Unvaccinated

[finnime]

I can speak to the scarcity of donor kidneys, and to the rigor with which people are screened both as donors and as recipients. I'm angry at the twisted thinking that goes into a thought process which places unschooled and inexpert beliefs ahead of the science of medicine, when it comes to transplants. There is already a critical shortage. We can't afford to throw any available away.

[happyhoix]

A man who wanted to confront his pharmacist brother about killing people with the Covid vaccine ended up kill his brother, SIL and another woman.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1280977

The man claimed his brother ‘knew something.’

I hate how the social media anti vac disinformation can turn already mentally fragile people into murderous conspiracy nuts.

At some point this guy will get some MH help and realize there was no great conspiracy to kill people with the vaccine- but he’ll have to live with having murdered three people for the rest of his life. And his mom is still alive, what a heartbreak for her.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 6, 2021 23:17:18 GMT -5 haapai said:

Oct 6, 2021 20:36:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Did not want to create an account to read the article, so I don't know if this is correct. Is it true that the donor is donating to this individual? If so, do you think they understand the risks? 

The Times article doesn't say anything more about the donor than what's in the snippet quoted above. 

It's a fairly short article.  The hospital was not able to comment much but they did manage to get this. 

A hospital spokesman told The Denver Post that transplant patients were generally required to meet similar requirements before and after surgery, even before the pandemic. “Patients may be required to receive vaccinations including hepatitis B, MMR and others,” the spokesman told the paper in an email. “Patients may also be required to avoid alcohol, stop smoking, or prove they will be able to continue taking their anti-rejection medications long after their transplant surgery.”

IMO, the hospital is not doing the best possible job of explaining why they require all this stuff from transplant patients.  They've definitely missed their opportunity to point out that they require these vaccinations prior to surgery because they cannot reliably be done after the patient is on anti-rejection meds.  With their immune systems pretty much knocked out, they can get the shots but they are likely not to have an immune reaction and will not develop immunity. 

Maybe they explain it better to the patients, but they aren't explaining the reasoning well to the public. 

You don’t know that the hospital didn’t explain this all to the patient and the patient just heard about the need to be vaccinated being non negotiable, and their lack of vaccination kicking them out of the program.  

I would hazard a guess that this was all explained to the patient and ignored until it got to the point of scheduling surgery.  I see this all the time where people in my hip group get all bent out of shape when their surgery gets canceled as they tested positive for cotinine during their pre op testing.  Cotinine is a metabolite of nicotine and many surgeons will not do surgery on smokers.  They are warned of this, continue to smoke because the surgeon didn’t really mean it.  Like with immunization, the smoking causes an increased risks that the surgeon prefers not to take.  However, in my example the increased risk is only to the patient.  Hips are not a scarce resource for non compliant patients.  

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 7, 2021 9:40:15 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Oct 6, 2021 23:17:18 GMT -5 haapai said:

The Times article doesn't say anything more about the donor than what's in the snippet quoted above. 

It's a fairly short article.  The hospital was not able to comment much but they did manage to get this. 

A hospital spokesman told The Denver Post that transplant patients were generally required to meet similar requirements before and after surgery, even before the pandemic. “Patients may be required to receive vaccinations including hepatitis B, MMR and others,” the spokesman told the paper in an email. “Patients may also be required to avoid alcohol, stop smoking, or prove they will be able to continue taking their anti-rejection medications long after their transplant surgery.”

IMO, the hospital is not doing the best possible job of explaining why they require all this stuff from transplant patients.  They've definitely missed their opportunity to point out that they require these vaccinations prior to surgery because they cannot reliably be done after the patient is on anti-rejection meds.  With their immune systems pretty much knocked out, they can get the shots but they are likely not to have an immune reaction and will not develop immunity. 

Maybe they explain it better to the patients, but they aren't explaining the reasoning well to the public. 

You don’t know that the hospital didn’t explain this all to the patient and the patient just heard about the need to be vaccinated being non negotiable, and their lack of vaccination kicking them out of the program.  

I would hazard a guess that this was all explained to the patient and ignored until it got to the point of scheduling surgery.  I see this all the time where people in my hip group get all bent out of shape when their surgery gets canceled as they tested positive for cotinine during their pre op testing.  Cotinine is a metabolite of nicotine and many surgeons will not do surgery on smokers.  They are warned of this, continue to smoke because the surgeon didn’t really mean it.  Like with immunization, the smoking causes an increased risks that the surgeon prefers not to take.  However, in my example the increased risk is only to the patient.  Hips are not a scarce resource for non compliant patients.  

These things were all discussed, there isn't a chance they weren't. Studies show patients forget 50% of what was discussed at a visit with a physician just walking out the door. Using complicated and unusual terms makes it even more likely. These discussions take place over multiple visits with multiple people; physicians, nurse navigators, patient advocates, social workers, etc. She us just being a child, she cannot get what she wants without doing something else, and is complaining, and taken it public so she can get sympathy from like minded people. But physicians need to tell people no, they cannot get what they want all the time. 

Just as in the case of orthopedic surgery. Surgeons tell smokers no, and many have a weight cutoff, as the outcomes are worse over a certain BMI. Most reputable joint replacement programs put these limits in place. If you don't like it, you can shop around.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 6, 2021 23:17:18 GMT -5 haapai said:

Oct 6, 2021 20:36:19 GMT -5 Opti said:

Did not want to create an account to read the article, so I don't know if this is correct. Is it true that the donor is donating to this individual? If so, do you think they understand the risks? 

The Times article doesn't say anything more about the donor than what's in the snippet quoted above. 

It's a fairly short article.  The hospital was not able to comment much but they did manage to get this. 

A hospital spokesman told The Denver Post that transplant patients were generally required to meet similar requirements before and after surgery, even before the pandemic. “Patients may be required to receive vaccinations including hepatitis B, MMR and others,” the spokesman told the paper in an email. “Patients may also be required to avoid alcohol, stop smoking, or prove they will be able to continue taking their anti-rejection medications long after their transplant surgery.”

IMO, the hospital is not doing the best possible job of explaining why they require all this stuff from transplant patients.  They've definitely missed their opportunity to point out that they require these vaccinations prior to surgery because they cannot reliably be done after the patient is on anti-rejection meds.  With their immune systems pretty much knocked out, they can get the shots but they are likely not to have an immune reaction and will not develop immunity. 

Maybe they explain it better to the patients, but they aren't explaining the reasoning well to the public. 

We've had a few people on the boards here who have listed out the extensive counseling and screening done to get on the transplant list or become a donor.  

The idea they blindsided her with the COVID shot is ridiculous.  It's been out for half a year now she had plenty of time and the doctors have had plenty of time to discuss it with her before she got to scheduling her surgery.   She is the one choosing to forgo the kidney rather than get the dang shot.  That's her choice.   

Organs are precious and if you aren't going to follow this rule why should the doctors believe you'll follow the rest of them?  What if someone manages to convince her that her anti-rejection drugs are against God?

[anciana]

Oct 7, 2021 10:08:57 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 7, 2021 9:40:15 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

You don’t know that the hospital didn’t explain this all to the patient and the patient just heard about the need to be vaccinated being non negotiable, and their lack of vaccination kicking them out of the program.  

I would hazard a guess that this was all explained to the patient and ignored until it got to the point of scheduling surgery.  I see this all the time where people in my hip group get all bent out of shape when their surgery gets canceled as they tested positive for cotinine during their pre op testing.  Cotinine is a metabolite of nicotine and many surgeons will not do surgery on smokers.  They are warned of this, continue to smoke because the surgeon didn’t really mean it.  Like with immunization, the smoking causes an increased risks that the surgeon prefers not to take.  However, in my example the increased risk is only to the patient.  Hips are not a scarce resource for non compliant patients.  

These things were all discussed, there isn't a chance they weren't. Studies show patients forget 50% of what was discussed at a visit with a physician just walking out the door. Using complicated and unusual terms makes it even more likely. These discussions take place over multiple visits with multiple people; physicians, nurse navigators, patient advocates, social workers, etc. She us just being a child, she cannot get what she wants without doing something else, and is complaining, and taken it public so she can get sympathy from like minded people. But physicians need to tell people no, they cannot get what they want all the time. 

Just as in the case of orthopedic surgery. Surgeons tell smokers no, and many have a weight cutoff, as the outcomes are worse over a certain BMI. Most reputable joint replacement programs put these limits in place. If you don't like it, you can shop around.

The hospital said they updated their policy, but it isn't quite clear when in regards to this patient's case:

that organ transplant recipients and living donors must be vaccinated against COVID-19 "in almost all situations."
...
policy change was driven by the significantly higher mortality rate, as well as the concern that living donors could still pass on a COVID infection after testing negative.

This is when she says she found out, I would like to think there were more discussions with their medical team before sending her the letter:

The patient, Leilani Lutali, told 9NEWS she originally found out about the hospital's policy after her donor, Jaimee Fougner, was asked about her vaccination status during some testing required prior to the procedure.



"She said, 'Oh, by the way, have you been vaccinated for COVID-19?' I explained to her that no I hadn’t, and because of my religious beliefs I couldn’t be vaccinated for it," Fougner said. "And she said 'well, unfortunately, then that means your journey ends here.'”



About a week later, Lutali got a letter.



The letter, posted below, said she would be removed from the waiting list if they did not begin the process of getting vaccinated for COVID within 30 days.

[anciana]

Oct 7, 2021 10:34:55 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Oct 6, 2021 23:17:18 GMT -5 haapai said:

The Times article doesn't say anything more about the donor than what's in the snippet quoted above. 

It's a fairly short article.  The hospital was not able to comment much but they did manage to get this. 

A hospital spokesman told The Denver Post that transplant patients were generally required to meet similar requirements before and after surgery, even before the pandemic. “Patients may be required to receive vaccinations including hepatitis B, MMR and others,” the spokesman told the paper in an email. “Patients may also be required to avoid alcohol, stop smoking, or prove they will be able to continue taking their anti-rejection medications long after their transplant surgery.”

IMO, the hospital is not doing the best possible job of explaining why they require all this stuff from transplant patients.  They've definitely missed their opportunity to point out that they require these vaccinations prior to surgery because they cannot reliably be done after the patient is on anti-rejection meds.  With their immune systems pretty much knocked out, they can get the shots but they are likely not to have an immune reaction and will not develop immunity. 

Maybe they explain it better to the patients, but they aren't explaining the reasoning well to the public. 

We've had a few people on the boards here who have listed out the extensive counseling and screening done to get on the transplant list or become a donor.  

The idea they blindsided her with the COVID shot is ridiculous.  It's been out for half a year now she had plenty of time and the doctors have had plenty of time to discuss it with her before she got to scheduling her surgery.   She is the one choosing to forgo the kidney rather than get the dang shot.  That's her choice.   

Organs are precious and if you aren't going to follow this rule why should the doctors believe you'll follow the rest of them?  What if someone manages to convince her that her anti-rejection drugs are against God?

It doesn't sound you're too off base, NomoreDramaQ1015, check out what both the potential transplant donor and the recipient are saying about their beliefs and the medical decisions they are both making in the light of those:

Both Lutali and her donor Fougner said their religious beliefs are keeping them from the vaccine because vaccine manufacturers used the fetal stem cell line in development.



Fougner, who is a medical assistant and was a medic in the United States Air Force, said she is not anti-vax.



“I get my flu shot every year," she said. "I’ve been vaccinated with all my childhood vaccines. In the military, you get a few extras for wherever you travel to. So we are not anti-vax. But for me religiously – this vaccine, I cannot take.”



Fougner said after doing further research, she has realized most modern medical products use the same stem cell line, and she has stopped using them. She said she believes God forgives "sins of ignorance."

Lutali said she is further concerned about the future impact of the vaccine.



"I am choosing to not go forward with something right now because I feel like I don’t have enough information to understand what the implications are to my health in the future,” she said.

link

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 7, 2021 10:50:20 GMT -5 anciana said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:08:57 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

These things were all discussed, there isn't a chance they weren't. Studies show patients forget 50% of what was discussed at a visit with a physician just walking out the door. Using complicated and unusual terms makes it even more likely. These discussions take place over multiple visits with multiple people; physicians, nurse navigators, patient advocates, social workers, etc. She us just being a child, she cannot get what she wants without doing something else, and is complaining, and taken it public so she can get sympathy from like minded people. But physicians need to tell people no, they cannot get what they want all the time. 

Just as in the case of orthopedic surgery. Surgeons tell smokers no, and many have a weight cutoff, as the outcomes are worse over a certain BMI. Most reputable joint replacement programs put these limits in place. If you don't like it, you can shop around.

The hospital said they updated their policy, but it isn't quite clear when in regards to this patient's case:

that organ transplant recipients and living donors must be vaccinated against COVID-19 "in almost all situations."
...
policy change was driven by the significantly higher mortality rate, as well as the concern that living donors could still pass on a COVID infection after testing negative.

This is when she says she found out, I would like to think there were more discussions with their medical team before sending her the letter:

The patient, Leilani Lutali, told 9NEWS she originally found out about the hospital's policy after her donor, Jaimee Fougner, was asked about her vaccination status during some testing required prior to the procedure.



"She said, 'Oh, by the way, have you been vaccinated for COVID-19?' I explained to her that no I hadn’t, and because of my religious beliefs I couldn’t be vaccinated for it," Fougner said. "And she said 'well, unfortunately, then that means your journey ends here.'”



About a week later, Lutali got a letter.



The letter, posted below, said she would be removed from the waiting list if they did not begin the process of getting vaccinated for COVID within 30 days.

It may well be that it was updated recently. Data gets updated based on new findings. Just today, I saw a report that people who are chronic marijuana smokers had a breakthrough infection rate of 8%, tobacco smokers 7%, and nonsmokers are 3.5%. New findings come out all the time with this and require confirmation. Until you have large enough numbers(which I am sure you understand) conclusions are difficult. The findings on transplant patients is new. And they have worse outcomes. If something new came out that improved survival rate, their would be no complaint about that being instituted quickly, but because this is a political but not a medical issue, she gets coverage.

35-40 years ago, at the beginning of AIDS, treatment decisions and ideas about the disease seem to change weekly. With the information age, the flow of information seems to be even faster(for good and for bad). Therapies and decisions about how to implement them need to keep up. As I said, there are other transplant centers out there. She can find one that will transplant her if it is out there. If there is a will, there is a way.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 7, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -5 anciana said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:34:55 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

We've had a few people on the boards here who have listed out the extensive counseling and screening done to get on the transplant list or become a donor.  

The idea they blindsided her with the COVID shot is ridiculous.  It's been out for half a year now she had plenty of time and the doctors have had plenty of time to discuss it with her before she got to scheduling her surgery.   She is the one choosing to forgo the kidney rather than get the dang shot.  That's her choice.   

Organs are precious and if you aren't going to follow this rule why should the doctors believe you'll follow the rest of them?  What if someone manages to convince her that her anti-rejection drugs are against God?

It doesn't sound you're too off base, NomoreDramaQ1015 , check out what both the potential transplant donor and the recipient are saying about their beliefs and the medical decisions they are both making in the light of those:

Both Lutali and her donor Fougner said their religious beliefs are keeping them from the vaccine because vaccine manufacturers used the fetal stem cell line in development.



Fougner, who is a medical assistant and was a medic in the United States Air Force, said she is not anti-vax.



“I get my flu shot every year," she said. "I’ve been vaccinated with all my childhood vaccines. In the military, you get a few extras for wherever you travel to. So we are not anti-vax. But for me religiously – this vaccine, I cannot take.”



Fougner said after doing further research, she has realized most modern medical products use the same stem cell line, and she has stopped using them. She said she believes God forgives "sins of ignorance."

Lutali said she is further concerned about the future impact of the vaccine.



"I am choosing to not go forward with something right now because I feel like I don’t have enough information to understand what the implications are to my health in the future,” she said.

link

So then why is this an issue?  She has decided that since most medical science (including that for the use of anti rejection drugs for a kidney) have used fetal cells in development, then a kidney transplant should be off the table altogether.  You don’t get to pick and choose your drugs.  

I have no idea what  drugs are used in kidney dialysis, or those she is taking to try to optimize the kidney function she has but chances are they were once tested on fetal cells in culture.  

The implications to her health, without the kidney transplant, is that she will die.  Maybe not now, but long term dialysis ultimately will cause problems.  IOW, regardless of her taking the vaccine, her health sucks.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 7, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -5 anciana said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:34:55 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

We've had a few people on the boards here who have listed out the extensive counseling and screening done to get on the transplant list or become a donor.  

The idea they blindsided her with the COVID shot is ridiculous.  It's been out for half a year now she had plenty of time and the doctors have had plenty of time to discuss it with her before she got to scheduling her surgery.   She is the one choosing to forgo the kidney rather than get the dang shot.  That's her choice.   

Organs are precious and if you aren't going to follow this rule why should the doctors believe you'll follow the rest of them?  What if someone manages to convince her that her anti-rejection drugs are against God?

It doesn't sound you're too off base, NomoreDramaQ1015 , check out what both the potential transplant donor and the recipient are saying about their beliefs and the medical decisions they are both making in the light of those:

Both Lutali and her donor Fougner said their religious beliefs are keeping them from the vaccine because vaccine manufacturers used the fetal stem cell line in development.



Fougner, who is a medical assistant and was a medic in the United States Air Force, said she is not anti-vax.



“I get my flu shot every year," she said. "I’ve been vaccinated with all my childhood vaccines. In the military, you get a few extras for wherever you travel to. So we are not anti-vax. But for me religiously – this vaccine, I cannot take.”



Fougner said after doing further research, she has realized most modern medical products use the same stem cell line, and she has stopped using them. She said she believes God forgives "sins of ignorance."

Lutali said she is further concerned about the future impact of the vaccine.



"I am choosing to not go forward with something right now because I feel like I don’t have enough information to understand what the implications are to my health in the future,” she said.

link

Choices have consequences. She is allowed to refuse any medical intervention she wants, for whatever reason. What she cannot demand is for medicine to go against the standard of care.

She can always get a transplant when she has enough information to accept the medical requirements. Kidney transplants are elective surgery, especially with a live donor

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 7, 2021 11:01:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:50:20 GMT -5 anciana said:

The hospital said they updated their policy, but it isn't quite clear when in regards to this patient's case:
This is when she says she found out, I would like to think there were more discussions with their medical team before sending her the letter:

It may well be that it was updated recently. Data gets updated based on new findings. Just today, I saw a report that people who are chronic marijuana smokers had a breakthrough infection rate of 8%, tobacco smokers 7%, and nonsmokers are 3.5%. New findings come out all the time with this and require confirmation. Until you have large enough numbers(which I am sure you understand) conclusions are difficult. The findings on transplant patients is new. And they have worse outcomes. If something new came out that improved survival rate, their would be no complaint about that being instituted quickly, but because this is a political but not a medical issue, she gets coverage.

35-40 years ago, at the beginning of AIDS, treatment decisions and ideas about the disease seem to change weekly. With the information age, the flow of information seems to be even faster(for good and for bad). Therapies and decisions about how to implement them need to keep up. As I said, there are other transplant centers out there. She can find one that will transplant her if it is out there. If there is a will, there is a way.

I think that for the first time we are getting more data in ‘real time’ than ever before.  Normally, unless there is a very critical reason (like AIDS and covid), trials are not so closely scrutinized such that the minute they become statistically significant, they get stopped and announcements made.  

The amount of effort to continually monitor data in real time is a royal pain in the ass.  Only once have I ever run a trial in real time, and it is a total time suck in efficiency and cost.  

It will be interesting to see if she can find another center to do a transplant with a donor in hand.  Aren’t statistics  are maintained by hospitals in order to maintain their ability to be accepted as a transplant center for organs?

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2021 9:11:41 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

A man who wanted to confront his pharmacist brother about killing people with the Covid vaccine ended up kill his brother, SIL and another woman.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1280977

The man claimed his brother ‘knew something.’

I hate how the social media anti vac disinformation can turn already mentally fragile people into murderous conspiracy nuts.

At some point this guy will get some MH help and realize there was no great conspiracy to kill people with the vaccine- but he’ll have to live with having murdered three people for the rest of his life. And his mom is still alive, what a heartbreak for her.

This is awful, probably with more to come because of the mandates.

I think the people who embrace these conspiracy theories are more likely to be angry and prone to violence compared to non conspiracy group. I admire your optimism, but he is far more likely to hold onto his beliefs until death than to change them. I doubt prison has the funds to deprogram him.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 7, 2021 11:16:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Oct 7, 2021 11:01:26 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

It may well be that it was updated recently. Data gets updated based on new findings. Just today, I saw a report that people who are chronic marijuana smokers had a breakthrough infection rate of 8%, tobacco smokers 7%, and nonsmokers are 3.5%. New findings come out all the time with this and require confirmation. Until you have large enough numbers(which I am sure you understand) conclusions are difficult. The findings on transplant patients is new. And they have worse outcomes. If something new came out that improved survival rate, their would be no complaint about that being instituted quickly, but because this is a political but not a medical issue, she gets coverage.

35-40 years ago, at the beginning of AIDS, treatment decisions and ideas about the disease seem to change weekly. With the information age, the flow of information seems to be even faster(for good and for bad). Therapies and decisions about how to implement them need to keep up. As I said, there are other transplant centers out there. She can find one that will transplant her if it is out there. If there is a will, there is a way.

I think that for the first time we are getting more data in ‘real time’ than ever before.  Normally, unless there is a very critical reason (like AIDS and covid), trials are not so closely scrutinized such that the minute they become statistically significant, they get stopped and announcements made.  

The amount of effort to continually monitor data in real time is a royal pain in the ass.  Only once have I ever run a trial in real time, and it is a total time suck in efficiency and cost.  

It will be interesting to see if she can find another center to do a transplant with a donor in hand.  Aren’t statistics  are maintained by hospitals in order to maintain their ability to be accepted as a transplant center for organs?

Transplant centers outcomes are reviewed, and they are ranked by them. If they are bad enough, they can lose their accreditation. if I am not mistaken. More reason for the center to put this policy into place.  These statistics are public, I believe. If your outcomes are not up to snuff, your volumes may suffer, then you can get into a death spiral for your program.

[anciana]

Oct 7, 2021 11:05:20 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Oct 7, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -5 anciana said:

It doesn't sound you're too off base, NomoreDramaQ1015 , check out what both the potential transplant donor and the recipient are saying about their beliefs and the medical decisions they are both making in the light of those:
link

So then why is this an issue?  She has decided that since most medical science (including that for the use of anti rejection drugs for a kidney) have used fetal cells in development, then a kidney transplant should be off the table altogether.  You don’t get to pick and choose your drugs.  

I have no idea what  drugs are used in kidney dialysis, or those she is taking to try to optimize the kidney function she has but chances are they were once tested on fetal cells in culture.  

The implications to her health, without the kidney transplant, is that she will die.  Maybe not now, but long term dialysis ultimately will cause problems.  IOW, regardless of her taking the vaccine, her health sucks.

I don't know why they both thought they could get their way. Maybe because it was a direct donor-recipient relationship, and they were willing to sign waivers as if that would absolve the medical team in case something happened. Their doctors and the hospital still have to make the best medical decision.

Some of the comments I saw were saying that this might prolong her life a bit since the chances were she might not want to do everything that the doctors tell her after the surgery, and especially with mortality rate for transplant recipients who test positive for COVID ranging from 18% to 32%. That's just scary!

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 7, 2021 11:27:11 GMT -5 anciana said:

Oct 7, 2021 11:05:20 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

So then why is this an issue?  She has decided that since most medical science (including that for the use of anti rejection drugs for a kidney) have used fetal cells in development, then a kidney transplant should be off the table altogether.  You don’t get to pick and choose your drugs.  

I have no idea what  drugs are used in kidney dialysis, or those she is taking to try to optimize the kidney function she has but chances are they were once tested on fetal cells in culture.  

The implications to her health, without the kidney transplant, is that she will die.  Maybe not now, but long term dialysis ultimately will cause problems.  IOW, regardless of her taking the vaccine, her health sucks.

I don't know why they both thought they could get their way. Maybe because it was a direct donor-recipient relationship, and they were willing to sign waivers as if that would absolve the medical team in case something happened. Their doctors and the hospital still have to make the best medical decision.

Some of the comments I saw were saying that this might prolong her life a bit since the chances were she might not want to do everything that the doctors tell her after the surgery, and especially with mortality rate for transplant recipients who test positive for COVID ranging from 18% to 32%. That's just scary!

Those waivers are not worth the papers they are printed on. They would be thrown out of court because they were signed under duress. People try that approach frequently. Never works in medicine, as we are held to the standard of care

[TheOtherMe]

Original article from the Denver Post


www.denverpost.com/2021/10/05/uc-health-covid-vaccine-transplant-denial/

Quote:

UCHealth wouldn’t comment on any specific patient’s situation, but it did confirm that vaccination is a requirement for organ transplant patients “in almost all situations.” Hospital spokesman Dan Weaver said it’s common for transplant patients to be asked to meet a variety of conditions before, during and after surgery — and that predates the pandemic.

“For example,” Weaver wrote in an email to The Denver Post, “patients may be required to receive vaccinations including hepatitis B, MMR and others. Patients may also be required to avoid alcohol, stop smoking, or prove they will be able to continue taking their anti-rejection medications long after their transplant surgery. These requirements increase the likelihood that a transplant will be successful and the patient will avoid rejection.”



The letter Geitner shared states that the El Paso County patient will be removed from the hospital’s active transplant list if she does not get at least her first vaccine dose by late October.



Weaver added that transplant patients who are not vaccinated against COVID-19 face a much higher mortality rate — between 20% and 30%, he said, compared to under 2% among the general population for those who’ve tested positive for the virus.  End Quote

I support UC Health in their decision.  The goal is to save as many lives as possible as well as for the recipient to have some quality of life.

The patient still has a choice.  It's up to her.

[jerseygirl]

More Covid deaths in US for 2021 vs 2020

Terrible and in 2020 didn’t have a vaccine even if delta in 2021


www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2021/10/06/us-covid-19-deaths-for-2021-surpass-toll-from-2020/amp/

[jerseygirl]

Big demonstrations against vaccine ‘passports’ in Rome


apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-italy-mario-draghi-health-436d20f53f526a11b746c262ccf84315

[Spellbound454]

Oct 7, 2021 14:55:30 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

More Covid deaths in US for 2021 vs 2020

Terrible and in 2020 didn’t have a vaccine even if delta in 2021


www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2021/10/06/us-covid-19-deaths-for-2021-surpass-toll-from-2020/amp/

If its any consolation Professor Gilbert (and she knows more about this than most) thinks that Delta variant, as the dominant variant... is about as bad as it gets with this virus.
Many "variants of concern" have become extinct because of the prevalence of Delta. There isn't very much more it can do without altering the spike protein and if that happens the virus won't be able to get in to the cell....... She thinks it will wane in effectiveness as people get immunity until it becomes no more significant than a cold, just like the other four corona viruses we live with and don't notice.

How long it takes is anyone's guess... but there may be the first signs its starting to happen in some areas.

dailysceptic.org/2021/09/23/covid-unlikely-to-mutate-into-a-deadly-variant-says-lead-scientist-behind-astrazeneca-vaccine/

[Opti]

Oct 7, 2021 14:55:30 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

More Covid deaths in US for 2021 vs 2020

Terrible and in 2020 didn’t have a vaccine even if delta in 2021


www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2021/10/06/us-covid-19-deaths-for-2021-surpass-toll-from-2020/amp/

Covid was not widespread everywhere for all of 2020. It has been widespread for 2021. Covid really didn't hit much of the country until May of 2020. When Trump left office in January 2021, we were at 400K deaths. We may hit 800K deaths by year end. 

[jerseygirl]

Oct 10, 2021 8:48:09 GMT -5 Opti said:

Oct 7, 2021 14:55:30 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

More Covid deaths in US for 2021 vs 2020

Terrible and in 2020 didn’t have a vaccine even if delta in 2021


www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2021/10/06/us-covid-19-deaths-for-2021-surpass-toll-from-2020/amp/

Covid was not widespread everywhere for all of 2020. It has been widespread for 2021. Covid really didn't hit much of the country until May of 2020. When Trump left office in January 2021, we were at 400K deaths. We may hit 800K deaths by year end. 

Not the entire year of 2020 but also not the entire year of 2021 yet
Depressing

[pulmonarymd]

It didn't have to be this way

[seriousthistime]

It appears the kidney recipient's professed religious objection is not consistent. 

philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2021/10/06/kidney-transplant-uchealth-covid-vaccine-leilani-lutali-jaimee-fougner/

Fougner says she hasn’t received the vaccine for religious reasons. Lutali hasn’t gotten the shot because she says there are too many unknowns.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So COVID came through our house again. I remained negative and symptom free.

DH got it bad. I have no doubt if he wasn't vaccinated he would have been hospitalized. As it is his arthritis and psoriasis flaired up bad. That was actually the first sign.

Abby had a cough for three days. She brought it home. We miscalculated and thought it was a cold.

Gwen had it back in February when I did. She has had a cough and lost her sense of smell and taste.

So the "winner" is me who had it and was vaccinated. Why people wouldn't get it is beyond me. DH would also much rather be dealing with lingering knee pain than leaving me a widow.

[mollyc]

Oct 10, 2021 12:47:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So COVID came through our house again. I remained negative and symptom free.

DH got it bad. I have no doubt if he wasn't vaccinated he would have been hospitalized. As it is his arthritis and psoriasis flaired up bad. That was actually the first sign.

Abby had a cough for three days. She brought it home. We miscalculated and thought it was a cold.

Gwen had it back in February when I did. She has had a cough and lost her sense of smell and taste.

So the "winner" is me who had it and was vaccinated. Why people wouldn't get it is beyond me. DH would also much rather be dealing with lingering knee pain than leaving me a widow.

So sorry to hear about this.  Stay safe.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Everyone is recovering now. Nobody at work got it fortunately in the time before it dawned on us Abby had had it.

So whoops.

Everyone in my department is vaccinated so that says a lot about efficacy it's been three weeks now.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 10, 2021 12:47:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So COVID came through our house again. I remained negative and symptom free.

DH got it bad. I have no doubt if he wasn't vaccinated he would have been hospitalized. As it is his arthritis and psoriasis flaired up bad. That was actually the first sign.

Abby had a cough for three days. She brought it home. We miscalculated and thought it was a cold.

Gwen had it back in February when I did. She has had a cough and lost her sense of smell and taste.

So the "winner" is me who had it and was vaccinated. Why people wouldn't get it is beyond me. DH would also much rather be dealing with lingering knee pain than leaving me a widow.

Isn’t he now on Humira?  That would explain why he got it so bad despite being vaccinated.  I’m sorry you got hit again with it.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Oct 10, 2021 13:51:11 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Oct 10, 2021 12:47:25 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So COVID came through our house again. I remained negative and symptom free.

DH got it bad. I have no doubt if he wasn't vaccinated he would have been hospitalized. As it is his arthritis and psoriasis flaired up bad. That was actually the first sign.

Abby had a cough for three days. She brought it home. We miscalculated and thought it was a cold.

Gwen had it back in February when I did. She has had a cough and lost her sense of smell and taste.

So the "winner" is me who had it and was vaccinated. Why people wouldn't get it is beyond me. DH would also much rather be dealing with lingering knee pain than leaving me a widow.

Isn’t he now on Humira?  That would explain why he got it so bad despite being vaccinated.  I’m sorry you got hit again with it.

That's still in insurance limbo. I'm guessing psoriasis being an inflammatory disorder to begin with was a contributor.

It was only a matter of time. Schools in Iowa do not require quarantine after exposure so kids are sent right back.

I expected it to come from the middle school since they are dropping like flies. Every week I get at least one call. I wasn't paying attention to elementary.

So whoops. I'd be having a fit if it was 2020 but now it's just exhausting.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

What is bizarre to me is my lymph nodes swelled like balloons in my neck, thighs and under my arms.

The latter is still pretty tender.

If I hadn't had this exact response to the second shot I would be freaking out.

So odd to me no other illness has produced this before.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 10, 2021 19:25:05 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

What is bizarre to me is my lymph nodes swelled like balloons in my neck, thighs and under my arms.

The latter is still pretty tender.

If I hadn't had this exact response to the second shot I would be freaking out.

So odd to me no other illness has produced this before.

Sounds like you won’t need a booster!