tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on Feb 8, 2021 7:32:59 GMT -5
One of Washington’s leading conservative constitutional lawyers publicly broke on Sunday with the main Republican argument against convicting former President Donald J. Trump in his impeachment trial, asserting that an ex-president can indeed be tried for high crimes and misdemeanors. www.nytimes.com/2021/02/07/us/politics/charles-cooper-trump-impeachment.htmlPart of the deep state?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 8, 2021 10:54:38 GMT -5
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Trump’s First Amendment rights don’t matter for his impeachment trialFormer president Donald Trump is about to be tried in the Senate for his role in allegedly encouraging the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol by a mob intent on overturning the results of the 2020 presidential election. Trump’s lawyers and some legal scholars claim it would be unconstitutional to convict Trump, because his speech was protected by the First Amendment. When he stood on the Ellipse and told the crowd that “if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore,” and that “we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue … we’re going to the Capitol,” he may have been provocative and unwise. But, so goes the argument, he was not inciting imminent violence, according to the standards established by the Supreme Court. There is indeed a high threshold for establishing that someone has crossed the line into speech subject to criminal prosecution. Scholars disagree about whether Trump did so. But this debate misses the point: Government officials can be impeached and removed for speech that is not criminal. The First Amendment protects private citizens against criminal and civil sanctions for a wide range of speech. But it doesn’t protect government officials against impeachment and conviction. Under Supreme Court precedent, lower-level government employees have some significant protection against being fired because of their political views and speech. But the court has also made clear that higher-level policymaking employees enjoy no such protection. Indeed, high-ranking officials get fired because of their political speech all the time. Trump himself fired numerous subordinates because they expressed views he didn’t like (such as Christopher Krebs, a cybersecurity official who said the presidential election was not marked by fraud). Similarly, administrations of both parties routinely refuse to appoint people to public office whose views they disapprove of, and voters routinely refuse to support candidates for such reasons. If presidents could only be impeached if their speech crossed the line into illegality, absurd consequences would follow. For example, Congress could not impeach and remove a president who openly proclaimed his intention to turn the United States into a communist or fascist dictatorship. Congress. After all, speech advocating despotism is protected against criminal punishment by the First Amendment if uttered by a private citizen. Complete article here: link
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 8, 2021 11:24:12 GMT -5
Here is the smoking gun evidence to back impeachment of Donald TrumpAlthough the House impeachment managers have focused on events leading up to the Capitol breach last month it is the real time response of Donald Trump to the rioters that yields smoking gun evidence of his intent to incite this historic insurrection. Trump failed promptly to call off his followers or summon timely assistance to beleaguered Capitol police, despite pleas from fellow Republicans caught in the mayhem. And his own final words that day connect his inflammatory claims about a "stolen election" to the storming of the Capitol by his followers. As he watched the insurrection unfold on television, with some delight according to eyewitnesses, Trump did not demand that the rioters immediately leave the Capitol. He failed to heed the pleas of Republicans in Congress, who fearing for their lives, desperately tried calling him with no response. "We are imploring the president to help, to stand up, to help defend the United States Capitol and the United States Congress, which was under attack," said Republican Representative Anthony Gonzalez of Ohio, no coward, but a former professional football player. "We are begging, essentially, and he was nowhere to be found." When rioters breached the Capitol in full view of cameras, Trump did not appear on television to denounce the riot and call upon his followers to cease and desist. Instead, he stoked the incitement with a tweet that attacked his vice president and doubled down on grievances about a stolen election, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones." Complete article here: link
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 8, 2021 12:13:02 GMT -5
Here is the smoking gun evidence to back impeachment of Donald TrumpAlthough the House impeachment managers have focused on events leading up to the Capitol breach last month it is the real time response of Donald Trump to the rioters that yields smoking gun evidence of his intent to incite this historic insurrection. Trump failed promptly to call off his followers or summon timely assistance to beleaguered Capitol police, despite pleas from fellow Republicans caught in the mayhem. And his own final words that day connect his inflammatory claims about a "stolen election" to the storming of the Capitol by his followers. As he watched the insurrection unfold on television, with some delight according to eyewitnesses, Trump did not demand that the rioters immediately leave the Capitol. He failed to heed the pleas of Republicans in Congress, who fearing for their lives, desperately tried calling him with no response. "We are imploring the president to help, to stand up, to help defend the United States Capitol and the United States Congress, which was under attack," said Republican Representative Anthony Gonzalez of Ohio, no coward, but a former professional football player. "We are begging, essentially, and he was nowhere to be found." When rioters breached the Capitol in full view of cameras, Trump did not appear on television to denounce the riot and call upon his followers to cease and desist. Instead, he stoked the incitement with a tweet that attacked his Vice President and doubled down on grievances about a stolen election, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones."Complete article here: link In fact, if I remember that day correctly, Biden appeared on TV first to beseech that tRump call them off. It took some time (a few hours?) before he finally did so.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 8, 2021 15:22:19 GMT -5
He will be acquitted and he will declare himself vindicated and there will be fresh fuel for the Trump-fan-boy crowd.
I think this who thing is problematic. Unless they come up with something more concrete than what was in his speeches, this will be another thing that infuriates everyone on both sides.
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Feb 8, 2021 17:30:08 GMT -5
Can they use the cell phone map of people moving from the speech to the capitol as evidence? That was pretty concrete to me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 8, 2021 17:55:58 GMT -5
Can they use the cell phone map of people moving from the speech to the capitol as evidence? That was pretty concrete to me. How does that show that Trump wanted them to break windows? I don't think anyone is denying that the people who listened to Trump’s speech are the same people that stormed the Capitol. The question is if he told them to. We know all of his words - both that day and the days leading up to then. Now we are at a "reasonable man's standard". Do you think the Republican Senators know any reasonable men?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 8, 2021 19:31:48 GMT -5
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Feb 8, 2021 20:09:17 GMT -5
Can they use the cell phone map of people moving from the speech to the capitol as evidence? That was pretty concrete to me. How does that show that Trump wanted them to break windows? I don't think anyone is denying that the people who listened to Trump’s speech are the same people that stormed the Capitol. The question is if he told them to. We know all of his words - both that day and the days leading up to then. Now we are at a "reasonable man's standard". Do you think the Republican Senators know any reasonable men? You'd be surprised how many are still claiming antifa staged the coup.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 8, 2021 20:35:35 GMT -5
How does that show that Trump wanted them to break windows? I don't think anyone is denying that the people who listened to Trump’s speech are the same people that stormed the Capitol. The question is if he told them to. We know all of his words - both that day and the days leading up to then. Now we are at a "reasonable man's standard". Do you think the Republican Senators know any reasonable men? You'd be surprised how many are still claiming antifa staged the coup. Remind the folks who are still claiming antifa staged the coup that Trump said he loved them: Link: A timeline of what Trump said before Jan. 6 Capitol riot
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 8, 2021 21:37:43 GMT -5
I think this is worth a reducto ad absurdum argument.
let's say Trump arranged for the killing of Biden on Jan 19th. are we SERIOUSLY incapable of considering him for impeachment on Jan 21st?
because that is kinda where this goes, for me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 8, 2021 22:50:40 GMT -5
How does that show that Trump wanted them to break windows? I don't think anyone is denying that the people who listened to Trump’s speech are the same people that stormed the Capitol. The question is if he told them to. We know all of his words - both that day and the days leading up to then. Now we are at a "reasonable man's standard". Do you think the Republican Senators know any reasonable men? You'd be surprised how many are still claiming antifa staged the coup. Well, that one left wing anarchist was there. So, that proves it. Just because they have identified 375+ others that have a long history of right wing beliefs is meaningless.
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tbop77
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Post by tbop77 on Feb 9, 2021 6:28:45 GMT -5
How does that show that Trump wanted them to break windows? I don't think anyone is denying that the people who listened to Trump’s speech are the same people that stormed the Capitol. The question is if he told them to. We know all of his words - both that day and the days leading up to then. Now we are at a "reasonable man's standard". Do you think the Republican Senators know any reasonable men? You'd be surprised how many are still claiming antifa staged the coup. Video Documentary – The Pre-Planned Capitol Hill Protest and Riot Narrative Exposed theconservativetreehouse.com/page/3/Yep, it was all preplanned by the deep state. I just can't anymore with the party of Trump.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 9, 2021 6:47:24 GMT -5
You'd be surprised how many are still claiming antifa staged the coup. Well, that one left wing anarchist was there. So, that proves it. Just because they have identified 375+ others that have a long history of right wing beliefs is meaningless. Which on was that?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 9, 2021 10:03:33 GMT -5
Well, that one left wing anarchist was there. So, that proves it. Just because they have identified 375+ others that have a long history of right wing beliefs is meaningless. Which on was that? Hmmmm - I read it on a reasonable site. It was one guy whose history was sort of all over the place. Kinda the horseshoe political theory of extremists- but now I can't find it. Either I am mistaken and the source wasn't reliable, or maybe it was taken down for being false? Sorry about that. I thought I had done my due diligence, but alas, I can't reproduce it.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 9, 2021 10:06:32 GMT -5
He has been at BLM rallies... just like the proud boys and boogaloo bois who weee arrested for BLM rallies... but he is an instigator and his video comments show he was not a leftist. At the most generous he will spur on violence where ever... but his brother belongs to one of those right wing groups.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2021 10:35:17 GMT -5
I think this is worth a reducto ad absurdum argument. let's say Trump arranged for the killing of Biden on Jan 19th. are we SERIOUSLY incapable of considering him for impeachment on Jan 21st? because that is kinda where this goes, for me. That leads in to another question I have, if they can't impeach him can't they just charge him like a private citizen with prison penalties? Surely what he did is treasonous? That would get it out of the hands of the Senate.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 9, 2021 10:40:22 GMT -5
I think this is worth a reducto ad absurdum argument. let's say Trump arranged for the killing of Biden on Jan 19th. are we SERIOUSLY incapable of considering him for impeachment on Jan 21st? because that is kinda where this goes, for me. That leads in to another question I have, if they can't impeach him can't they just charge him like a private citizen with prison penalties? Surely what he did is treasonous? That would get it out of the hands of the Senate. The U.S. Senate is not a law enforcement agency. To charge Trump for crimes would be up to the Department of Justice or state attorney generals and law enforcement agencies.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2021 10:55:49 GMT -5
That leads in to another question I have, if they can't impeach him can't they just charge him like a private citizen with prison penalties? Surely what he did is treasonous? That would get it out of the hands of the Senate. The U.S. Senate is not a law enforcement agency. To charge Trump for crimes would be up to the Department of Justice or state attorney generals and law enforcement agencies. I know, so why don't they? They are charging other people accused of organizing it. Trump is a co conspirator.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 9, 2021 11:01:02 GMT -5
The U.S. Senate is not a law enforcement agency. To charge Trump for crimes would be up to the Department of Justice or state attorney generals and law enforcement agencies. I know, so why don't they? They are charging other people accused of organizing it. Trump is a co conspirator. On-going investigations including one in Georgia where on the weekend before the Capitol building insurrection Trump called Georgia's secretary of state asking him to change the election results so he could win the state. Link to Georgia investigation here: link
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2021 11:01:24 GMT -5
The U.S. Senate is not a law enforcement agency. To charge Trump for crimes would be up to the Department of Justice or state attorney generals and law enforcement agencies. I know, so why don't they? They are charging other people accused of organizing it. Trump is a co conspirator. It would be premature with the current congressional action underway.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 9, 2021 14:17:00 GMT -5
I think this is worth a reducto ad absurdum argument. let's say Trump arranged for the killing of Biden on Jan 19th. are we SERIOUSLY incapable of considering him for impeachment on Jan 21st? because that is kinda where this goes, for me. That leads in to another question I have, if they can't impeach him can't they just charge him like a private citizen with prison penalties? Surely what he did is treasonous? That would get it out of the hands of the Senate. I wouldn't count on that NOT happening.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 9, 2021 14:18:10 GMT -5
The U.S. Senate is not a law enforcement agency. To charge Trump for crimes would be up to the Department of Justice or state attorney generals and law enforcement agencies. I know, so why don't they? They are charging other people accused of organizing it. Trump is a co conspirator. I doubt that the Biden DOJ would do this. he is far to fluffy and conciliatory for that.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Feb 9, 2021 14:23:35 GMT -5
I think this is worth a reducto ad absurdum argument. let's say Trump arranged for the killing of Biden on Jan 19th. are we SERIOUSLY incapable of considering him for impeachment on Jan 21st? because that is kinda where this goes, for me. That leads in to another question I have, if they can't impeach him can't they just charge him like a private citizen with prison penalties? Surely what he did is treasonous? That would get it out of the hands of the Senate. This is what I think should happen. They can take their time investigating and use real tactics (instead of congressional hearing bullshit). And the DOJ would know how to build a case and be able to determine if they have enough good evidence. The impeachment process is the only tool Pelosi has - and maybe she is using it to force Republicans on the record. I just think it will backfire.
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 9, 2021 14:30:27 GMT -5
Oh god that video.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2021 15:25:52 GMT -5
Is this guy just rambling?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 15:28:27 GMT -5
Is this guy just rambling? Yup. It's just noise and nonsense.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 9, 2021 15:43:40 GMT -5
These "abandoned" people still don't get it. They assume that the Loser ever was with them, appreciated them. For the Loser they were never more than inanimate objects, tools to be used and thrown in the trash. The Loser did not abandon them. He has shown from the very first day he entered the political arena what and who he was. The Loser was vile and amoral then and he is vile and amoral now and the sooner they accept that the better it will be for them.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2021 15:47:27 GMT -5
Stream of consciousness?
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oped
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Post by oped on Feb 9, 2021 15:53:15 GMT -5
Is this guy just rambling? The twitter storm on this would be so funny if the whole thing wasn't so sad.
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