of my former doctors (Princeton undergrad in Chem E., MD from Columbia), Archbishop Michael Curry (preached at Prince Harry's wedding) all of whom are POC? How can we encourage children by re-telling these stories so they know what they can achieve?

[countrygirl2]

More and more people of color are doing very well. We can see that now by all the experts on telly. While I don't envy the extra work and everything they have to do to be equal, and yes they do, I am seeing progress lots of it.

Don't you realize that is the problem with the conservatives and the far right, they resent and are scared. And they should be, they could do well with mediocre efforts before because of that white privilege, but many people, white and poc, are willing to do the extra work to get ahead and give more to achieve and they are being left behind. No one's fault but their own. We see people from all over the world come here, put in more effort and achieve their dreams.

But the conservates, instead of embracing everything so they to can do well, they are blaming others for their failures. They want to take away everything they can to push "the others" back down so they can remain "superior". But with access to education and everything its not working so now its, well we all see and hear it. If everyone here could come together so all can do well what a great country this would be. But it's nothing new, has happened forever.

I too am afraid to say to much as I'm not articulate enough to express what I mean without  unintentionally saying the wrong thing and I don't want to do that. 

[Deleted]

May 5, 2022 9:12:38 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

Don't you realize that is the problem with the conservatives and the far right, they resent and are scared. And they should be, they could do well with mediocre efforts before because of that white privilege, but many people, white and poc, are willing to do the extra work to get ahead and give more to achieve and they are being left behind. No one's fault but their own. We see people from all over the world come here, put in more effort and achieve their dreams.

I once saw a tote bag with the statement, "Just carry yourself like an average white male".  I LOVED that (with apologies to the many hard-working, smart, above-average white males I know).

Yes, I see a lot of feelings of being threatened.  BF, who is extremely liberal, watches many far-right sites to see what they're thinking and it's scary.  Two I found particularly scary are the InCels (Involuntary Celibates) and the Proud Boys and their ilk.  The InCels pretty much long for the days when they could club any woman they found attractive and take her back to their cave.   The Proud Boys types long for the days when only white men had power, whether they were competent or not, and women "knew their place" and stayed in the kitchen and had babies.  Not worlds where I want to live.

ETA:  And I wouldn't paint all conservatives with the same brush.  I consider DS to be conservative but, having been raised by a mother with a demanding career (which sure as heck benefited him) and gone to HS with kids from Brooklyn, the Bronx, Trinidad, China and Russia, he's not threatened by the successes of other groups. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 5, 2022 7:39:54 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 4, 2022 17:14:54 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I grew up in a lily white area. Like I once said my little girl had never seen a black person and on an elevator in the city when very small said. Look mommy that lady is black, I was so embarrassed, the lady was so sweet, she said yes honey I am. I told her I was sorry, I didn't know what to say. 

When DS was about 3, I was buying some earrings at Macy's and the salesman was a young black man. Out of nowhere, DS asked, "Can I touch your hair?" The guy was very nice and agreed to it and DS asked, "Why is it like that?" I told him that it was because his Mommy's and Daddy's hair was like that. I just considered it a teaching moment. Later, in HS at NY Military Academy, he lived with, studied with and was taught by a rich mix of people he never would have encountered in our suburb. It was a valuable part of his education.

I've been following this and learning a lot but am always hesitant to post anything- we've seen what happens when someone posts with no intention to offend but some people find it offensive.

May 4, 2022 18:06:06 GMT -5 @pinkcshmere said:

I’ve given it some thought after reading Tiny ’s post earlier today, and I don’t think shame or guilt are productive emotions for someone that is willing and trying to grow. When we learn better, it’s on us to do better. As long as we strive to learn, do and be better, I don’t really feel like we should beat ourselves up for the ways that we were unintentionally ignorant before. And I don’t mean “ignorant” as an insult. Here, I’m using the term to just mean a lack of knowledge. 

Amen to that. The CRT sessions have shown me that yes, I DO have many forms of white privilege. Dad had fewer- working-class, first to go to college, etc. He said the first time he didn't sleep in his own bed was the first night he spent away at college. Wow. OTOH, he could look at the pictures previous graduation classes in the Engineering school building and they all looked like him.

Instead of looking backwards I'd like to look at success stories. Yes, there IS systemic racism but what can we learn from the life stories of Neil DeGrasse Tyson, John Lewis, Oprah Winfrey, Thomas Sowell, Lisa Leslie (owns a WNBA team), Morgan Freeman, the attorney I know married to a judge, one of my former doctors (Princeton undergrad in Chem E., MD from Columbia), Archbishop Michael Curry (preached at Prince Harry's wedding) all of whom are POC? How can we encourage children by re-telling these stories so they know what they can achieve?

But there is a catch to it. Just as not everyone can be Bill Gates not everyone can be Morgan Freeman.

Given I'm not a privileged white male coming from a privileged family I'm already a rung below on the ladder. Is it possible to climb.sure but I'm going to have to work twice as hard and there will still be doors I cannot open due to gender and economic status.

Now let's throw in being a minority. Now you're two rungs below Gates. Can you I'm it sure but it's an even.tougher road than.I have.

It's not about victim mentality. It's about the idea that America is a meritocracy is a lie.

If we truly want it to be we need to even the playing field as much as possible.

For example eliminating names and asigning NIHgrants a number instead resulted over 50% increase in approval for funding for women.and minority researchers.

These are people who climbed the highest academic ladder and still faced roadblocks simply because a reviewer saw a female or ethnic name. You can't just work that type of bias away.

A similar study was done on admissions into orchestras. Blind auditions saw a rise in non white men being selected. You can be the best female cello player ever but if the judges already decided before you even sat down you can't practice your way out.

I and others shouldn't have to work twice as hard just to get to the same starting place as a white dude.

Pointing out success stories is great but it allows us to ignore all the systemic issues that make it harder to get there. There is a reason you see so few female and minority faces the higher you go and it isn't because everyone is not trying as hard as the white guys.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

The recent Supreme Court nomination process should have removed all doubts concerning whether America is an equal society.

Sure she got nominated but compare it to Barret and Kavanughs hearings. Neither of whom are nearly as educated or experienced so you can't argue the difference in treatment and lines of questioning came down to that.

She is more qualified than both of them. You can't ignore what difference it came down to between the three.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2022 9:50:35 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Given I'm not a privileged white male coming from a privileged family I'm already a rung below on the ladder. Is it possible to climb.sure but I'm going to have to work twice as hard and there will still be doors I cannot open due to gender and economic status.

Now let's throw in being a minority. Now you're two rungs below Gates. Can you I'm it sure but it's an even.tougher road than.I have.

<snip>
Pointing out success stories is great but it allows us to ignore all the systemic issues that make it harder to get there. There is a reason you see so few female and minority faces the higher you go and it isn't because everyone is not trying as hard as the white guys.

I know. When I was a kid all newscasters, doctors, lawyers, astronauts, chefs, dentists, clergy, business executives, etc. in my world were white males, 99% of them European ancestry. Everyone in print ads and commercials was white. That was 60 years ago. So, yeah, we've made progress but it's been SLOW. Still, the more diversity we can get in those fields, the more kids will see "people who look like me" in those fields and believe maybe they can do it, too, and will stay in school, continue advanced math courses, seek out college scholarships, apply for union apprenticeships, etc.

One of the few things I appreciated about actuarial exams was that they were graded anonymously- partly by computer and partly by committee, for the essay questions. You truly did pass or fail based only on how well you knew the material. It's not perfect, of course- even before you get in front of an exam you need to have taken a significant amount of advanced math classes, preferably have the support of an employer who will provide study time, and have a certain degree of self-confidence. All of that starts very early and the actuarial profession is working to bring math enhancement programs and awareness of the field to students, grade school trough college, that serve historically under-represented groups.

[Spellbound454]

On the whole I think "woke" is a bad thing that's because of the alignment of the far left.
Its has let to an extreme divisiveness..... and an identity politics which is turning violent and distasteful.

There is undoubtedly a disparity with the lack of opportunity for people of colour
and I think we could have been much more positive in providing opportunity and making sure people feel included and an integral part of society.
There should definitely be a working group within government recommending legislation to level the playing field. 

but politicising it, and giving way to extremism is not the way to go.
Society is getting fractured.... and that's not good.

I think we need to start again to get it right.

[azucena]

Was going to put this in the reading thread but then I thought it might fit best here and not muddy up that one.  I just started "I take my coffee black" and so far I'd recommend it.  I heard about it online, and I've been making an effort to read more authors of color.  Part of my own wokeness training.

If nothing else, my reading selection has changed enough that DD13 has noticed and commented.  She wants to read this one after me - I have to give it some thought bc there is some harsh language and of course sensitive topics.  She may be a little too young, but it might make the list I've got for as she ages

[raeoflyte]

May 6, 2022 8:10:54 GMT -5 azucena said:

Was going to put this in the reading thread but then I thought it might fit best here and not muddy up that one.  I just started "I take my coffee black" and so far I'd recommend it.  I heard about it online, and I've been making an effort to read more authors of color.  Part of my own wokeness training.

If nothing else, my reading selection has changed enough that DD13 has noticed and commented.  She wants to read this one after me - I have to give it some thought bc there is some harsh language and of course sensitive topics.  She may be a little too young, but it might make the list I've got for as she ages

It might be a book to read together? She definitely hears the language at school and I find it's a way to open conversations in a way that they'll actually converse with me more often then if I just try to talk about privilege and diversity.

[laterbloomer]

we've seen what happens when someone posts with no intention to offend but some people find it offensive.

No, we have seen what happens when someone posts with no intention to offend but does offend, is told they are being offensive and doubles down on their "right" to say whatever they want as long as "they don't intend to be offensive". This is actually what being woke is all about. Understanding that social injustice occurs and often if it isn't our own experience we don't understand how things affect BIPOC and being willing to learn and try to do better. The phrase that explained this best to me is that I'm not judged on intent but impact and I need to own the impact my words and actions have. Whether I intend to offend or not, if I am offensive the correct response is to apologise and rephrase what I was trying to say, not try to justify and dig in my heals on my right to be offensive.

[laterbloomer]

May 5, 2022 16:51:27 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

On the whole I think "woke" is a bad thing that's because of the alignment of the far left.
Its has let to an extreme divisiveness..... and an identity politics which is turning violent and distasteful.

There is undoubtedly a disparity with the lack of opportunity for people of colour
and I think we could have been much more positive in providing opportunity and making sure people feel included and an integral part of society.
There should definitely be a working group within government recommending legislation to level the playing field. 

but politicising it, and giving way to extremism is not the way to go.
Society is getting fractured.... and that's not good.

I think we need to start again to get it right.

That is a stunt that the right is sooooooo damn good at. When they want to avoid dealing with a very real issue they change the narrative to effectively be "you're not complaining about it properly". Society is and has been fractured for a long time, we are finally getting to a point where the underdogs have a voice and can be heard. Many of the people of priviledge do not like being made uncomfortable and are doing their best to silence that.

[laterbloomer]

I really don’t see me realistically being able to fulfill those dreams.

If it's something you really want and you are willing to do the work to get it you will be amazed by what is possible. The first step is not to defeat yourself by thinking it's impossible. Instead of telling yourself it's impossible, start asking how it would be possible. You will be amazed at the opportunities that will start presenting themselves.

[Spellbound454]

 That is a stunt that the right is sooooooo damn good at. When they want to avoid dealing with a very real issue they change the narrative to effectively be "you're not complaining about it properly". Society is and has been fractured for a long time, we are finally getting to a point where the underdogs have a voice and can be heard. Many of the people of priviledge do not like being made uncomfortable and are doing their best to silence that.

The point is, that it didn't need politicising at all. (I'm not on the right btw, not even in my own Country)

People could have made their point and we should have heard.

The alignment of the far left (marxism) has made it toxic.... and the opposition are using the term as a pejorative.
The danger is that the real issues get lost among the unpopularity of extremes and any gains which could have been made will be dismissed. This is not a universally accepted ideology and it may well have already peaked.


Difficult discussions around the subject of race and equality need to be had without the need for confrontation. People must have a voice.... It needs to be clear, long lasting and cross party.

This is the way to go imo.... bring everybody on board throughout society... and make some real change for the better. 

[NastyWoman]

May 6, 2022 14:01:41 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 That is a stunt that the right is sooooooo damn good at. When they want to avoid dealing with a very real issue they change the narrative to effectively be "you're not complaining about it properly". Society is and has been fractured for a long time, we are finally getting to a point where the underdogs have a voice and can be heard. Many of the people of priviledge do not like being made uncomfortable and are doing their best to silence that.

The point is, that it didn't need politicising at all. (I'm not on the right btw, not even in my own Country)

People could have made their point and we should have heard.

The alignment of the far left (marxism) has made it toxic.... and the opposition are using the term as a pejorative.
The danger is that the real issues get lost among the unpopularity of extremes and any gains which could have been made will be dismissed. This is not a universally accepted ideology and it may well have already peaked.


Difficult discussions around the subject of race and equality need to be had without the need for confrontation. People must have a voice.... It needs to be clear, long lasting and cross party.

This is the way to go imo.... bring everybody on board throughout society... and make some real change for the better. 

OMG,if there ever was a post proving how far apart people are on this issue your post would get First Place. How much do you really think Marxism is to blame for this politization of the issue? How extreme are equal rights to you? Why do you seem to think people have not been talking about inequities for like at least the last 60 years in larger society (I am not even going to mention the centuries there were discussions before that). It is an unfortunate but true gact that a large segment will need to be brought on board kicking and screaming because they are NOT going to give up their preferential treatment without a fight. And it is NOT right that others, be they POC, not CIS, or simply not rich females need to stand in the corner waiting for decades for the crumbs that are being tossed their way. And whilecI am politically left leaning I can guarantee you I am not by any stretch of the imagination a Marxist, just to put your mind to rest

[Spellbound454]

 OMG,if there ever was a post proving how far apart people are on this issue your post would get First Place.

This is the divisiveness I'm talking about. How is this good for society?
You are attacking me because you don't understand what I'm saying.... and anyone who strays from the preferred line must be attacked.
In your mind this cannot be discussed.

  How much do you really think Marxism is to blame for this politization of the issue

Lots, look it up.
What do you think the ideology is? Who do you think Antifa are and why have they taken over?

marxiststudies.blog.yorku.ca/2020/08/antifa-and-the-marxist-left-some-questions-and-answers/

www.dailysignal.com/2020/08/02/how-wokeness-is-a-product-of-marxism/

true gact that a large segment will need to be brought on board kicking and screaming because they are NOT going to give up their preferential treatment without a fight.

Yes...... and I was offering a solution.

I don't doubt the good intention of people who initially got involved.

I would certainly be supportive of their message ................but in its current state wokeness has turned in to something nasty.

and we need something else.

[TheOtherMe]

I think we need to start again to get it right.

In the US, how is that done?  The original settlers stole the land of the native Americans who were already here and eventually put them on reservations.  

Black people were brought to the US as slaves and are still suffering from that dehumanizing.  

How do we start again?

The Daily Signal is owned by the Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative "think" tank.  I won't read anything published by them. 


 Antifa has taken over nothing.  They are an outlier group.

[Deleted]

I don't like labels, but the politicians of my country, the US, have a tragic and persistent history of putting labels on people and issues and the majority-white population has embraced it for centuries because it favored them and their economic wellbeing. Am I late to the party in recognizing this? Yes, I am, and I struggle to determine what my role is in solving the problem.

If we have to put tidy labels on ourselves, I'm 74, white, heterosexual, pro-choice, Democrat, and left-leaning. I am not a Marxist.

And right now I am terrified that so much of what makes my life rich and meaningful could go away forever. Immigration, birth control, abortion rights, interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, the right to vote without gerrymandering or a poll tax. Every election cycle, it's harder to vote. Will some of my friends have their marriage declared invalid? Will some of my friends' children be denied a marriage license or a birth certificate?

My state's governor this week embraced depriving our public school districts of funds to support the education of non-citizens while our state economy relies on the labor of these immigrants' parents. Here, many of us believe that his next steps will be against same-sex marriage and interracial marriage.

[tallguy]

May 6, 2022 17:19:01 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

I don't like labels, but the politicians of my country, the US, have a tragic and persistent history of putting labels on people and issues and the majority-white population has embraced it for centuries because it favored them and their economic wellbeing. Am I late to the party in recognizing this? Yes, I am, and I struggle to determine what my role is in solving the problem.

If we have to put tidy labels on ourselves, I'm 74, white, heterosexual, pro-life, Democrat, and left-leaning. I am not a Marxist.

And right now I am terrified that so much of what makes my life rich and meaningful could go away forever. Immigration, birth control, abortion rights, interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, the right to vote without gerrymandering or a poll tax. Every election cycle, it's harder to vote. Will some of my friends have their marriage declared invalid? Will some of my friends' children be denied a marriage license or a birth certificate?

My state's governor this week embraced depriving our public school districts of funds to support the education of non-citizens while our state economy relies on the labor of these immigrants' parents. Here, many of us believe that his next steps will be against same-sex marriage and interracial marriage.

As long as we are talking about labels....  To be precise, you are apparently anti-abortion.  The opposing sides in the debate are properly called "pro-choice" (because they do not take a position on abortion itself except that it must be the woman's choice),  and "anti-abortion" (because they believe that abortion itself is the evil.)   "Pro-life" is a meaningless term adopted by those who are against abortion to make both their belief and themselves sound better.  Yes, it is commonly accepted.  No, it is not accurate.  With the exception of a random psychopath or sociopath here and there, everybody is pro-life.  It could also be very easily argued that those who hold pro-choice beliefs will in general have a greater respect for and appreciation of "life" in a real sense than those who hold opposing views.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2022 17:36:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

May 6, 2022 17:19:01 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

I don't like labels, but the politicians of my country, the US, have a tragic and persistent history of putting labels on people and issues and the majority-white population has embraced it for centuries because it favored them and their economic wellbeing. Am I late to the party in recognizing this? Yes, I am, and I struggle to determine what my role is in solving the problem.

If we have to put tidy labels on ourselves, I'm 74, white, heterosexual, pro-life, Democrat, and left-leaning. I am not a Marxist.

And right now I am terrified that so much of what makes my life rich and meaningful could go away forever. Immigration, birth control, abortion rights, interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, the right to vote without gerrymandering or a poll tax. Every election cycle, it's harder to vote. Will some of my friends have their marriage declared invalid? Will some of my friends' children be denied a marriage license or a birth certificate?

My state's governor this week embraced depriving our public school districts of funds to support the education of non-citizens while our state economy relies on the labor of these immigrants' parents. Here, many of us believe that his next steps will be against same-sex marriage and interracial marriage.

As long as we are talking about labels....  To be precise, you are apparently anti-abortion.  The opposing sides in the debate are properly called "pro-choice" (because they do not take a position on abortion itself except that it must be the woman's choice),  and "anti-abortion" (because they believe that abortion itself is the evil.)   "Pro-life" is a meaningless term adopted by those who are against abortion to make both their belief and themselves sound better.  Yes, it is commonly accepted.  No, it is not accurate.  With the exception of a random psychopath or sociopath here and there, everybody is pro-life.  It could also be very easily argued that those who hold pro-choice beliefs will in general have a greater respect for and appreciation of "life" in a real sense than those who hold opposing views.

tallguy my bad, I am distinctly pro-choice if we are labeling.  I was trying to post and cook dinner at the same time.  I will edit my post!

[tallguy]

May 6, 2022 17:44:46 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

May 6, 2022 17:36:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

As long as we are talking about labels....  To be precise, you are apparently anti-abortion.  The opposing sides in the debate are properly called "pro-choice" (because they do not take a position on abortion itself except that it must be the woman's choice),  and "anti-abortion" (because they believe that abortion itself is the evil.)   "Pro-life" is a meaningless term adopted by those who are against abortion to make both their belief and themselves sound better.  Yes, it is commonly accepted.  No, it is not accurate.  With the exception of a random psychopath or sociopath here and there, everybody is pro-life.  It could also be very easily argued that those who hold pro-choice beliefs will in general have a greater respect for and appreciation of "life" in a real sense than those who hold opposing views.

tallguy my bad, I am distinctly pro-choice if we are labeling.  I was trying to post and cook dinner at the same time.  I will edit my post!

Good to know.  Thank you.

[laterbloomer]

May 6, 2022 14:01:41 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 That is a stunt that the right is sooooooo damn good at. When they want to avoid dealing with a very real issue they change the narrative to effectively be "you're not complaining about it properly". Society is and has been fractured for a long time, we are finally getting to a point where the underdogs have a voice and can be heard. Many of the people of priviledge do not like being made uncomfortable and are doing their best to silence that.

The point is, that it didn't need politicising at all. (I'm not on the right btw, not even in my own Country)

People could have made their point and we should have heard.

The alignment of the far left (marxism) has made it toxic.... and the opposition are using the term as a pejorative.
The danger is that the real issues get lost among the unpopularity of extremes and any gains which could have been made will be dismissed. This is not a universally accepted ideology and it may well have already peaked.


Difficult discussions around the subject of race and equality need to be had without the need for confrontation. People must have a voice.... It needs to be clear, long lasting and cross party.

This is the way to go imo.... bring everybody on board throughout society... and make some real change for the better. 

Just a long winded way of saying you're not complaining the right way. The only way I can be non confrontational with you is to not confront you on your bull shit. What is the right way to say BIPOC are killed by police at an alarming rate just because they can? What is the right way to say that white Christians should stop forcing their will on everyone else?

[Spellbound454]

 Just a long winded way of saying you're not complaining the right way. The only way I can be non confrontational with you is to not confront you on your bull shit. What is the right way to say BIPOC are killed by police at an alarming rate just because they can? What is the right way to say that white Christians should stop forcing their will on everyone else?

Another one attacking because I'm not giving the prescribed answer .......... without even attempting to read what I'd actually said.

[laterbloomer]

May 6, 2022 23:34:16 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Just a long winded way of saying you're not complaining the right way. The only way I can be non confrontational with you is to not confront you on your bull shit. What is the right way to say BIPOC are killed by police at an alarming rate just because they can? What is the right way to say that white Christians should stop forcing their will on everyone else?

Another one attacking because I'm not giving the prescribed answer .......... without even attempting to read what I'd actually said.

And yet another deflection. Anything to avoid actually addressing the issues.

[Deleted]

May 6, 2022 17:36:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

"Pro-life" is a meaningless term adopted by those who are against abortion to make both their belief and themselves sound better.  Yes, it is commonly accepted.  No, it is not accurate.

I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can call themselves "pro-life" when it comes to abortion. They've adopted or fostered multiple kids who are traditionally hard to place (older, special needs, etc.) The rest have 2.5 (on average) perfect biological children.

[raeoflyte]

May 6, 2022 23:34:16 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

 Just a long winded way of saying you're not complaining the right way. The only way I can be non confrontational with you is to not confront you on your bull shit. What is the right way to say BIPOC are killed by police at an alarming rate just because they can? What is the right way to say that white Christians should stop forcing their will on everyone else?

Another one attacking because I'm not giving the prescribed answer .......... without even attempting to read what I'd actually said.

We are reading what your saying. Your saying these issues shouldn't be political which is easy to say when it doesn't impact you. I don't want my life politicized but how else could I have gotten the right to marriage (and hopefully keep it)? Honest question? If dh is deemed by the government to not by my spouse and not the father of my kids - how do I fix that without getting political?

How do you think racial inequities should have been addressed? Capernack kneeled for years, ending his career in peaceful protest and it did nothing but piss people off. The data on police brutality of minorities is not new, but police didn't care, government didn't care. The people with power didn't care. They only care now because it's disrupting their lives.

What did men say about women fighting for the right to vote? We didn't get that right by politely asking our fathers and husband's and racial inequities are stopping minorities from voting now too. What is your solution if the current one is so wrong?

[raeoflyte]

May 7, 2022 7:56:59 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 6, 2022 17:36:40 GMT -5 tallguy said:

"Pro-life" is a meaningless term adopted by those who are against abortion to make both their belief and themselves sound better.  Yes, it is commonly accepted.  No, it is not accurate.

I can count on one hand the number of people I know who can call themselves "pro-life" when it comes to abortion. They've adopted or fostered multiple kids who are traditionally hard to place (older, special needs, etc.) The rest have 2.5 (on average) perfect biological children.

I've always said that should be a requirement of being "pro-life".

[Artemis Windsong]

Short answer is social awareness.