How do you find out what your coworker died of when

[Opti]

Nov 15, 2021 17:24:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 14, 2021 21:09:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So how is she going to prove the company "did something to her?". He was out weeks he could have very well been ill with something else and contracted Covid without ever stepping foot in the store again.

If you lost a loved one would you appreciate them demanding you owe them an answer? How would you feel if complete strangers were trying to obtain their death certificate?

If her company is as shitty as she claims report them and quit. Do not stalk a dead man trying to confirm something that is currently only a rumor.

He's dead. Nothing changes. All digging does is satisfy some morbid curiosity. It holds no one accountable and if you're going to keep working there WTF is the point?

If I lost a loved one to Covid I would totally understand people that had been in contact with them wanting to know. If it wasn't Covid I would understand people wanting to know that too. If it wasn't Covid there is no need to say what it was, that could be an invasion of privacy.

Out of curiosity, why would someone care about people knowing what they died of. Not criticizing, I just can't imagine caring about that.

I'm beginning to understand why people may not want to reveal if someone died of Covid. The time to know person X has Covid is soon after they know, if people have been exposed to person X long enough to possibly transmit Covid. If person X contracts Covid and the only folks who might be that exposed are family members and healthcare workers aware of the situation, is there great value in revealing cause of death?

I think at least one Covid denier chose to commit suicide instead of going on a ventilator and/or being hospitalized. 

[laterbloomer]

Nov 15, 2021 18:22:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nov 15, 2021 17:16:37 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I'm fully vaccinated and I don't care who knows it. I'm on the fence about whether or not to force other people to disclose their status. To me there is a difference in having to disclose that you have definitely exposed someone to a potentially deadly disease and whether you took steps to avoid getting said disease.
And the fact that it is hard to make companies behave morally is not a reason to condemn her for trying.

Your vaccination status sure does affect me. I do not willingly spend time with anyone who is unvaccinated except at work, where I can control mask wearing. Knowing you are unvaccinated allows me to make that decision. We are in the middle of a pandemic. Haven't we seen en ough of people acting irresponsibly an prolonging this.

She has very little chance of making her company act responsibly. If she is that concerned, she should notify OSHA, as has been pointed out multiple times. They can investigate and fine the company as they see fit. Nobody can make another act morally. There can only be consequences for immoral behavior.

You know a lot of the time I don't really get why you are arguing with me. I already said I'm fully vaccinated and totally fine with disclosing that. And then your argument for disclosing vaccination status seems to apply ten fold to knowing if someone you work closely with died of Covid.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 15, 2021 18:37:08 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 18:22:16 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Your vaccination status sure does affect me. I do not willingly spend time with anyone who is unvaccinated except at work, where I can control mask wearing. Knowing you are unvaccinated allows me to make that decision. We are in the middle of a pandemic. Haven't we seen en ough of people acting irresponsibly an prolonging this.

She has very little chance of making her company act responsibly. If she is that concerned, she should notify OSHA, as has been pointed out multiple times. They can investigate and fine the company as they see fit. Nobody can make another act morally. There can only be consequences for immoral behavior.

You know a lot of the time I don't really get why you are arguing with me. I already said I'm fully vaccinated and totally fine with disclosing that. And then your argument for disclosing vaccination status seems to apply ten fold to knowing if someone you work closely with died of Covid.

1 knowing if you have been exposed to Covid when you can take an action in a time effective fashion is important
2 knowing if someone is vaccinated so one can decide to take the risk is important
3 being told weeks after the fact of exposure is irrelevant because you are no longer at risk of infection, so you can do nothing about it
4 invading someone’s privacy, trying to obtain their death certificate, and asking your employer repeatedly about the cause of death is over the top because you cannot do anything about it, so it is time to get over it
5 if you do not trust your employer to keep you safe(a reasonable concern), your choices are to quit or report them to OSHA

[TheOtherMe]

The families of some of the employees of the meat packing company in Waterloo, Iowa are now suing the company over their deaths.

That outbreak would still be going on if the County Public Health Department and the Sheriff hadn't taken matters in to their own hands and made it national news.  

It was getting in to the community because of the outbreak there and somebody (not our state government) decided enough was enough.

Then it was uncovered that upper management was taking bets on how many would "drop" each day.  They did all get fired.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

Nov 15, 2021 16:13:45 GMT -5 haapai said:

Nov 15, 2021 15:54:39 GMT -5 Opti said:

Did you catch Covid just before he stopped being at work? 

Nope.  to the best of my knowledge, I have never had Covid. 

I don't know what string you are pulling on. 

I've respected this guy's privacy when I am damn certain that others have not.  I'm not claiming that this guy ever did anything that endangered me or that my employer has failed to follow the rules that they are supposed to have followed.  I'm not out to expose or sue my employer. 

I want something else, answers to why he is gone and some perspective on what my own occupational risks might be.  And it seems that if I ask those questions, I'm flighty, or sneaky, or nosy, or litigious, or scaring folks, or spreading rumors, or just out of my lane. 

It's damn frustrating.  And stop telling me to find another job.  My job might suck, the people that I work with might be behaving badly, but what you are asking is for me to take a job that pays less than 75% of what I make now, possibly much less, and hope that it will be better.  I might just be better off with the devil that I know. 

This is contradictory. 

[Opti]

I'm hoping Haapai is just reacting emotionally because perhaps none of her coworkers have died of Covid before. She hasn't had a lot of time to process this.

[laterbloomer]

Nov 15, 2021 19:29:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nov 15, 2021 18:37:08 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You know a lot of the time I don't really get why you are arguing with me. I already said I'm fully vaccinated and totally fine with disclosing that. And then your argument for disclosing vaccination status seems to apply ten fold to knowing if someone you work closely with died of Covid.

1 knowing if you have been exposed to Covid when you can take an action in a time effective fashion is important
2 knowing if someone is vaccinated so one can decide to take the risk is important
3 being told weeks after the fact of exposure is irrelevant because you are no longer at risk of infection, so you can do nothing about it
4 invading someone’s privacy, trying to obtain their death certificate, and asking your employer repeatedly about the cause of death is over the top because you cannot do anything about it, so it is time to get over it
5 if you do not trust your employer to keep you safe(a reasonable concern), your choices are to quit or report them to OSHA

Number 3 is where we part company. You are basically saying if they can keep it a secret long enough they get rewarded. No, there is no statute of limitations on her right to know this information. No individual or company has the right to keep Covid exposure a secret. If the coworker never had Covid all they have to do is say so. They don't have to say what they did die of.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 15, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 19:29:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

1 knowing if you have been exposed to Covid when you can take an action in a time effective fashion is important
2 knowing if someone is vaccinated so one can decide to take the risk is important
3 being told weeks after the fact of exposure is irrelevant because you are no longer at risk of infection, so you can do nothing about it
4 invading someone’s privacy, trying to obtain their death certificate, and asking your employer repeatedly about the cause of death is over the top because you cannot do anything about it, so it is time to get over it
5 if you do not trust your employer to keep you safe(a reasonable concern), your choices are to quit or report them to OSHA

Number 3 is where we part company. You are basically saying if they can keep it a secret long enough they get rewarded. No, there is no statute of limitations on her right to know this information. No individual or company has the right to keep Covid exposure a secret. If the coworker never had Covid all they have to do is say so. They don't have to say what they did die of.

If she was not exposed at work, she has no right to that information. People have a right to privacy about medical information. She only has a right if it affects her health.

At this point it does not matter to her health. You are arguing what should have been done. People do not act ethically. At this point, the only recourse is to quit or report her. Arguing about what her employer should have done is pointless. She already knows, from prior experience, they are not trustworthy. How does knowing they allowed her to be exposed change anything? They did not enforce mask mandates, distancing, and the like. This most recent episode is completely consistent with their corporate culture

ETA: they may not know the cause of his hospitalization or death. There is no requirement for him or his family to inform them. And saying nothing in that situation is the best approach for them.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 15, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 19:29:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

1 knowing if you have been exposed to Covid when you can take an action in a time effective fashion is important
2 knowing if someone is vaccinated so one can decide to take the risk is important
3 being told weeks after the fact of exposure is irrelevant because you are no longer at risk of infection, so you can do nothing about it
4 invading someone’s privacy, trying to obtain their death certificate, and asking your employer repeatedly about the cause of death is over the top because you cannot do anything about it, so it is time to get over it
5 if you do not trust your employer to keep you safe(a reasonable concern), your choices are to quit or report them to OSHA

Number 3 is where we part company. You are basically saying if they can keep it a secret long enough they get rewarded. No, there is no statute of limitations on her right to know this information. No individual or company has the right to keep Covid exposure a secret. If the coworker never had Covid all they have to do is say so. They don't have to say what they did die of.

You're still assuming this was some conspiracy cover-up...and OP has already stated she's never had any driving curiosity about anyone else that was out on covid leave and others she's worked with have been positive.  Why the obsession with this one?  Just because he died?  

[laterbloomer]

Nov 15, 2021 21:07:19 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Nov 15, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Number 3 is where we part company. You are basically saying if they can keep it a secret long enough they get rewarded. No, there is no statute of limitations on her right to know this information. No individual or company has the right to keep Covid exposure a secret. If the coworker never had Covid all they have to do is say so. They don't have to say what they did die of.

If she was not exposed at work, she has no right to that information. People have a right to privacy about medical information. She only has a right if it affects her health.

At this point it does not matter to her health. You are arguing what should have been done. People do not act ethically. At this point, the only recourse is to quit or report her. Arguing about what her employer should have done is pointless. She already knows, from prior experience, they are not trustworthy. How does knowing they allowed her to be exposed change anything? They did not enforce mask mandates, distancing, and the like. This most recent episode is completely consistent with their corporate culture

I really don't understand why you are ok with that and why you take the company's side. It never changes if no one challenges the behaviour. If hapaii wants to take on this battle I say you go girl. More power to her. I'm not sure she will win, but thank God for people that don't roll over and say go ahead and screw your employees over again and again. We all benefit from the battles those people fight.

[laterbloomer]

Nov 15, 2021 21:10:57 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 15, 2021 20:59:24 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Number 3 is where we part company. You are basically saying if they can keep it a secret long enough they get rewarded. No, there is no statute of limitations on her right to know this information. No individual or company has the right to keep Covid exposure a secret. If the coworker never had Covid all they have to do is say so. They don't have to say what they did die of.

You're still assuming this was some conspiracy cover-up...and OP has already stated she's never had any driving curiosity about anyone else that was out on covid leave and others she's worked with have been positive.  Why the obsession with this one?  Just because he died?  

Well ya...he died and they are being secretive.

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 15, 2021 21:13:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 21:07:19 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

If she was not exposed at work, she has no right to that information. People have a right to privacy about medical information. She only has a right if it affects her health.

At this point it does not matter to her health. You are arguing what should have been done. People do not act ethically. At this point, the only recourse is to quit or report her. Arguing about what her employer should have done is pointless. She already knows, from prior experience, they are not trustworthy. How does knowing they allowed her to be exposed change anything? They did not enforce mask mandates, distancing, and the like. This most recent episode is completely consistent with their corporate culture

I really don't understand why you are ok with that and why you take the company's side. It never changes if no one challenges the behaviour. If hapaii wants to take on this battle I say you go girl. More power to her. I'm not sure she will win, but thank God for people that don't roll over and say go ahead and screw your employees over again and again. We all benefit from the battles those people fight.

I am not taking the company’s side. What I have an issue with her her invading the family’s privacy. His cause of death is irrelevant to the issue. They have not been responsible during the entire pandemic. Report them to OSHA, they deserve it. But finding out the cause of death is unnecessary. It changes nothing

[pulmonarymd]

Nov 15, 2021 21:15:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 21:10:57 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

You're still assuming this was some conspiracy cover-up...and OP has already stated she's never had any driving curiosity about anyone else that was out on covid leave and others she's worked with have been positive.  Why the obsession with this one?  Just because he died?  

Well ya...he died and they are being secretive.

They are allowed to be secretive. It is not their information to share

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 15, 2021 21:15:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 21:10:57 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

You're still assuming this was some conspiracy cover-up...and OP has already stated she's never had any driving curiosity about anyone else that was out on covid leave and others she's worked with have been positive.  Why the obsession with this one?  Just because he died?  

Well ya...he died and they are being secretive.

In my world...even pre-covid...people didn't discuss what someone died from unless the family brought it up, and it sure as hell wasn't something that work announced to employees.  We had a coworker die just a few months ago.  He was working in our other facility an hour away and staying in a hotel and didn't show up for work, so another guy went to his room to check on him and found him dead.  There are rumors and speculation, but there's never been anything official about what happened and his family did not put it in the obituary or talk about it at the memorial which is fine.  It's not something I or anyone else he worked with needs to know. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Let's say they say no he didn't die of COVID.

Where is the proof?  What are they still hiding? How do you know they aren't saying that just to cover their tracks?

What about anyone else out sick?  Shouldn't they have to prove too they don't have COVID  to anyone who demands it?

Where does the paranoia end?  They clearly don't have the OPS trust hence her desire to try to find the death certificate.

 He could have dropped dead suddenly of unknown causes at the moment and nobody actually knows.  Newsflash that happens even in a pandemic.

So even if he had it nobody would know.  I doubt they covid test corpses.

BUT if you're convinced a conspiracy is going on there is no logic. 

AND the OP said she doesn't plan on doing anything about the company.   She's not some hero standing up to the man. She has admitted she's paranoid and looking for her own peace of mind.

Its time to get help if your fear is that consuming 

[Opti]

Nov 15, 2021 21:15:40 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Nov 15, 2021 21:10:57 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

You're still assuming this was some conspiracy cover-up...and OP has already stated she's never had any driving curiosity about anyone else that was out on covid leave and others she's worked with have been positive.  Why the obsession with this one?  Just because he died?  

Well ya...he died and they are being secretive.

The family has to be willing to release the cause of death and allow the company to share it. 

Workers can hide their status from a company, especially if they leave b4 a test to confirm one way or the other. But we don't again even know if this person was positive and if so who knew it and when. 

[thyme4change]

I think there are better ways to question the company's Covid policies than to stalk the medical records of one dead co-worker.

[Opti]

Nov 16, 2021 9:12:34 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I think there are better ways to question the company's Covid policies than to stalk the medical records of one dead co-worker.

Or to determine whether your managers are weasels.

Knowing what he died of proves nothing especially since it occurred outside of work.

1)The big question should be was he Covid positive when he was working?
2) Did mgmt know? Did HR know?
3) Was OP exposed?

Finding out his cause of death will not answer these questions. OP stated the funeral is Saturday, so she may not know anything further until Sat/Sun.

[Miss Tequila]

Nov 16, 2021 9:39:11 GMT -5 Opti said:

Nov 16, 2021 9:12:34 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I think there are better ways to question the company's Covid policies than to stalk the medical records of one dead co-worker.

Or to determine whether your managers are weasels.

Knowing what he died of proves nothing especially since it occurred outside of work.

1)The big question should be was he Covid positive when he was working?
2) Did mgmt know? Did HR know?
3) Was OP exposed?

Finding out his cause of death will not answer these questions. OP stated the funeral is Saturday, so she may not know anything further until Sat/Sun.

Even if the person died of Covid, she will never be able to prove that she was ever put at risk. He could have been off during the time he would have been contagious but not having symptoms. That’s what happened to me. Due to dumb luck with timing, no one at my company was at risk because I got sick more than 48 hours after I left the office (that is what the department of health told our HR at the time). And honestly, by the time I was diagnosed it was at the tail end of everyone’s quarantine period. (Day 8 versus 10 days of quarantine).

And we are completely missing that there are a symptomatic people that will never know they had it but can still spread it.

[haapai]

Apparently, a family member of the deceased has been posting enough details of his hospitalization and death that I can rest assured that it was indeed a death due to complications of Covid.  The company is still following their policy of never saying anything about an employee's health that anyone could possibly argue might have been a HIPPA violation even when that information is public.  On the other hand, employees now feel comfortable saying that it was a Covid death and that's quite an improvement. 

I am not going to ask folks what his daughter's name is and join Facebook just to read it myself.  I'll pretend to be able to read it on tiny phones being held out by others instead. 

The competent gossip that I consulted with today, told me that those postings also included the fact that he was vaccinated.  (He's been out of work for longer than booster doses have been available to most of us.) 

I don't think that his family was trying to hide his illness or his death.  I just don't gossip enough. 

My booster is scheduled for Thursday. 

[andi9899]

So now what? You got what you wanted. What are you going to do now? Keep obsessing? Let it go? Look for a new job? Find something new to obsess over?

FWIW, I still think you need some professional help.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Nov 16, 2021 11:21:17 GMT -5 haapai said:

Apparently, a family member of the deceased has been posting enough details of his hospitalization and death that I can rest assured that it was indeed a death due to complications of Covid.  The company is still following their policy of never saying anything about an employee's health that anyone could possibly argue might have been a HIPPA violation even when that information is public.  On the other hand, employees now feel comfortable saying that it was a Covid death and that's quite an improvement. 

I am not going to ask folks what his daughter's name is and join Facebook just to read it myself.  I'll pretend to be able to read it on tiny phones being held out by others instead. 

The competent gossip that I consulted with today, told me that those postings also included the fact that he was vaccinated.  (He's been out of work for longer than booster doses have been available to most of us.) 

I don't think that his family was trying to hide his illness or his death.  I just don't gossip enough. 

My booster is scheduled for Thursday. 

So what did that accomplish? What does it change?  It doesn't prove that at any time you were exposed to it.  He could have very well contracted it when he wasn't around any of you.   

I still think you need help.  The fact that you are assuring us you will NOT stalk the daughter on Facebook like that was even a reasonable option, still suggests you have gone far beyond wanting to make sure you are safe.  WTF kind of people do you work with and company do you work for that it encourages this type of behavior?

THIS is why some people choose not to give out cause of death, because it becomes a source of gossip fuel for others.  Grieving families don't need more crap piled on top of them.

[Opti]

Nov 16, 2021 11:36:05 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

So now what? You got what you wanted. What are you going to do now? Keep obsessing? Let it go? Look for a new job? Find something new to obsess over?

FWIW, I still think you need some professional help.

I don't think she needs professional help. She seems to be somewhat of an emotional thinker which is why she is still disappointed the company is not speaking about the cause of this former employee's death. If she tended to logical thinking, she'd be aware it is not their place to speak of it and it is also for legal reasons. Even if the daughter posted whatever on FB, it doesn't mean that the entire family would be OK with discussing his demise in his workplace, especially officially. Lawsuits and bad will can happen to the company if they did what she feels they should do.

She seems happier about the situation, so hopefully that's enough.

[haapai]

Update.  I no longer believe that this was a breakthrough death.  My coworker's daughter may be posting on Facebook that her daddy was double-jabbed (I haven't looked) and my "my-antibodies-are-better-than-your-vaccine" coworker may be finding such information G-- knows where and repeating it, or confounding it with some other story, or simply inventing it but that doesn't mean that I have to believe them. 

It's simply a matter at looking at the 12 to one odds (now 13 to one odds) and comparing them to the likelihood that someone is saying something that isn't true.  An awful lot of human beings fib more often than 12 to 1 odds come in and stories only get more unreliable the more folks are involved in carrying the tale. 

I seem to have inadvertently demonstrated why I am out of the gossip loop in my workplace.  The gossip is so damn unreliable that it's probably better not to plug into it. 

Does anyone know if the CDC breaks down the relative odds of dying of covid if you are vaccinated or unvaccinated by age group?  I've looked for it but I can only find the all-ages data.  Alternatively, does anyone have a link to some other county's data on the same subject?   If that data exists, I'd like to take a look at it to see how much it changes with age.  I won't be foolish enough to look at data from another country and assume that the relationships found there will hold for someone living the the US.  A better or worse health care system under different levels of stress or a population with different levels of smoking, obesity, and hypertension, could really affect the ratios. 

Since my coworker was sixty, it might be particularly helpful to look at the ratios coming out of a country that tracks health data by ten-year increments instead of the wider bands that I often see used in the US. 

[haapai]

I think that I found the data that I was looking for.  The CDC publishes it but you have to do your own division and they do not make it easy to capture the information contained in the pop-ups.  

I only did the math for one week because it was such a PITA to capture and I calculated the ratio for the three oldest age groups.  The odds of this being a breakthrough death are even slimmer than the 13 to one ratio that I've seen bandied about so much.  For the week ending 10/2/2021 unvaccinated people in the 50-64 age bracket had 21 times the risk of dying of Covid as the vaccinated crowd.  For folks in the  to 65 to 79 age bracket, the odds were quite similar, 20 and a smidge times the chance of dying a breakthrough death if you were unvaccinated than if you were vaccinated.

It's the terrible odds in the over 80 crowd, 5.9 to one, and the number of deaths in that age group that are lowering the odds to the 13 to one factoid that we hear so often. 

[andi9899]

You're still on this? You need to let it go. The guy got sick and died. You didn't. Move on.

[Tiny]

It's simply a matter at looking at the 12 to one odds (now 13 to one odds) and comparing them to the likelihood that someone is saying something that isn't true.

I'm not sure why this is still bothering you. Are you being asked by your coworkers to support your views about the cause of your coworkers death (since it seems the cause was not announced)? And that's why you need proof?

At this point what does it matter what your co-worker died from? They are dead and everyone else at work is not.  AND theoretically,  neither you nor your still living coworkers are in danger of getting whatever killed your coworker FROM that coworker.   (OK, it's hard to know what coworkers do in their  spare time with other coworkers -  I assume YOU have NOT swapped spit or bodily fluids or shared a needle  with your coworker before they died - and so have no chance of having contracted some life threatening disease they may have had that is communicable and that factored into their death   ).  


At some point, doesn't this become a kind of "how big is a Kardashian Ass??" thing - as in meaningless?

[haapai]

Dec 1, 2021 14:15:04 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

You're still on this? You need to let it go. The guy got sick and died. You didn't. Move on.

Nuts to you!  In the process, I also got a better bead on how much being vaccinated reduces my chance of dying of Covid and how reliable the gossip netwerk at work is.  I regret nothing!

[laterbloomer]

Dec 1, 2021 14:21:28 GMT -5 haapai said:

Dec 1, 2021 14:15:04 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

You're still on this? You need to let it go. The guy got sick and died. You didn't. Move on.

Nuts to you!  In the process, I also got a better bead on how much being vaccinated reduces my chance of dying of Covid and how reliable the gossip netwerk at work is.  I regret nothing!

😅🤣🤣 Valuable information!!!!

[andi9899]

Dec 1, 2021 14:21:28 GMT -5 haapai said:

Dec 1, 2021 14:15:04 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

You're still on this? You need to let it go. The guy got sick and died. You didn't. Move on.

Nuts to you!  In the process, I also got a better bead on how much being vaccinated reduces my chance of dying of Covid and how reliable the gossip netwerk at work is.  I regret nothing!

The fact that 99% of the people dying are unvaccinated and 95% of those hospitalized ar unvaccinated should be enough to tell you that you have a much lower chance of being hospitalized or dying if you're vaccinated. Why do you have to go on a wild goose chase when the proof is in front of your face and invade the guy's privacy at the same time?

Also, who cares about the gossip network at work? How old are you? If older than HS, you really should find a different hobby.